LEGALSIM...how do you know if your a "legalist"

[JaumeJ]

Please read the entire chapter 7 of Romans. Here it is in part, since you have not referred to it.



Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15
For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.

Rom 7:16
But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17
So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

Rom 7:19
For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.

Rom 7:20
But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21
I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.

Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23
but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24
Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Claiming to keep the law is not obedience . Denying the law and its true standard while breaking the law is lawlessness. Obedience to God through faith and love in Christ is true obedience.

--

 

[kennethcadwell]

Having thought about the OP question for a while I think I have recognized the answer:

If your primary concern is your own walk with the Lord you are probably not; but if your primary interest is in other people's walk, you probably are.

Philippians 2:3-4

Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

 

[Grandpa]

Here is the thing though that I see that some over look when it comes to teaching, and when it is mentioned which I have done a couple times people get offensive on it.

The bible says keeping His laws is impossible by us alone, and even the Apostles when they heard all that the Lord said questioned Him and said who can be saved then. Because they found it impossible just like many still today see and teach. Yet Jesus did not say in His reply that it is impossible, nor did He say nobody would be saved.

His response back to the Apostles was with men (alone) it is impossible, but "with God" all things are possible.

Then He even says later on that to those who believe all things are possible, and Paul then reiterates this in Philippians 4:13 where he says he can do all things through Christ who strengthens him.
If people are still putting limitations on God and saying it is still impossible to keep His 10 commandments, and jumping on people who say they do, then they are the one's who is not letting the Lord fully work in their life. We are not alone my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, for we have the Holy Spirit in us guiding us to righteousness and not to lewdness.

That's the whole point.

If God is working in us why would we be trying to add our work to His? Why would we still be striving in our understanding to place a yoke on ourselves that we obviously can't bear? Can't lift. Can't pull.

Why not just let Gods work in us work? Why not just have faith that the Lord Jesus is perfecting us by the Spirit and not by the works of the law?

 

[michael56]

Some say when Paul spoke of dying to the law he meant the mosaic law, but not Ten Commandments themselves. In Rom 7:4-6 Paul stresses the Christian must die to the law, then he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. He had a lot of laws to choose from, but he chose:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet(one of the ten commandments).”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death Rom 7:7-11

So when Paul speaks of dying to the law, not being under the law, he means all of it

 

[JaumeJ]

Cancelling my subscription, I will leave all with the words of an old advertising campaigne:

"Got Milk?"

 

[michael56]

Can I ask? How many of you who stress obedience to the law to attain Heaven believe Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in Rom 7:14-25?

 

[kennethcadwell]

That's the whole point.

If God is working in us why would we be trying to add our work to His? Why would we still be striving in our understanding to place a yoke on ourselves that we obviously can't bear? Can't lift. Can't pull.

Why not just let Gods work in us work? Why not just have faith that the Lord Jesus is perfecting us by the Spirit and not by the works of the law?

We do who are born again, it is just that some still are confused on how the law and what law still applies.
Some do not realize that God working through them by the Holy Spirit will uphold the 10 commandments. Keeping the 10 commandments is not by our own doing, it is by love working in us by the Holy Spirit we will keep them. They do not want to realize that Paul himself even showed how walking in the Spirit of love will uphold those commandments.
Some want to try their hardest to water it down to just faith and love as the only two commandments to keep, yet once again through true faith in the Lord and walking in love will once again uphold those other commandments. They still want to point out and say nobody keeps the 10, and that is true for those who don't have the Holy Spirit.

Apostle Paul shows clearly that the Holy Spirit will guide the believer to uphold those morals, us our selves can not uphold anything, but the Holy Spirit working through us can uphold and make all things possible. People who disagree with this are still living in some doubts, and like the Lord told to the Apostles when they questioned Him; He told them you of little faith. Instead of trusting in all that He said they still questioned Him because they did not fully understand yet, which is how some still walk today. Jesus even told them He had more to say to them but they could not handle it yet, because they were still struggling with the first things He told them to do.....This is where Paul was charged to do !!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Some say when Paul spoke of dying to the law he meant the mosaic law, but not Ten Commandments themselves. In Rom 7:4-6 Paul stresses the Christian must die to the law, then he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. He had a lot of laws to choose from, but he chose:

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet(one of the ten commandments).”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death Rom 7:7-11

So when Paul speaks of dying to the law, not being under the law, he means all of it

I think you need to go back and read Paul's epistles and how he showed by walking in the Spirit and love that the born again believer will uphold the commandments. What he was speaking of there is how the law showed him his sinful nature, and he would not have known how sinful he was if it had not been for the law. What we die to is the written ordinances of the law, and not the moral aspect of it.
The written ordinances brought death, but through salvation by the Lord and God's moral laws written on our hearts and minds brings forth life.

Here is all the times the 10 commandments are mentioned and upheld in the New Testament



Old Testament New Testament
--------------- ----------------


First
Commandment
Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7 Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7


Second
Commandment
Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5


Third
Commandment
Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11 Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7


Fourth
Commandment
Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6


Fifth
Commandment
Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16 Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3


Sixth
Commandment
Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17 Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9


Seventh
Commandment
Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18 Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9


Eighth
Commandment
Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21


Ninth
Commandment
Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25


10th
Commandment
Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21 Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

 

[michael56]

I think you need to go back and read Paul's epistles and how he showed by walking in the Spirit and love that the born again believer will uphold the commandments. What he was speaking of there is how the law showed him his sinful nature, and he would not have known how sinful he was if it had not been for the law. What we die to is the written ordinances of the law, and not the moral aspect of it.
The written ordinances brought death, but through salvation by the Lord and God's moral laws written on our hearts and minds brings forth life.

Here is all the times the 10 commandments are mentioned and upheld in the New Testament



Old Testament New Testament
--------------- ----------------


First
Commandment
Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7 Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7


Second
Commandment
Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5


Third
Commandment
Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11 Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7


Fourth
Commandment
Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6


Fifth
Commandment
Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16 Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3


Sixth
Commandment
Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17 Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9


Seventh
Commandment
Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18 Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9


Eighth
Commandment
Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21


Ninth
Commandment
Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25


10th
Commandment
Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21 Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

Read it carefully:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment(one of the ten commandments), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

The law did not just reveal Paul's sinful nature, sin wrought all manner of concupiscence in Paul through his knowledge of one of the Ten Commandments, he became a worse sinner.

I can assure you, that anyone who believes Christ only died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, cannot see much victory over sin in their life according to the core message of the Apostle Paul

 

[michael56]

I. What we die to is the written ordinances of the law, and not the moral aspect of it.

You don't understand the new covenant Kenneth:

Paul is speaking of dying to a law of righteousness. He gave as an example of why he had to do that one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Read it carefully:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment(one of the ten commandments), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

The law did not just reveal Paul's sinful nature, sin wrought all manner of concupiscence in Paul through his knowledge of one of the Ten Commandments, he became a worse sinner.

I can assure you, that anyone who believes Christ only died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, cannot see much victory over sin in their life according to the core message of the Apostle Paul

I am not denying what the scripture is saying, just not interjecting what it doesn't say.
Dying to the law means he had to put off his sinful and carnal minded nature, the moral aspects still very much apply.
To deny that then you deny exactly what I showed in post #428 that shows where and how the 10 commandments through love and walking in the Spirit will still uphold those commandments. We no longer are held to sacrifices or being put to death for breaking them, however if a person continues to live in disobedience by denying to keep and not keeping them then they will face judgment and the lake of fire as Hebrews 10 clearly states for those who continue to sin willfully/deliberately after knowing the truth.
In order to sin willfully/deliberately means you continue to always break God's moral laws without repentance, and confession of them for not being brought to feel Godly sorrow for doing such. A true born again believer will feel Godly sorrow when they sin that will bring them to repentance, as Paul clearly shows because by sinning you will grieve the Holy Spirit. If a person doesn't feel that grieving then the Holy Spirit is not in them !!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

You don't understand the new covenant Kenneth:

Paul is speaking of dying to a law of righteousness. He gave as an example of why he had to do that one of the Ten Commandments.

I do understand the new covenant, and those who do not understand God's moral laws are the ones who don't.
If God's moral laws do not apply then a believer in Christ can live however they want and still receive salvation. Nowhere in the bible says that, as it over and over again says we must walk in the Spirit and Paul stresses this point more then once. And by walking in the Spirit the greatest fruit from the Spirit is love, as by walking in love you will walk in righteousness and not lewdness (sins).

Read Jude, as he was one of the original 12 and his whole epistle is about eternal life salvation........

 

[Sirk]

That's the whole point.

If God is working in us why would we be trying to add our work to His? Why would we still be striving in our understanding to place a yoke on ourselves that we obviously can't bear? Can't lift. Can't pull.

Why not just let Gods work in us work? Why not just have faith that the Lord Jesus is perfecting us by the Spirit and not by the works of the law?

wheres the fun in that? To some people I think being argumentative is a sport. I'm glad I don't have anything to prove anymore.

 

[michael56]

I am not denying what the scripture is saying, just not interjecting what it doesn't say.
Dying to the law means he had to put off his sinful and carnal minded nature, the moral aspects still very much apply.
To deny that then you deny exactly what I showed in post #428 that shows where and how the 10 commandments through love and walking in the Spirit will still uphold those commandments. We no longer are held to sacrifices or being put to death for breaking them, however if a person continues to live in disobedience by denying to keep and not keeping them then they will face judgment and the lake of fire as Hebrews 10 clearly states for those who continue to sin willfully/deliberately after knowing the truth.
In order to sin willfully/deliberately means you continue to always break God's moral laws without repentance, and confession of them for not being brought to feel Godly sorrow for doing such. A true born again believer will feel Godly sorrow when they sin that will bring them to repentance, as Paul clearly shows because by sinning you will grieve the Holy Spirit. If a person doesn't feel that grieving then the Holy Spirit is not in them !!!

I repeat, you do not understand Paul's message, or the new covenant. The Christian dies to a law of righteousness, and that includes the Ten Commandments as is obvious from Rom ch7. That chapter is the most illuminating chapter of Paul's writings in my opinion anyway.
I used to believe exactly as you do. But you see, this is what I found when I responded to an altar call.

Once I was alive without the law, but when the commandment came sin(consciousness) sprang to life, and I died(felt condemned) The commandment I believed would give me life(I could attain Heaven) if I obeyed it, instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep it. Sin through the commandment made me a worse sinner and condemned me. All manner of concupiscence was aroused in me

 

[michael56]

I do understand the new covenant, and those who do not understand God's moral laws are the ones who don't.
If God's moral laws do not apply then a believer in Christ can live however they want and still receive salvation. Nowhere in the bible says that, as it over and over again says we must walk in the Spirit and Paul stresses this point more then once. And by walking in the Spirit the greatest fruit from the Spirit is love, as by walking in love you will walk in righteousness and not lewdness (sins).

Read Jude, as he was one of the original 12 and his whole epistle is about eternal life salvation........

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb 10:16&17

 

[kennethcadwell]

I repeat, you do not understand Paul's message, or the new covenant. The Christian dies to a law of righteousness, and that includes the Ten Commandments as is obvious from Rom ch7. That chapter is the most illuminating chapter of Paul's writings in my opinion anyway.
I used to believe exactly as you do. But you see, this is what I found when I responded to an altar call.

Once I was alive without the law, but when the commandment came sin(consciousness) sprang to life, and I died(felt condemned) The commandment I believed would give me life(I could attain Heaven) if I obeyed it, instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep it. Sin through the commandment made me a worse sinner and condemned me

Apostle Paul in Romans 7 is speaking of his conversion from and unbeliever to a believer, and his conversion as he shows is not complete tell the following chapter 8. If you go by chapter 7 alone you will always have the wrong context, as he follows it up in 8 how he changed from 7 to 8 in his conversion.

And if you do not believe that love upholds the moral laws of God based within the 10 commandments then you deny what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; Ephesians 4:25......

The biggest one is Romans 13:9 where he showed love upholds the 10 commandments.....................

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb 10:16&17

Yes He will write His moral laws in our hearts and on our minds, so that through the Spirit we will keep them.

Yes our sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more after they have been repented and confessed of to receive that remission for them through Him. Keep reading in Hebrews 10 as verses 18-23 show how to receive that remission for sins through the Lord in order to enter the kingdom of heaven......

 

[michael56]

Apostle Paul in Romans 7 is speaking of his conversion from and unbeliever to a believer, and his conversion as he shows is not complete tell the following chapter 8. If you go by chapter 7 alone you will always have the wrong context, as he follows it up in 8 how he changed from 7 to 8 in his conversion.

And if you do not believe that love upholds the moral laws of God based within the 10 commandments then you deny what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; Ephesians 4:25......

The biggest one is Romans 13:9 where he showed love upholds the 10 commandments.....................

In Rom 7:7-11 Paul is speaking of when the law came to him. That would have been at an age he came to make a commitment to God as a Pharisee. However, there comes a time when further discussion is not of benefit, I believe we have reached that point
I can only repeat, I used to believe exactly as you do now. When I look back, it unsettled me to say the least to say what I thought was the right thing but in my heart I knew I could not live up to what I preached.
I sincerely hope one day the truth dawns on you, as I was fortunate to see it by the grace of God. I apologise to you if I have spoken at times as I shouldn't have done but sometimes in debate it is easy to get carried away
God Bless

 

[kennethcadwell]

In Rom 7:7-11 Paul is speaking of when the law came to him. That would have been at an age he came to make a commitment to God as a Pharisee. However, there comes a time when further discussion is not of benefit, I believe we have reached that point
I can only repeat, I used to believe exactly as you do now. When I look back, it unsettled me to say the least to say what I thought was the right thing but in my heart I knew I could not live up to what I preached.
I sincerely hope one day the truth dawns on you, as I was fortunate to see it by the grace of God. I apologise to you if I have spoken at times as I shouldn't have done but sometimes in debate it is easy to get carried away
God Bless

Wrong because Apostle Paul before his conversion into the faith was a Pharisee named Saul, and by being a Pharisee he already knew the law as that is what the Pharisees preached on and gave to the people.
He was not given the law at his conversion, as he was just making a statement that he knew how the law pointed out to him what sin was. And by God's grace he had to turn from that sinful nature and turn to Christ, by turning to Christ he was then lead to walk in the Spirit (chapter 8) and not walk in the flesh. He was no longer carnal mined with his mind set on the things of the flesh as he was back in chapter 7, as his mind is now in the Spirit and he set on the spiritual things. That spiritual mindset by the Holy Spirit will show in the born again believers outer actions. This is why the Lord said we will know those who are His by their fruit. If a born again believer can look and act just like an unbeliever then there would be no way to see the difference, but the Lord clearly says we will.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

No the law was given for its purpose by God and if your under the law your still condemned and cursed by the law...and you nor me nor any man, knew God or can know God except through Jesus Christ. Again have you read the New Testament?

Yes I have, but have you read the old testament? Read Hosea 6:6 and you will see God's heart.

Like I said to you before maybe we should consider the corruption of the word by the Pharisees instead of looking for errors in God's word.