KEEPING TORAH.
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Well I'd say you are partially right. Here are some more verses to shed some more Light.
2 Corinthians 3
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
There is lots of good stuff there. My prayer is for you to read it and understand.
God Bless You
hi Avinu.
which comes first brother, and why?
were you born justified?
Avinu what does Judaism (or Christianity) say about the death penalty for breaking Sabbath being annulled?
where may i find that?
Hey Zone, sorry if I was touchy in my last post, I wasn't in a very good mood last night.
We both know no one is born justified, and it doesn't matter which comes first, so I still ask what qualifies.
I don't care what judaism or christianity say about death penalty concerning Sabbath, I only care what scripture says,
I know Yeshua came and released us from the curse of Torah, but He didn't release us from keeping Sabbath the way God commands in the 4th Commandment. And if we disobey it, we will answer to Him for it when we stand before Him. No where in the NT are we released of keeping Sabbath, when in fact it speaks of Yeshua and disciples doing it constantly. Shalom, Avinu
which comes first brother, and why?
were you born justified?
Avinu what does Judaism (or Christianity) say about the death penalty for breaking Sabbath being annulled?
where may i find that?
Hey Zone, sorry if I was touchy in my last post, I wasn't in a very good mood last night.
We both know no one is born justified, and it doesn't matter which comes first, so I still ask what qualifies.
I don't care what judaism or christianity say about death penalty concerning Sabbath, I only care what scripture says,
I know Yeshua came and released us from the curse of Torah, but He didn't release us from keeping Sabbath the way God commands in the 4th Commandment. And if we disobey it, we will answer to Him for it when we stand before Him. No where in the NT are we released of keeping Sabbath, when in fact it speaks of Yeshua and disciples doing it constantly. Shalom, Avinu
Hello all, I greet you as family in Jesus Christ, or Yeshua. I honestly believe if a believer wants the real approach to Torah, the Law, going directly to the teachings of Jesus Christ should settle everything. He declared that He is not come to destroy the law, rather to complete it (fulfill it). He also stated not one point of it would be changed. He is propitiation for our sins always; sin, breaking God's law. Look at the Laws, they are beautiful and perfect, and they are no burde whatsoever to the law abiding believers. He also gave us so much leeway when He taught that the son of man is master of the Sabbath. The only truly important learning is Yeshua crucified for each one of us. He loves us so much, and come His Great Day, He will call us each by name. Blessed be Jesus Christ now and forever to the glory of God, amen. Baruch HaShem, YHVH, amen.
hi Avinu:
hey buddy - i'm sorry too. i hope you're well today.
there's zero question Jesus fulfilled perfectly every jot and tittle of The Law: both to the letter, and fully in perfect Love and Obedience.
if that isn't true we might as well eat and drink for tomorrow we die.
how is there any spotless Sacrifice for our sins without His Perfection?
whose Righteousness are we cloaked in?
i'm not in any way saying NOT to observe the Sabbath as you feel convicted and edified Avinu, but the Bible is clear that Jesus gave them rest, something joshua could not do.
His yoke is NOT heavy, and the Laws of Sabbath were not written in my heart when i was raised from the dead. the greater spiritual principle of rest from labour under bondage to sin and resting in the Lord's ways WAS.
it took me several years to even grasp what was in Moses - was it not then already too late for me to be pleasing or displeasing to God?
~
having said that, re: Sabbath
is it possible for you to make a post Avinu showing by The New Testament that we are required to fulfill the Sabbath every 7 days? i really have to see a clear and definitive statement that this is required, as in God will be angry with us for not keeping the Sabbath as it was given at Sinai (which as a gentile i understand that the Sinai Covenant was NEVER given to me....God's moral Laws were in my conscience (i found out later), He made certain of that - but i was NEVER among the children at Sinai and that sign was not addressed to me).
neither was circumcision proscribed for my male children.
if we are to keep the Sabbath or incur God's disfavour, how is it we must keep the Sabbath on the one hand, yet on the other hand if we break it we have mercy and grace in the death of Christ to escape the death penalty?
can we really say there is no penalty anymore for breaking the Sabbath?
There being no penalty, then there is no Law.
ERGO:
A law without a penalty is no law.
i'm open to correction on this one :
in fact it speaks of Yeshua and disciples doing it constantly
but i need to see where the disciples kept sabbath continually.
for example: where was Paul for the 3 years he was taught of Jesus?
and what did he do for the 14 years he was away?
and here:
Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
you know this, so my question would be, would these christians have met on the first day of the week
after having fulfilled the requirements of the sabbath?
because to my knowledge it is never stated that way. the focus immediately following the Resurrection of Jesus was liberty. not liberty to sin, but liberty to be free to worship God in spirit and in truth:
John 4
19The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
and i most assuredly would have and do expect Saul to make crystal clear that the Sinai sabbath is required to please God: but to my surprise, he NEVER does it.
Colossians 2:16
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
again, this is an important subject and one i hope we can resolve concerning what laws we fulfill oursleves in Jesus Christ? (and we do, i absolutley affirm that)
love zone.
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another thing i found interesting regarding the 7th day sabbath Avinu is a simple word search in the entire Bible, and seeing how few times it actually mentioned in the New Testament compared to the Old, and then going from there searching the context of the references, and eventually it all comes back down to Paul's instructions in the letters.
and he does not ever say 7th day sabbath is what is pleasing to the Father. not once, Avinu.
now we all know Jesus chose Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles. this is one of the ways I KNOW The Bible is true - if God's intention was to go backwards into the Covenant at Sinai, God would never have taken Saul of Tarsus, an Hebrew of Hebrews, blameless under the Law to then go to the gentiles and teach them SOME OTHER GOSPEL that what he himself had been given.
love zone.
and he does not ever say 7th day sabbath is what is pleasing to the Father. not once, Avinu.
now we all know Jesus chose Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles. this is one of the ways I KNOW The Bible is true - if God's intention was to go backwards into the Covenant at Sinai, God would never have taken Saul of Tarsus, an Hebrew of Hebrews, blameless under the Law to then go to the gentiles and teach them SOME OTHER GOSPEL that what he himself had been given.
love zone.
G
The reason that Paul never says anything about the 7th day sabbath is because the churches he was writing to at that time already kept it. They all knew that it was Cusomary to rest Friday night to Saturday night. I was what they did.
So, why would Paul have to distinguish it when it was kept by all already?
No the sabbath was never in contention until AD300 when the Church created the venerable day of the Sun - Suday - and called it the Lord's day.
Constantine united the fragmenting empire under this new religion that he called Christianity which was actually re-dressed Mithraism. We still retain customs from it to this very day.
The Church has NOT restored Sabbath, we have Christmas and Easter replacing The feasts of YHVH and in keeping with an anti-semitism that was around at that time, dumped all things "Jewish".
The sabbath is only an issue in this day - and it will be the demarkation of His people. It's in the 10 commandments - it's important.
I have heard Colossians 2 used so many times to refute Sabbath - but it is used WAY out of context. Look at it again:
I used to think that it was the other way around - but if you look at the location of the church and the culture in that area, it was the colossian church being persecuted for keeping Torah.
Shalom
So, why would Paul have to distinguish it when it was kept by all already?
No the sabbath was never in contention until AD300 when the Church created the venerable day of the Sun - Suday - and called it the Lord's day.
Constantine united the fragmenting empire under this new religion that he called Christianity which was actually re-dressed Mithraism. We still retain customs from it to this very day.
The Church has NOT restored Sabbath, we have Christmas and Easter replacing The feasts of YHVH and in keeping with an anti-semitism that was around at that time, dumped all things "Jewish".
The sabbath is only an issue in this day - and it will be the demarkation of His people. It's in the 10 commandments - it's important.
I have heard Colossians 2 used so many times to refute Sabbath - but it is used WAY out of context. Look at it again:
Col 2:16-18 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in [false] humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not [fn] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
When Paul was talking to the Colossians, they were being enticed by pagan influences - the evidence is in verse 18. The Colossian church ws keeping Torah, and the pagans around them were judging them for it.
I used to think that it was the other way around - but if you look at the location of the church and the culture in that area, it was the colossian church being persecuted for keeping Torah.
Shalom
what?
so we are to believe pagan greeks were already keeping the 7th day and that's why Paul said let no one judge you concerning those things?
they needed letters about abstaining from idols but were hip with all the Sabbath Laws? come on!
nah....
well, there are a lot of things Paul DIDN'T INSTRUCT US ON...does their omission mean they are explicit?
of course not!
see, we never have a problem til someone comes in and starts to tells that God is now enraged with us for something He never told us to do before he justified us!
we heard repent, believe on jesus and be baprised for the remsission of your sins! and we did!
NOW WHAT?
circumcision?
why must this always go here? i don't car about constantine. i want to see it in the NT!
i don't care about xmas or ishtar.
i want to see where it is clearly spelled out about 7th day sabbath in the NT.
you are a gentile, with a gentile rabbincal teacher, teacing gentiles to keep the Mosaic Law.
it's insanity.
did you go get circumcised when you converted? if not, why not?
circumcision was also an EVERLASTING SIGN.
now what?
how about circumcision was a SIGN? it's the HEART NOW.
I have heard Colossians 2 used so many times to refute Sabbath - but it is used WAY out of context. Look at it again:
so we are to believe pagan greeks were already keeping the 7th day and that's why Paul said let no one judge you concerning those things?
they needed letters about abstaining from idols but were hip with all the Sabbath Laws? come on!
nah....
well, there are a lot of things Paul DIDN'T INSTRUCT US ON...does their omission mean they are explicit?
of course not!
see, we never have a problem til someone comes in and starts to tells that God is now enraged with us for something He never told us to do before he justified us!
we heard repent, believe on jesus and be baprised for the remsission of your sins! and we did!
NOW WHAT?
circumcision?
why must this always go here? i don't car about constantine. i want to see it in the NT!
i don't care about xmas or ishtar.
i want to see where it is clearly spelled out about 7th day sabbath in the NT.
you are a gentile, with a gentile rabbincal teacher, teacing gentiles to keep the Mosaic Law.
it's insanity.
did you go get circumcised when you converted? if not, why not?
circumcision was also an EVERLASTING SIGN.
now what?
how about circumcision was a SIGN? it's the HEART NOW.
I have heard Colossians 2 used so many times to refute Sabbath - but it is used WAY out of context. Look at it again:
Col 2:16-18 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in [false] humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not [fn] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
When Paul was talking to the Colossians, they were being enticed by pagan influences - the evidence is in verse 18. The Colossian church ws keeping Torah, and the pagans around them were judging them for it.
hi Gimzani
ok.
can you please post everything about the sabbath day?
if i can see exactly what God said about it, then we can know.
i do know it's not just customary, and its not just resting.
if we think we are obeying that sabbath, but we are not going out as a group and literally stoning offenders, are we obeying the Law?
when did God change it?
thank you
zone.
ok.
can you please post everything about the sabbath day?
if i can see exactly what God said about it, then we can know.
i do know it's not just customary, and its not just resting.
if we think we are obeying that sabbath, but we are not going out as a group and literally stoning offenders, are we obeying the Law?
when did God change it?
thank you
zone.
You seemed to be trying to seperate the laws and ordinances given by Moses from the ten commandments and saying that Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the ordinances but the ten commandments we must still perform because Jesus did not fulfill that. If that is not what you were saying then I misunderstood.
I was trying to show you that the ministry of death, written on tablets of stone, is what Jesus saves us from. That the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Jesus gives life. The vail is the thinking that you can perform the law and be made clean by your own righteousness, or stay clean once cleansed by your own righteousness. Jesus cleanses, Jesus forgives sin. The law does not. The law is unbending and condemning. The law says you are a sinner and deserve death, and it is right, and just. But Jesus saves us from that, by His precious blood. See Leviticus 17:11
May God Bless You
(I hope the bigger font helps the person who asked)
I was trying to show you that the ministry of death, written on tablets of stone, is what Jesus saves us from. That the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Jesus gives life. The vail is the thinking that you can perform the law and be made clean by your own righteousness, or stay clean once cleansed by your own righteousness. Jesus cleanses, Jesus forgives sin. The law does not. The law is unbending and condemning. The law says you are a sinner and deserve death, and it is right, and just. But Jesus saves us from that, by His precious blood. See Leviticus 17:11
May God Bless You
(I hope the bigger font helps the person who asked)
It has never occurred to me that the veil or vail of Moses does anything more than keep the observers from seeing Jesus Christ (Yeshua Mashiach) when Moses is being read. I realize those who are of the Chosen of God who have not yet realized Yeshua (Jesus) continue trying ever so to be justified by the law, yet even they have a yearly Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) to atone for sins, thus recognizing their good intentions are not enough to complete the law. Now let us pray that as many as will come to the full realization of Mashiac will have that veil removed. Until then we must all remember not to judge by appearances, rather with right judgment for God stated Himself, that some are disobedient by His will, and no one can go against the will of my Dad. Meanwhile those Jews who do not yet know Yeshua but love YHVH as God Almighty are just wonderful to me, and I will not judge unto condemnation lest they turn around and tell Dad, and I am judged. Blessed be Jesus Christ, amen, or do you call Him Yeshua?
L
The Bible says in Daniel 9 that Jesus put an end to the sacrifices
Daniel 9:27
(27) And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
For more information on Daniel 9 see the thread called '70 weeks fulfilled'.
While it is true that Jesus fulfilled the Law But, it was necessary for our salvation for Him to fulfill it, for the Law demands perfection and because we have all sinned we cannot be saved but, Christ lived a perfect life for us which is transferred to us when we give our life to Him, we cannot be saved by our works but, we are saved by His.
Romans 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Isaiah 61:10
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
When we surrender our lives to him we become servants of righteousness, we cannot keep the Law ouselves we can only keep it by surrender to Him
Romans 6:18-19
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Psalms 119:172
(172) My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.Romans 3:31
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Romans 8:1-4
(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 John 2:4
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
God Bless
Daniel 9:27
(27) And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
For more information on Daniel 9 see the thread called '70 weeks fulfilled'.
While it is true that Jesus fulfilled the Law But, it was necessary for our salvation for Him to fulfill it, for the Law demands perfection and because we have all sinned we cannot be saved but, Christ lived a perfect life for us which is transferred to us when we give our life to Him, we cannot be saved by our works but, we are saved by His.
Romans 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Isaiah 61:10
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
When we surrender our lives to him we become servants of righteousness, we cannot keep the Law ouselves we can only keep it by surrender to Him
Romans 6:18-19
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Psalms 119:172
(172) My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.Romans 3:31
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Romans 8:1-4
(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 John 2:4
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
God Bless
L
Following Torah has been on my heart recently as I strive for holiness. But how do we know what laws were for Isra'el and its culture and which are laws with spiritual meanings were still meant to keep.
Like I know the eating laws are still in effect because the purpose of them was to be holy. But what about the two materials woven together law? or all the laws on purification after periods etc etc?
How do we discern which are and which arent for us?
Like I know the eating laws are still in effect because the purpose of them was to be holy. But what about the two materials woven together law? or all the laws on purification after periods etc etc?
How do we discern which are and which arent for us?
L
Hey zone
Im back now turns out i didnt realise i had received the baptism of the spirit and i was looking for something I had already received! *facepalm*
But now that I have confidence in the Spirit within me, I know I can strive with all of my being to be holy and will ultimately be completely perfect and holy when Yeshua returns. So I dont need to stay away from the computer etc to not sin, I just need yeshua and the power of the spirit!
So again, im back, and happier and more confident and deeper in a relationship with God than before. Im also more open to hearing and seeing God in everything (like peoples comments and characters etc).
Missed ya too,
Laddie.
Im back now
turns out i didnt realise i had received the baptism of the spirit and i was looking for something I had already received! *facepalm*But now that I have confidence in the Spirit within me, I know I can strive with all of my being to be holy and will ultimately be completely perfect and holy when Yeshua returns. So I dont need to stay away from the computer etc to not sin, I just need yeshua and the power of the spirit!
So again, im back, and happier and more confident and deeper in a relationship with God than before. Im also more open to hearing and seeing God in everything (like peoples comments and characters etc).
Missed ya too,
Laddie.