Know that summer is near - we are now living in the last of the last days

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Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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When Jesus said:

Mat 24:32 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

He is not telling us to make up what “summer is nigh” means. He’s telling us us to go to the Old Testament to find out what SUMMER brings.... Its not the rebirth of Israel in 1947.

Hint, what happens in the summer is given in Amos chapter 8.
the coming of the Son of Man spoken of in Matt. 24 did not happen in AD 70
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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the coming of the Son of Man spoken of in Matt. 24 did not happen in AD 70
I agree, it happened at the resurrection when he returned from the heart of the earth with the resurrected Old Testament saints.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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I agree, it happened at the resurrection when he returned from the heart of the earth with the resurrected Old Testament saints.
Interesting view. How does this view correlate with verses 27 and verses 29-31?
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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the coming of the Son of Man spoken of in Matt. 24 did not happen in AD 70
Matt 24: 29-30, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Macabeus, I see that you are reading this passage in Matt 24 with a futurist mindset. I would suggest to you that there is an alternate way to read this passage that fits much better.

In Mark 13 and Luke 21 which are parallels of Matt 24 the disciples ask 2 questions. When will the temple be destroyed and what will be the sign that it is about to happen. In Matthew you have 3 questions. The third question is "What will be the sign of the end of the age?".

The first 2 questions in Matthew are the same as Mark and Luke but the 2nd question has different wording in Matthew. "The sign of your coming" in Matthew is the same as "the sign that these things will be fulfilled (about the destruction of the temple) in Mark and Luke.

Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The sign of His coming was the "abomination of desolation" which Luke tells us are the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

This desolation would be "the sign in heaven" to the Jewish leaders that "Jesus is ruling and reigning in Heaven" and that even though they had rejected Him, God had set Him up as ruler of the universe.

The third question, only contained in Matthew, is about the "sign of the end of the age". This is why Matthew's Olivet discourse is so much longer than Mark and Luke's. Matthew is addressing the end of the world and Christ's second coming.

Jesus tells us there will be no sign in verse 36. There were plenty of signs leading up to Jerusalem's destruction since Matt 24: 4-34 is about A.D. 70 and before, but verse 36 begins to answer the disciples 3rd question. The end of the world. Jesus says in verse 36 there is no sign. He will come as a thief. Matthew 25 is all about the second coming and the end of the world and that is why you don't see those in Mark or Luke's Olivet discourse because their discourse's are about A.D. 70 and before primarily.

I offer this to you as another way to think about the Scriptures for your consideration. :)
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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I agree, it happened at the resurrection when he returned from the heart of the earth with the resurrected Old Testament saints.
Nobody is going to heaven. Nobody is in heaven.

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Acts 2:29-35 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

Heaven "The Kingdom of" is coming to earth. :cool:
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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As I said before, the "mark" of the beast and the "seal" of the Holy Spirit are symbolic of ownership
All reprobates have the mark of the beast, all Christians had the seal of the Holy Spirit

These are not actual marks or seals that are apparent to the eye.

If you are trying to understand Revelation, you may be running before you can walk.

lol, you think? How do you suggest we convince the beast when he comes that it's spiritual and he's not really suppose to actually kill them like it says in Revelation 13:15? That's the odd part ain't it in that if it's spiritual death then he would kill them by getting them to worship the image but if they don't and he kills them then a physical carnal death is all that's left.

And then in Revelation 19:21 if they do worship the image then they are spiritually dead because they did and then again at the beginning of the Mill. they(who are spiritually dead because they did) again are physically carnally killed and the fowls eat their flesh.

So the hurdle is to convince the beast not to physically kill them and Christ at his coming,(convince them both it's spiritual and their not suppose to physically kill them)?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
4,298
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I think you are framing the scriptures to fit a scenario of your own making soandso, "abandon all hope" of trying to reconcile your ideas View attachment 192435
That's the beauty in it. It's like someone telling us about a movie they've never watched or people quoting Josephus when they've never read it. It just jumps out at the ones who have.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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That's the beauty in it. It's like someone telling us about a movie they've never watched or people quoting Josephus when they've never read it. It just jumps out at the ones who have.
Not really bro - we know that the Jew's used Romes "coppers", so you trying to reconcile John's Rev with Josephus' account of the war is somewhat contrived.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
4,298
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Not really bro - we know that the Jew's used Romes "coppers", so you trying to reconcile John's Rev with Josephus' account of the war is somewhat contrived.

Render Caesars unto Caesar and Gods unto God?
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
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lol, you think? How do you suggest we convince the beast when he comes that it's spiritual and he's not really suppose to actually kill them like it says in Revelation 13:15? That's the odd part ain't it in that if it's spiritual death then he would kill them by getting them to worship the image but if they don't and he kills them then a physical carnal death is all that's left.

And then in Revelation 19:21 if they do worship the image then they are spiritually dead because they did and then again at the beginning of the Mill. they(who are spiritually dead because they did) again are physically carnally killed and the fowls eat their flesh.

So the hurdle is to convince the beast not to physically kill them and Christ at his coming,(convince them both it's spiritual and their not suppose to physically kill them)?
Beast with 7 heads Rev 17:9
Beast is the 7 kings that ruled Rome up to the time of the destruction of the temple (under Galba’s short rule)
The 10 horns are the 10 nations: Heruli, Suevi, Burgundian, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Anglo Saxons.

Nation Beast:
Roman Empire of John’s day
Heads = 7 kings that ruled Rome
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberious
4. Caligula (Gaius)
5. Claudius
Five have fallen (the dead kings) Rev 17:9
6. Nero

One is (reigning king of John’s day) 54-68 AD
7. Galba 68-69 AD VERY short reign
the other has not yet come ……remains a little while….

These scriptures put NERO as the reigning king.

Beast’s 10 HORNS
The Roman Empire divided among Gothic tribes
1. Heruli 2. Suevi 3. Burgundians 4. Huns 5. Ostrogoths
6. Vandals 7. Lombards 8. Franks 9. Visigoths 10.Anglo Saxons
These TEN, made the ONE ROMAN EMPIRE

Rev 19 beast is the Religion Beas

The Beast is not just one person or thing, the context will tell you which beast is referred to.
IF you can't follow this then no point in continuing
You seem to be looking to these things in the future, I look at them as in the past.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Beast with 7 heads Rev 17:9
Beast is the 7 kings that ruled Rome up to the time of the destruction of the temple (under Galba’s short rule)
The 10 horns are the 10 nations: Heruli, Suevi, Burgundian, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Anglo Saxons.

Nation Beast:
Roman Empire of John’s day
Heads = 7 kings that ruled Rome
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberious
4. Caligula (Gaius)
5. Claudius
Five have fallen (the dead kings) Rev 17:9
6. Nero

One is (reigning king of John’s day) 54-68 AD
7. Galba 68-69 AD VERY short reign
the other has not yet come ……remains a little while….

These scriptures put NERO as the reigning king.

Beast’s 10 HORNS
The Roman Empire divided among Gothic tribes
1. Heruli 2. Suevi 3. Burgundians 4. Huns 5. Ostrogoths
6. Vandals 7. Lombards 8. Franks 9. Visigoths 10.Anglo Saxons
These TEN, made the ONE ROMAN EMPIRE

Rev 19 beast is the Religion Beas

The Beast is not just one person or thing, the context will tell you which beast is referred to.
IF you can't follow this then no point in continuing
You seem to be looking to these things in the future, I look at them as in the past.

Take Josephus wars 2 and show the Jews who revolted against all those rulers from ad66-70 worshiped any of those rulers as God and bowed down to the Roman eagle image. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
4,298
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"JEWISH REVOLT" cannot equal "WORSHIP IMAGE OF ROME",,,,if they revolted at all they did not worship Caesar or it's image and receive it's mark they refused it. "Things that are different cannot be the same"...
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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The Beast is not a man unless you know someone with seven heads and ten horns. There is a false Prophet in Revelation that is said to look like a Lamb and roar like a Lion. Also John saw Christ as a slain Lamb with seven eyes and horns.

Those who take Revelation literally should check out the OT because most of the book is based on OT passages and verses. It is full of symbolism of Gods judgement. The things John saw were visions. Jeremiah saw a pot flying through the air. was it a real pot pretending to be a Drone or a vision representing a deeper reality?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Matt 24: 29-30, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Macabeus, I see that you are reading this passage in Matt 24 with a futurist mindset. I would suggest to you that there is an alternate way to read this passage that fits much better.

In Mark 13 and Luke 21 which are parallels of Matt 24 the disciples ask 2 questions. When will the temple be destroyed and what will be the sign that it is about to happen. In Matthew you have 3 questions. The third question is "What will be the sign of the end of the age?".

The first 2 questions in Matthew are the same as Mark and Luke but the 2nd question has different wording in Matthew. "The sign of your coming" in Matthew is the same as "the sign that these things will be fulfilled (about the destruction of the temple) in Mark and Luke.

Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The sign of His coming was the "abomination of desolation" which Luke tells us are the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

This desolation would be "the sign in heaven" to the Jewish leaders that "Jesus is ruling and reigning in Heaven" and that even though they had rejected Him, God had set Him up as ruler of the universe.

The third question, only contained in Matthew, is about the "sign of the end of the age". This is why Matthew's Olivet discourse is so much longer than Mark and Luke's. Matthew is addressing the end of the world and Christ's second coming.

Jesus tells us there will be no sign in verse 36. There were plenty of signs leading up to Jerusalem's destruction since Matt 24: 4-34 is about A.D. 70 and before, but verse 36 begins to answer the disciples 3rd question. The end of the world. Jesus says in verse 36 there is no sign. He will come as a thief. Matthew 25 is all about the second coming and the end of the world and that is why you don't see those in Mark or Luke's Olivet discourse because their discourse's are about A.D. 70 and before primarily.

I offer this to you as another way to think about the Scriptures for your consideration. :)
Thank you for your input. Verse 36 is pointing back to the preceding verses. But of that day and hour. Verse 36 is pointing back to the preceding verses,including verses 29-31 AND verse 35. Verse 36 and following are speaking of the same event as verses29-31, as far as I can tell, ( as I examine the whole context
And
Sorry about the typos. I'm on a cell.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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The Beast is not a man unless you know someone with seven heads and ten horns. There is a false Prophet in Revelation that is said to look like a Lamb and roar like a Lion. Also John saw Christ as a slain Lamb with seven eyes and horns.

Those who take Revelation literally should check out the OT because most of the book is based on OT passages and verses. It is full of symbolism of Gods judgement. The things John saw were visions. Jeremiah saw a pot flying through the air. was it a real pot pretending to be a Drone or a vision representing a deeper reality?
I take symbols symbolically and literal langauge literally. Its very simple to tell which one is which.

Its just not as difficult to discern as the theologians would have us believe. If I say its raining cats and dogs outside, you know its figurative for raining a lot. If I say its raining toads and birds are falling off the sky, you know its literal, since thats not how language is commonly used in english.

I also want you to know sir, i didnt write this with bad intentions AT ALL. I greatly respect you as an elder in Christ
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Btw I see some amills make an argument on Jesus saying "on the last day" about the resurrection.

Its easy to harmonize the two resurrections within a millennia by factoring in 2 Peter 3:8 & psalm 90:4
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Interesting view. How does this view correlate with verses 27 and verses 29-31?
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I'm not sure what verse 27 means. I think it may be indicating that like lightning flashing through the sky is very visible to all, so it was when then son of man returned.

I think it's also related to Matthew 28 where the angel of the Lord (Christ), whose countenance was like lightning, descended from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat on it. The stone over the tomb represent the law written on table of stone... The Angel of the Lord sitting on the stone represents dominion or victory. There's a ton of symbolism in that story.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
The carcase is a dead body... who else'sdead body could it be talking about other than Christ's? It could be talking about his body on the cross or his body in the tomb.

In the bible the eagle can represent uncleaness like a predator or it could represent believers that have eagles wings. I believe the carcase is Christ's body in the tomb and the eagles are those believers who came to the tomb that morning.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I believe the sun is Christ, The Sun of Righteousness. The moon I think is the Old Testament because the moon reflects the Light of The Sun. I believe the stars are the flesh descendants of Israel. I don't know exactly how the symbolism works but in my opinion, all of that verse points to blindness coming to Israel and the kingdom of God being taken from them and given to another nation, the royal priesthood of believers (1Pe_2:9).

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I have no idea what the sign of the Son of man in heaven is.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I believe the great trumpet is the word of God and I believe it went it out on the day of Pentecost when the cloven tongues appeared. I think it's possible that those men in the book of Acts may have been the angels (messengers, not celestial) that God sent out to gather his elect through the word of God.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I'm not sure what verse 27 means. I think it may be indicating that like lightning flashing through the sky is very visible to all, so it was when then son of man returned.

I think it's also related to Matthew 28 where the angel of the Lord (Christ), whose countenance was like lightning, descended from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat on it. The stone over the tomb represent the law written on table of stone... The Angel of the Lord sitting on the stone represents dominion or victory. There's a ton of symbolism in that story.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
The carcase is a dead body... who else'sdead body could it be talking about other than Christ's? It could be talking about his body on the cross or his body in the tomb.

In the bible the eagle can represent uncleaness like a predator or it could represent believers that have eagles wings. I believe the carcase is Christ's body in the tomb and the eagles are those believers who came to the tomb that morning.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I believe the sun is Christ, The Sun of Righteousness. The moon I think is the Old Testament because the moon reflects the Light of The Sun. I believe the stars are the flesh descendants of Israel. I don't know exactly how the symbolism works but in my opinion, all of that verse points to blindness coming to Israel and the kingdom of God being taken from them and given to another nation, the royal priesthood of believers (1Pe_2:9).

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I have no idea what the sign of the Son of man in heaven is.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I believe the great trumpet is the word of God and I believe it went it out on the day of Pentecost when the cloven tongues appeared. I think it's possible that those men in the book of Acts may have been the angels (messengers, not celestial) that God sent out to gather his elect through the word of God.
Thank you for your replies, which you obviously put thought into. I think the verse 27 indicates that the coming of the Son of Man will be widely visible, not seen merely in a local sense, as His resurrection was. Notice, it is contrasted to Him appearing in a desert or secret place, where only a few would see Him. The resurrection of certain saints at Christ's resurrection was seen by many in the Holy city, but would hardly fit the lightning shining from East to West.

All the tribes of the earth shall mourn at His coming when they see the sign of the Son of man. This passage seems to be what John was alluding to in Revelation when He said behold, He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see Him and will mourn because of Him. All of these verses seem to indicate a coming that is visible to all. The resurrection was not visible to all, nor did all tribes of the earth mourn when they saw it, nor did all the tribes of the earth see Him coming in power at that time.

More to follow
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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We are entering the twilight zone of theology here.

Oy vey!

As much as I love you guys, come on now, here is my alternative KJV1611 interpretation to Matthew 24:29-31:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I believe the sun is the sun, the moon is the moon, the stars are the stars. Cosmic disturbances ahead!

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I dont know what the specific sign is, but I know everyone will see it, as it says here and in Rev 1:7.
I believe the clouds represent....... clouds. Jesus returns in a same way as He went up on the mount of olives in Acts 1:11

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I believe the angels are angels, the trumpet is a trumpet with a great sound, which will be sounded. I believe the gathering of the elect refers to those who survived the tribulation alive and are gathered to Jerusalem.


Simple enough!
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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Thank you for your replies, which you obviously put thought into. I think the verse 27 indicates that the coming of the Son of Man will be widely visible, not seen merely in a local sense, as His resurrection was. Notice, it is contrasted to Him appearing in a desert or secret place, where only a few would see Him. The resurrection of certain saints at Christ's resurrection was seen by many in the Holy city, but would hardly fit the lightning shining from East to West.

All the tribes of the earth shall mourn at His coming when they see the sign of the Son of man. This passage seems to be what John was alluding to in Revelation when He said behold, He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see Him and will mourn because of Him. All of these verses seem to indicate a coming that is visible to all. The resurrection was not visible to all, nor did all tribes of the earth mourn when they saw it, nor did all the tribes of the earth see Him coming in power at that time.

More to follow
Good logical points.