KEEPING TORAH.

Grandpa · Jul 16, 2011

Colossians 2:16-17 , the apostle Paul declares “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”
Romans 14:5 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

If you want to keep the Sabbath, it's okay. But if you don't that's fine too.

This is how I stand, without any intent of offending somebody's faith about the sabbath :
Jews kept the sabbath as a remembrance of God resting after creating all things. It was not a day of worship only, but of rest, even buying or selling things that day was prohibited and deserving of death. Jews at that time had to work to gain God's favor, and the sabbath was the day of rest for them after offering sacrifices and doing labor in the law.
When Jesus died in the cross He already gave us rest, so there is no need of sabbath. I could say He is my sabbath, because He is my rest. I no longer need to labor to gain my justification after God. We must worship God everyday, but the rest we already have it.

Brilliant post Kayem77. I was thinking of that first scripture too. The law puts people under the Heavy Yoke of Works. The Lord Jesus takes that yoke off with His Grace. Hallelujah to Jesus Christ

God Bless You

Avinu · Jul 16, 2011

Keyam77, Grandpa, how is it that you are blind to what Paul is saying? You both are declaring that Paul is talking against to written Word of God, He was a hardcore Torah keeper as well as Yeshua. Paul would NEVER speak against Torah, God would not go against His own Word, He is not a man and people like you two need to stop putting Him in the same defiled mind as man. Paul was talking about the Perushim, because even with Sabbath, since breaking it in the OT was a punishment by death, and now God is "oh I don't care anymore, do what you want" Then how can God's judgement be righteous? So it is you guys that are wrong. '
Malachi 3:6 "I am the Lord your God and I do not Change"

zone · Jul 16, 2011

Avinu said:

Avinu.
you are my brother. i have to say something.
The Law kills us Avinu.

if we put ourselves back under it's impossible demands we nullify what Emmanuel did.
only He fulfilled it.

to say we should or could keep the Sabbath is a complete delusion Avinu: by making that very claim without putting each other to death for leaving the house or picking up anything (for ex) makes us Law breakers, we have fallen from Grace.

The Law was given to condemn us Avinu.

please, Avinu: i'm asking you - do not bring the yoke to us - we want to LIVE.

love zone.

here's the main reason i'm so terribly concerned about the Hebrew Roots Movement Avinu ....i don't believe you are part of this, but not only can we not fulfill the Law under Moses, those who are telling us we can are presenting something else wrapped up as Moses:

Les 7 lois pour l'humanité

Jesus is God, not just a Hebrew man who wore tassels, Avinu.
that's all i have to say on this for now.

wisdomseeker · Jul 16, 2011

Avinu said:

I'm not writing this thread for responses, of course anyone is welcome to if they would please do so in love. I'm writing this more to just share why I believe keeping Torah is for today as ever before. With that said.

John 1:1-2,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 14)And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

In these verses I believe clearly that Yeshua/Jesus is the foundation of the entire Bible. Since the Bible shows that the OT is a foreshadow of Yeshua, then I believe that says Yeshua is Torah. Torah is not being under law, it is being in obedience to YHWH. It is a child obeying the rules of the house of his father.

Let me say now that this has nothing to do with sacrificial ceremonies, Yeshua is and always will be the final sacrifice for sin. I KNOW we are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest we boast. Yeshua is my Adon(Lord) and Meshiach(Messiah). Without Him I cannot enter into heaven. I also know that keeping
Torah does not earn me brownie points nor will it give me entry to heaven. With that said.

Matt. 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah(law) or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. "For assuredly, I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE TORAH(LAW) TILL ALL IS FUFILLED. "Whoever therefore breaks ONE of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7:6-9 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
"This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me.
Teachings as doctrines the
commandments of men."
"FOR LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pitchers, and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, All too well you REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, that you may keep your tradition.

Unfortunately the church has done this and became no different than the pharisees, with the different denominations, and rules, forcing people to convert to their doctrine of how to live for Yeshua instead of sticking with God's word. That is being under the law.

1st John 2:3-4 Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we KEEP His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and DOES NOT keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him.

There are so many of these verses of keeping God's commandments throughout the whole Bible, but I love how He puts it one more time at the end.

Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who DO His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Now I know if anyone responds to this, some will try to use Paul's writings to prove there point. There's one problem with that, you can't use Paul's writings to prove other scripture wrong, it doesn't work that way. If you think Paul's writing is proving other scripture wrong than it is you who have read it incorrectly. Otherwise we are doing this for nothing. Because God's word cannot ever be wrong period, which it isn't. It's us who is messing it up.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change."

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

There is no misunderstanding these verses. It is unfortunate that some just won't accept them, because they want to believe that since they are saved by grace, and they claim to believe that they have a free ride and don't have to obey.

The number one commandment is, " To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself."

What do you think that means? The greatest way you show God how much you truly love Him is keeping His commandments. Being obedient.
We can say we love Him all day with our mouth, but our actions and daily lives show the real deal. Can you go through the Ten Commandments and say you actually keep even one right. And saying no one can keep them is a cop out. That verse pertains to the pharisees who added so many rules to man saying it was of God, that even they couldn't keep them.
We as the body of Messiah have to quit making excuses for our actions and be obedient. God does not make it hard.

Matt. 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

1st John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1st John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are NOT BURDENSOME.

My prayer is that this is received with spiritual eyes and ears. I hope that this is taken into prayerful consideration, and study it for yourself. Again if anyone decides to respond, please do so in love.
Sorry it was long, because I hate long writing to read myself. Shalom, Avinu

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. clickable links

God is amazing

Love a friend in God

zone · Jul 16, 2011

zone said:

Avinu.
you are my brother. i have to say something.
The Law kills us Avinu.

if we put ourselves back under it's impossible demands we nullify what Emmanuel did.
only He fulfilled it.

to say we should or could keep the Sabbath is a complete delusion Avinu: by making that very claim without putting each other to death for leaving the house or picking up anything (for ex) makes us Law breakers, we have fallen from Grace.

The Law was given to condemn us Avinu.

please, Avinu: i'm asking you - do not bring the yoke to ME - I want to LIVE.

love zone.

here's the main reason i'm so terribly concerned about the Hebrew Roots Movement Avinu ....i don't believe you are part of this, but not only can i not fulfill the Law under Moses, those who are telling me I can are presenting something else wrapped up as Moses:

Les 7 lois pour l'humanité

Jesus is God, not just a Hebrew man who wore tassels, Avinu.
that's all i have to say on this for now.

correction: i only speak for myself.

wisdomseeker · Jul 16, 2011

And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.clickable links

in Jesus name
Love a friend in God

Avinu · Jul 16, 2011

Zone, I would like to believe that you and I have had enough conversations for you to know what and where my heart is, which you should know that in no way am I trying to put yoke on anyone, and yes I'm not apart of any movement. lol

Everything I talk about I back up with scripture. It's not like I just say something and expect people to just take my word for it. It's not about fulfilling the law under Moses, as you're aware of the biggest thing I talk about is the Ten Commandments and Feasts. Shalom, Avinu

JaumeJ · Jul 16, 2011

Keeping Torah is applicable to all who love Jesus, Yeshua, today as it was when He was here in the flesh. Unhappily, many folks raised with the tradition of Jesus being just a Christian and never a Jew cannot fathom what keeping Torah is, because if they understood, they would rejoice in keeping Torah. A very loving teacher teaches it in great simplicity, I refer to Brad Scott, when he explains that the Law will punish us (the curse) when we disobey while the same law will reward us when we keep it. This is what is mentioned in Zechariah about the flying roll being a curse for anyone who steals or commits adultery. Because we are now in Jesus Christ, if and when we slip, we are forgiven, as long as it is not wantonly perpetrated. So, the law is a curse when we disobey, but it is a blessing when we obey. The law is for law breakers a curse. We love Jesus so we do not intentionally break any law (sin), thus Jesus has fulfilled the Torah for each of us with His blessed Blood, but it is still a great blessing to keep the law. I hope this has been understandable. There is no sin in loving to obey, only glory to our Dad.............God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen. BaShem Yeshua Mashiach, amen-

zone · Jul 16, 2011

Avinu said:

i know Avinu.
let us believe what Jesus told our brother Little Paul.
love zone.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

zone · Jul 16, 2011

JaumeJ said:

Keeping Torah is applicable to all who love Jesus, Yeshua, today as it was when He was here in the flesh. Unhappily, many folks raised with the tradition of Jesus being just a Christian and never a Jew cannot fathom what keeping Torah is, because if they understood, they would rejoice in keeping Torah. A very loving teacher teaches it in great simplicity, I refer to Brad Scott, when he explains that the Law will punish us (the curse) when we disobey while the same law will reward us when we keep it. This is what is mentioned in Zechariah about the flying roll being a curse for anyone who steals or commits adultery. Because we are now in Jesus Christ, if and when we slip, we are forgiven, as long as it is not wantonly perpetrated. So, the law is a curse when we disobey, but it is a blessing when we obey. The law is for law breakers a curse. We love Jesus so we do not intentionally break any law (sin), thus Jesus has fulfilled the Torah for each of us with His blessed Blood, but it is still a great blessing to keep the law. I hope this has been understandable. There is no sin in loving to obey, only glory to our Dad.............God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen. BaShem Yeshua Mashiach, amen-

JaumeJ
are you an ethnic hebrew or a gentile?
how many times can we break the Law and not be cursed?
zone.

JaumeJ · Jul 16, 2011

The way I understood from my brother and teacher, Brad Scott, each time we break God's laws we will be punished, and I do know that in the sin is the punishment. In one of the three epistles of John we are taught that if we say we have not sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. I am totally freed of sin by the Blood of Yeshua Mashiach, but at the same time I have not reached perfection. As in the epistle of John, and according to his teaching, I cannot say I have not sin although I do my best to obey the laws, and I have always noticed that obeying the law is greatly rewarding. There have been times when I have stumbled, and I knew it by the way my life progressed during those times, but Jesus has always rescued me from any weakness with His strength. How could I possibly say I am perfect now, when God is my righteousness, and He will always be. Now I should go before I start sounding like Paul, at least how he sounds to me. I love Paul, but my inclination has always been to go directly to Jesus for the final word on any subject. God bless you, and obey the laws if you are a law abiding citizen of the Kingdom, it is a blessing always to obey..........I do not know for certain if I am Jewish by birth, however I do know I am by faith in Jesus Christ, our King, King of the Jews.

Avinu · Jul 16, 2011

So if we break the law, or give in to an adulterous act, what is the difference? Any sin that we commit at all is a breaking of God's commandments. If you sin you're breaking Torah. Torah is the revealer of sin, without it we don't even know what Yeshua died for. It boils down to people are going to believe what they want and they think that God is going to just accept it and they are dangerously wrong.

wisdomseeker · Jul 16, 2011

zone said:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.
And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.

in Jesus name

zone · Jul 16, 2011

Avinu said:

what does God accept Avinu?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

and what does that broken spirit cry? and what pleases The Lord? us? or our faith in Jesus?

Acts 2
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

~

i agree. it boils down to are people going to believe what they want or are they going to believe God and have that counted to them as righteousness.

this did Abraham. before the Law came.

Abiding · Jul 16, 2011

Well I dont know anyone who didnt study and learn from the Old Testement too. And that didnt feel compelled
to obey the commandments. I rekon I never really follow why people specialize in dividing the bible and emphasizing
one part over the other. Any more than I understand why they try to divide the Word and the Holyspirit. Id love to
chatt about it but im mentally challenged here.

Im happy tho for any persons love for any parts of scripture. It may be
not part of this thread, but there has been a move in the church to sorta ignore the Old Testement and it shows up
in alot of their understanding of doctrines.

zone · Jul 16, 2011

JaumeJ said:

The way I understood from my brother and teacher, Brad Scott, each time we break God's laws we will be punished, and I do know that in the sin is the punishment. In one of the three epistles of John we are taught that if we say we have not sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. I am totally freed of sin by the Blood of Yeshua Mashiach, but at the same time I have not reached perfection. As in the epistle of John, and according to his teaching, I cannot say I have not sin although I do my best to obey the laws, and I have always noticed that obeying the law is greatly rewarding. There have been times when I have stumbled, and I knew it by the way my life progressed during those times, but Jesus has always rescued me from any weakness with His strength. How could I possibly say I am perfect now, when God is my righteousness, and He will always be. Now I should go before I start sounding like Paul, at least how he sounds to me. I love Paul, but my inclination has always been to go directly to Jesus for the final word on any subject. God bless you, and obey the laws if you are a law abiding citizen of the Kingdom, it is a blessing always to obey..........I do not know for certain if I am Jewish by birth, however I do know I am by faith in Jesus Christ, our King, King of the Jews.

An Open Response to Brad Scott
of Wildbranch.org

Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org - Part 1: Introduction & Mountain West
Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org : Part 2 - Pure Language & Sacred Name
Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org- Part 3: Gematria & the Apostle Paul
http://www.seekgod.ca/bradscott4.htm

zone · Jul 16, 2011

wisdomseeker said:

so what's the damnable heresy(ies)?
please be detailed.

zone · Jul 16, 2011

JaumeJ said:

it's the 2nd time you've mentioned Brad Scott, so i must present what i know also.

An Open Response to Brad Scott
of Wildbranch.org

Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org - Part 1: Introduction & Mountain West
Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org : Part 2 - Pure Language & Sacred Name
Brad Scott of Wildbranch.org- Part 3: Gematria & the Apostle Paul
http://www.seekgod.ca/bradscott4.htm

zone · Jul 16, 2011

wisdomseeker said:

And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.clickable links

in Jesus name
Love a friend in God

YAY!
Jesus coming as KING!
(fulfilling Daniel 9 also)
amen.

Laodicea · Jul 16, 2011

kayem77 said:

The verses you have quoted in Colossians is talking about the 7 feasts they had through the year which were also called Sabbaths it is not talking about the 7th day Sabbath

Leviticus 23:24
(24) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

There is nothing in the Bible that talks about eating and drinking certain things on the 7th day Sabbath but, there is on the feast days which were called Sabbaths.

Also Colossians 2:14 says:-
Colossians 2:14
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
This is not a reference to the 10 commandments but to the laws written by Moses
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
(24) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
(25) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
(26) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Exodus 31:18
(18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
One Law was written by Moses the other was written by God. The handwriting mentioned in Colossians is the Law written by Moses.

Revelation 11:19
(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5
(5) And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

This means there must be a original copy of the 10 Commandments in Heaven

KEEPING TORAH.

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