John 5.4: Angel stirred up the pool - is it biblical?

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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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925
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#41

RSM Primary English


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Do you Want to Get Well?
Author: Ray C. Stedman

READ THE SCRIPTURE: JOHN 5:1-17
I picked up the latest issue of Time Magazine last week and found that the entire issue was devoted to a celebration of Time 's sixtieth year in publishing. The theme of the magazine was, The most amazing sixty years in history. It was a review of many events of the past sixty years, a highly biased one, which centered around Time's own existence. Even for such dramatic years as the past sixty, I thought that claim was rather ludicrous. It reminded me of the man who said to me last week that his tie was the greatest thing since peanut butter! I regarded both claims as having about equal validity.
There have been some great events in the last sixty years, many of world-shaking importance, but none of them, or all of them taken together, can remotely approach the impact that has been made upon this earth and its inhabitants by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Any honest historian would have to admit that to be true. No account of the explosion of an atom bomb, a voyage to the moon, or the outbreak of a world war equals in significance the words of John in his gospel, "the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14). It is that marvelous life we are focusing on in this gospel.
The fifth chapter marks a major division in the Gospel of John. In the prologue, John introduces the life of Jesus, and in the first four chapters Jesus presents himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah. But now, in Chapter 5, John begins to trace a growing rejection of the claims of Jesus, and a growth of virulent and malicious hostility in official circles against the ministry of the Lord. As a preview of what is covered in the gospel, this rejection will gather around three remarkable acts of healing by Jesus: here, in Chapter 5, the healing of the impotent man at the pool of Bethesda; in Chapter 9, the amazing account of the opening of the eyes of the man born blind; and in Chapter 11, the greatest of our Lord's miracles, the raising of Lazarus from the dead. All of this increases the hostility against Jesus until it culminates at last in his death.
Today we will look at the first of these miracles, the healing of the impotent man, John 5:1-5:
After this [i.e., the ministry he had in Galilee] there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Hebrew called Bethzatha [Bethesda], which has five porticoes. In these lay a multitude of invalids, blind, lame, paralyzed. One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years. (John 5:1-5 RSV)​
For many years the site of this pool was lost, covered with the debris of the centuries, but about 20 years ago it was discovered and excavated. (I was in Jerusalem in 1967, shortly after the porches were discovered.) The pool is located to the north part of the Temple Mount, near what is now called St. Stephen's Gate, which is, in fact, the site of the Sheep Gate mentioned here. In these porches, set at various levels around the pool, during our Lord's time it was the habit of many to gather during feast days, hoping for a healing miracle.
If you have any Bible other than the King James Version you will notice that Verse 4 is missing. Many versions include the verse in a footnote which explains why these people were there. They believed in a rather superstitious way that from time to time when the water was troubled -- when it would rise rapidly and then sink again -- that this was caused by an angel who visited the pool, and the first man who got into it when it was so troubled would be healed. This is akin to what is found in many parts of the world today. Lourdes, in southern France, has a spa which many believe has healing capacities. The shrine of Guadalupe, in Mexico City, has thousands of crutches stacked along its walls where people have been healed in this special place where they thought they could receive a blessing from God.
The facts, of course, are that the pool of Bethesda, like many similar pools in the Jerusalem area, is an intermittent spring. At times water is released in surges from hidden reservoirs in the hills around the city, causing these springs to rise and fall suddenly. This is what gave rise to the superstition about an angel troubling the pool. Undoubtedly healings did occur there. Even today healings take place in these special areas where people go, believing they can be healed. But most of these healings can be explained psychologically. When people believe they are going to be healed, and they are in a place where healings supposedly occur, and they do the expected thing, many of them are healed. Thus the pool at Bethesda had established a reputation as a place where people could be healed.

By Ray Stedman. Authentic Christianity.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
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#42
God certainly did guide you to that article. It hammers to death your claim that the healing at the pool at Bethesda was a myth or old wives tale. "Thus the pool at Bethesda had established a reputation as a place where people could be healed."
Thank you God!
God rest the soul of pastor Ray Stedman unto his eternal peace. (1992)
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
1,355
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#43
Raphael is a made up angel. Nowhere to be found by name in the Bible. The only angel described as to heal. Connect the dots brother.
Now you're talking about made up Angels? God records every word you know.
Please remember that.

Your own declaration is wrong and by your own discussion topic reference to John 5:4. Raphael is the angel at the pool of Bethesda. Raphael is the Angel of healing. "an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond; and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water was made whole of whatsoever infirmity he lay under” (John 5:1-4)

And it is not true even further that Raphael, an Archangel, does not appear by name anywhere in the Bible. The King James 1611 version , still studied by Bible students and Christians today, contains the Book of Tobit. Therein is found Raphael.

And the Hebrew Bible contains that book also. As does the Roman Catholic Canonical Bible as well as the Orthodox Canonical Bible.
We may remember the six Deuterocanonical books that are in the RCB were removed from the Protestant versions of the Bible by the acts of Luther.
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
1,326
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63
#44
How can a myth and old wive's tale be inspired of God?
 
L

lenna

Guest
#45
I would let this go

like when you have a kite flying way way way up high and suddenly come to the end of the string and it flows through your hand before you can stop it

and your kite will reach Mars to find out what happened to the little rover dude who went dark before this thread has a resolution everyone is happy with :whistle:
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,169
925
113
#46
Doesn't it strike anyone here as odd that if the multitude of people were Jews that they would be there waiting to be the first one in to get healed on the Sabbath.
Wasn't that a focal point of the many healings that Jesus did?

So let's compare scripture with scripture we have the story here let's compare it with God using angels to heal elsewhere in the Bible.

Can you imagine the chaos this would cause if let's say only 2people I'll even give it 3 were healed per day over the multitude that seem to be going. How bitterness and anger could occure.
The man said they stepped over him. Do you think anyone pushed another out of the way to be first
Now think for a moment it's black Friday. Only 2 of the most sought after gifts are on the shelf doors open at 12pm.
Can you really commit your self in saying this is how God wanted to heal.

Why would Jesus ask him if he wanted to be healed? It would seem to me that Jesus was looking into the face of a very discouraged beaten down person who possibly thought he was better off dead than try again.

Jesus said a house divided cannot stand so here as some of you painted God heals the first person in
And the son of God has compassion on the one left out....hhhmmm.

Thanks for the criticism
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#47
Now you're talking about made up Angels? God records every word you know.
Please remember that.

Your own declaration is wrong and by your own discussion topic reference to John 5:4. Raphael is the angel at the pool of Bethesda. Raphael is the Angel of healing. "an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond; and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water was made whole of whatsoever infirmity he lay under” (John 5:1-4)

And it is not true even further that Raphael, an Archangel, does not appear by name anywhere in the Bible. The King James 1611 version , still studied by Bible students and Christians today, contains the Book of Tobit. Therein is found Raphael.

And the Hebrew Bible contains that book also. As does the Roman Catholic Canonical Bible as well as the Orthodox Canonical Bible.
We may remember the six Deuterocanonical books that are in the RCB were removed from the Protestant versions of the Bible by the acts of Luther.
The Holy Spirit stirred up the water sending the wind as a messenger, angel .

Messengers (angels) are not the power of faith the gospel .Messengers to include those seen the apostles are used to represent the power that works in those given the faith of God to believe .Walking is one of signs of the spirit moving in a person . Gaining sight is used to represent the unseen work of The Spirit pouring out spirit life .Giving ears another to understand the unseen voice .

We should discourage necromancy not promote it.

The message or prophecy. God revealing His thoughts that come as it is written .The word itself is a messenger. It worked in the Son of man a apostles, just as it works in us today. We like Jesus have the power in these vessel of clay. Death. But the power is not of the powerless, us. When it was accredited to the angel or messenger as apostles they cried out blasphemy .

The healing power of preaching the gospel

Acts14:7-10 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
And when the
people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

No likeness of God not seen

Trying to give the messengers a face would be like seeking the literal face of God .He has none. Assigning messengers as workers with familiar spirits is a abomination . The Catholic call the legion. . patron saints .gods of healing, gods of transportation gods of a legion of men as gods in the likeness of men (3500 and rising) with thousands of different kinds of workers .
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
1,355
113
#48
The Holy Spirit stirred up the water sending the wind as a messenger, angel .

Messengers (angels) are not the power of faith the gospel .Messengers to include those seen the apostles are used to represent the power that works in those given the faith of God to believe .Walking is one of signs of the spirit moving in a person . Gaining sight is used to represent the unseen work of The Spirit pouring out spirit life .Giving ears another to understand the unseen voice .

We should discourage necromancy not promote it.

The message or prophecy. God revealing His thoughts that come as it is written .The word itself is a messenger. It worked in the Son of man a apostles, just as it works in us today. We like Jesus have the power in these vessel of clay. Death. But the power is not of the powerless, us. When it was accredited to the angel or messenger as apostles they cried out blasphemy .

The healing power of preaching the gospel

Acts14:7-10 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
And when the
people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

No likeness of God not seen

Trying to give the messengers a face would be like seeking the literal face of God .He has none. Assigning messengers as workers with familiar spirits is a abomination . The Catholic call the legion. . patron saints .gods of healing, gods of transportation gods of a legion of men as gods in the likeness of men (3500 and rising) with thousands of different kinds of workers .
I see you quoted me but you are not addressing your remarks to the person whom you imagine promoted Necromancy in this discussion.

I suggest you learn where the word Angel originated. Nothing you've said there pertains to John 5.
And perhaps recall that Mary the mother of Immanuel, was given the message by an Angel of the Lord.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#49
I see you quoted me but you are not addressing your remarks to the person whom you imagine promoted Necromancy in this discussion.

I suggest you learn where the word Angel originated. Nothing you've said there pertains to John 5.
And perhaps recall that Mary the mother of Immanuel, was given the message by an Angel of the Lord.
I was not accusing anyone. It was more of a general warning.

The word angel is messenger. Apostles as sons of God are messengers (angels) . Mary was inspired by God "the messenger", by the strength of God, called Gabriel. Gabriel meaning strength of God .The Spirit of God's truth. Not a separate person .

Jesus was strengthen by the word of God that worked in Him as two working together.

No third party .The father and Son working as one God. The inspired word he heard worked in Him to strengthen him just as it works in us.

It can be seen in the parable below. Again no third party . Three is a crowd .Two walk together as one.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

We are warned of worshiping angels in that way .Puffing up ones own fleshly mind seeing things that are not there (.Colossians 2)
 
L

lenna

Guest
#50
after saying I would let this go, I will address this anyway because of the convoluted logic and scripture ripped out of context

"pottersclay, post: 4337171, member: 226182"]Doesn't it strike anyone here as odd that if the multitude of people were Jews that they would be there waiting to be the first one in to get healed on the Sabbath.
Wasn't that a focal point of the many healings that Jesus did?

1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5


So let's compare scripture with scripture we have the story here let's compare it with God using angels to heal elsewhere in the Bible.

I think you have utterly missed the point that it does not state ANYWHERE that the angel was doing the healing. He was apparently sent of God if he was of God because the scripture tells us plainly that God does send angels. Further, do you deny the passages in the OT that describe angels doing things? God is not mentioned but it is assumed, and rightly so, that God has them following His instructions because AGAIN, we are told God sends His angels.

Can you imagine the chaos this would cause if let's say only 2people I'll even give it 3 were healed per day over the multitude that seem to be going. How bitterness and anger could occure.
The man said they stepped over him. Do you think anyone pushed another out of the way to be first
Now think for a moment it's black Friday. Only 2 of the most sought after gifts are on the shelf doors open at 12pm.
Can you really commit your self in saying this is how God wanted to heal.

Yet we read how the crowds followed Jesus and pressed Him so hard He was surrounded with everyone clamoring at Him. I guess that is not how you would have done things if you were He? In fact, Jesus would go off by Himself because He was so tired of the crowds and their demands.

Why would Jesus ask him if he wanted to be healed? It would seem to me that Jesus was looking into the face of a very discouraged beaten down person who possibly thought he was better off dead than try again.

Why would Jesus spit into earth, make mud and put it on the eyes of a blind man? I guess He should have just said 'see in My name and had the man fall backward like they do in certain healing lineups. Sounds like you do not approve of Jesus doing things that do not make sense to you. You sound like the religious leaders who always questioned what Jesus did and disapproved of all He did.

Jesus said a house divided cannot stand so here as some of you painted God heals the first person in
And the son of God has compassion on the one left out....hhhmmm.

This is a gross misapplication of that scripture. let's look at it in CONTEXT

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [b]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 12:22-28


no house divided. in fact, no house at all. the verse you threw in there, has ZERO to do with the healing on any day. It has to do with Jesus rebuke to the Pharisees


Thanks for the criticism
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
1,355
113
#51
I was not accusing anyone. It was more of a general warning.

The word angel is messenger. Apostles as sons of God are messengers (angels) . Mary was inspired by God "the messenger", by the strength of God, called Gabriel. Gabriel meaning strength of God .The Spirit of God's truth. Not a separate person .

Jesus was strengthen by the word of God that worked in Him as two working together.

No third party .The father and Son working as one God. The inspired word he heard worked in Him to strengthen him just as it works in us.

It can be seen in the parable below. Again no third party . Three is a crowd .Two walk together as one.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

We are warned of worshiping angels in that way .Puffing up ones own fleshly mind seeing things that are not there (.Colossians 2)
You don't believe in Angels then?
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
1,355
113
#52
after saying I would let this go, I will address this anyway because of the convoluted logic and scripture ripped out of context

"pottersclay, post: 4337171, member: 226182"]Doesn't it strike anyone here as odd that if the multitude of people were Jews that they would be there waiting to be the first one in to get healed on the Sabbath.
Wasn't that a focal point of the many healings that Jesus did?

1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5


So let's compare scripture with scripture we have the story here let's compare it with God using angels to heal elsewhere in the Bible.

I think you have utterly missed the point that it does not state ANYWHERE that the angel was doing the healing. He was apparently sent of God if he was of God because the scripture tells us plainly that God does send angels. Further, do you deny the passages in the OT that describe angels doing things? God is not mentioned but it is assumed, and rightly so, that God has them following His instructions because AGAIN, we are told God sends His angels.

Can you imagine the chaos this would cause if let's say only 2people I'll even give it 3 were healed per day over the multitude that seem to be going. How bitterness and anger could occure.
The man said they stepped over him. Do you think anyone pushed another out of the way to be first
Now think for a moment it's black Friday. Only 2 of the most sought after gifts are on the shelf doors open at 12pm.
Can you really commit your self in saying this is how God wanted to heal.

Yet we read how the crowds followed Jesus and pressed Him so hard He was surrounded with everyone clamoring at Him. I guess that is not how you would have done things if you were He? In fact, Jesus would go off by Himself because He was so tired of the crowds and their demands.

Why would Jesus ask him if he wanted to be healed? It would seem to me that Jesus was looking into the face of a very discouraged beaten down person who possibly thought he was better off dead than try again.

Why would Jesus spit into earth, make mud and put it on the eyes of a blind man? I guess He should have just said 'see in My name and had the man fall backward like they do in certain healing lineups. Sounds like you do not approve of Jesus doing things that do not make sense to you. You sound like the religious leaders who always questioned what Jesus did and disapproved of all He did.

Jesus said a house divided cannot stand so here as some of you painted God heals the first person in
And the son of God has compassion on the one left out....hhhmmm.

This is a gross misapplication of that scripture. let's look at it in CONTEXT

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [b]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 12:22-28

no house divided. in fact, no house at all. the verse you threw in there, has ZERO to do with the healing on any day. It has to do with Jesus rebuke to the Pharisees


Thanks for the criticism
I some time ago arrived at the conclusion that PC, interesting initials, isn't here to promote the Bible or the Gospel.
I pray for them but I don't give them encouragement to continue on their downward path by paying their agenda attention. I think that just causes them to believe they may have hope some will leave the faith as they have. I can't have that. Nor be a party to it.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#53
I some time ago arrived at the conclusion that PC, interesting initials, isn't here to promote the Bible or the Gospel.
I pray for them but I don't give them encouragement to continue on their downward path by paying their agenda attention. I think that just causes them to believe they may have hope some will leave the faith as they have. I can't have that. Nor be a party to it.

I don't know them. but this was a strange op
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,169
925
113
#54
after saying I would let this go, I will address this anyway because of the convoluted logic and scripture ripped out of context

"pottersclay, post: 4337171, member: 226182"]Doesn't it strike anyone here as odd that if the multitude of people were Jews that they would be there waiting to be the first one in to get healed on the Sabbath.
Wasn't that a focal point of the many healings that Jesus did?

1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5


So let's compare scripture with scripture we have the story here let's compare it with God using angels to heal elsewhere in the Bible.

I think you have utterly missed the point that it does not state ANYWHERE that the angel was doing the healing. He was apparently sent of God if he was of God because the scripture tells us plainly that God does send angels. Further, do you deny the passages in the OT that describe angels doing things? God is not mentioned but it is assumed, and rightly so, that God has them following His instructions because AGAIN, we are told God sends His angels.

Can you imagine the chaos this would cause if let's say only 2people I'll even give it 3 were healed per day over the multitude that seem to be going. How bitterness and anger could occure.
The man said they stepped over him. Do you think anyone pushed another out of the way to be first
Now think for a moment it's black Friday. Only 2 of the most sought after gifts are on the shelf doors open at 12pm.
Can you really commit your self in saying this is how God wanted to heal.

Yet we read how the crowds followed Jesus and pressed Him so hard He was surrounded with everyone clamoring at Him. I guess that is not how you would have done things if you were He? In fact, Jesus would go off by Himself because He was so tired of the crowds and their demands.

Why would Jesus ask him if he wanted to be healed? It would seem to me that Jesus was looking into the face of a very discouraged beaten down person who possibly thought he was better off dead than try again.

Why would Jesus spit into earth, make mud and put it on the eyes of a blind man? I guess He should have just said 'see in My name and had the man fall backward like they do in certain healing lineups. Sounds like you do not approve of Jesus doing things that do not make sense to you. You sound like the religious leaders who always questioned what Jesus did and disapproved of all He did.

Jesus said a house divided cannot stand so here as some of you painted God heals the first person in
And the son of God has compassion on the one left out....hhhmmm.

This is a gross misapplication of that scripture. let's look at it in CONTEXT

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [a]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by [b]Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 12:22-28

no house divided. in fact, no house at all. the verse you threw in there, has ZERO to do with the healing on any day. It has to do with Jesus rebuke to the Pharisees


Thanks for the criticism
If you think I was saying the angel was healing you read wrong. My intentions were to show the only angel associated with healing was one named Raphael Which is not in the Bible.

You did not answer....what Jew would seek healing on the Sabbath?

In your words let's assume God sent the angel to disturb the waters if it were so then we also can assume that that is how God wanted to heal right?
Then Jesus his son enters in and speaks and tells the man to rise healing him.
If God is healing one way and Jesus another way .....that's not divided?
Jesus said I do what the father says and does. If you see me you seen the father.

Has anyone found any story or scripture referring to angelical beings being sent to heal?

All the postings I have posted say it was a believed myth dating back to Greek mythology.
Possibly believed by some who read the book of Tobit which is not scripture.

There were different sects of Jews back then and still are.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,169
925
113
#55
Now you're talking about made up Angels? God records every word you know.
Please remember that.

Your own declaration is wrong and by your own discussion topic reference to John 5:4. Raphael is the angel at the pool of Bethesda. Raphael is the Angel of healing. "an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond; and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water was made whole of whatsoever infirmity he lay under” (John 5:1-4)

And it is not true even further that Raphael, an Archangel, does not appear by name anywhere in the Bible. The King James 1611 version , still studied by Bible students and Christians today, contains the Book of Tobit. Therein is found Raphael.

And the Hebrew Bible contains that book also. As does the Roman Catholic Canonical Bible as well as the Orthodox Canonical Bible.
We may remember the six Deuterocanonical books that are in the RCB were removed from the Protestant versions of the Bible by the acts of Luther.
That was my point...how you twist things... remarkable.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#56
If you think I was saying the angel was healing you read wrong. My intentions were to show the only angel associated with healing was one named Raphael Which is not in the Bible.

You did not answer....what Jew would seek healing on the Sabbath?

In your words let's assume God sent the angel to disturb the waters if it were so then we also can assume that that is how God wanted to heal right?
Then Jesus his son enters in and speaks and tells the man to rise healing him.
If God is healing one way and Jesus another way .....that's not divided?
Jesus said I do what the father says and does. If you see me you seen the father.

Has anyone found any story or scripture referring to angelical beings being sent to heal?

All the postings I have posted say it was a believed myth dating back to Greek mythology.
Possibly believed by some who read the book of Tobit which is not scripture.

There were different sects of Jews back then and still are.

I am truly sorry you are so hung up on this

I, am not.

You apparently cannot accept the story as it appears in scripture and for some reason you want agreement from others

smh. I am leaving the thread so will not respond again.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#57
You don't believe in Angels then?
Yes I do. 'Jesus Son of man as a apostle "one sent" with prophecy the word of the father was one. He is also our high priest as the Son of God.

All prophets sent by God as apostles are messengers called angels . God used a Ass in the old testament to represent he is not served by human hands .He does the o moving of men he works in to both will and preform His good pleasure . We are strengthened by his living word . . .the treasure we have in us. The power or authority of God by which we can believe Him not seen, called faith

An angel of the lord represents the presence of the unseen lord . He uses clouds in that way also . Satan the spirit of lies his goal is .I will ascend to the clouds as the false presence of God.

Numbers 22:23-24 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,361
8,357
113
#58
Yes I do. 'Jesus Son of man as a apostle "one sent" with prophecy the word of the father was one. He is also our high priest as the Son of God.

All prophets sent by God as apostles are messengers called angels . God used a Ass in the old testament to represent he is not served by human hands .He does the o moving of men he works in to both will and preform His good pleasure . We are strengthened by his living word . . .the treasure we have in us. The power or authority of God by which we can believe Him not seen, called faith

An angel of the lord represents the presence of the unseen lord . He uses clouds in that way also . Satan the spirit of lies his goal is .I will ascend to the clouds as the false presence of God.

Numbers 22:23-24 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
You're adding error to confusion again, I see. Jesus is not an angel; Hebrews 1 and 2 make that truth abundantly clear.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,319
1,355
113
#59
Yes I do. 'Jesus Son of man as a apostle "one sent" with prophecy the word of the father was one. He is also our high priest as the Son of God.

All prophets sent by God as apostles are messengers called angels . God used a Ass in the old testament to represent he is not served by human hands .He does the o moving of men he works in to both will and preform His good pleasure . We are strengthened by his living word . . .the treasure we have in us. The power or authority of God by which we can believe Him not seen, called faith

An angel of the lord represents the presence of the unseen lord . He uses clouds in that way also . Satan the spirit of lies his goal is .I will ascend to the clouds as the false presence of God.

Numbers 22:23-24 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
Balaam's Ass was an Angel then?
You miss that in Numbers. The Angel of the Lord.
You'll believe what you want to about Angels. Angels are sent from God. Jesus was not an Angel. The only sect that believes that are Jehovah Witnesses.
You're a Jehovah Witness when you claim Jesus was an Angel. Because for Jesus to have been an Angel, that means Jesus Emmanuel was not God.(with us)