Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

I wasn't saying that the "TARES" and "WHEAT" thing happens at different times, NO.

I'm saying THAT ^ happens at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".)

[Matt24:29-31 = Isa27:12-13... and THAT is at the "GREAT trumpet" and [for them] "to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"]

____________

I should have also included (re: the "grape" harvest, in Rev14, which I said is DISTINCT FROM "the 144,000" being the "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest--Rev14:4/Lev23:17<--the SECOND of TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23)
the following verse:

Leviticus 26:5 -
"Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely."

[note the word "threshing" ^ here is semi-related (in a round-about way) to the word "thresh / beat-out" in this Isa27:12-13 passage I'm saying parallels Matt24:29-31... at the END of the trib... and the "GREAT trumpet" (again, Numbers 10 shows the differing ways the trumpets were to be sounded, for differing PURPOSES")]

Runningman · Feb 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Jesus says the tares are harvested first in Matt 13.

The verse you showed have absolutely nothing to do with this; this is about the judgement.

Matthew 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement and not the harvesting of wicked and righteous from the earth.

Seriously, reread the verses you just showed me now that you have been shown this. You aren't making any sort of logical case for the pre-trib rapture.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Two distinct harvests.

--"WHEAT" is harvested at the [same basic] time when the "TARES" are "gathered OUT" FIRST (let grow together TILL);

[...completely DISTINCT FROM...]

--the EARLIER harvest... which is at an earlier time-slot

____________

[TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23]

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

Runningman said:

It's not.

Matthew 25:31-34 (and context) is NOT the GWTj...

Instead, verse 31 (read the words there) parallels Matthew 19:28 -

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel. [<--that's the earthly MK age]

[again... Jesus' response (to their Matt24:3 Q) is found in those TWO CHPTS (Matt24 & 25), which PARALLEL Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50--re: the time of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--NOT the GWTj time-slot (NOR "our Rapture" time-slot!)]

Absolutely · Feb 22, 2021

Runningman said:

Jesus says the tares are harvested first in Matt 13.

The verse you showed have absolutely nothing to do with this; this is about the judgement.

Matthew 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

This is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement and not the harvesting of wicked and righteous from the earth.

Seriously, reread the verses you just showed me now that you have been shown this. You aren't making any sort of logical case for the pre-trib rapture.

Lol
Your parallel verse is also at the judgement.

Read it again.
Lof is where they were sent.
Judgement

Hevosmies · Feb 22, 2021

Runningman said:

The diSpENSATIONAL gimmick has two of everything, two comings two peoples. Gatherings here there and everywhere, different KINDS of last trumpets

Absolutely · Feb 22, 2021

Hevosmies said:

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Yeah we can all see this gathering is not the same as rev 19 on billions of white horses.

Very plain.
No brainier they can not be the same thing.

Absolutely · Feb 22, 2021

Phoneman-777 said:

Actually, Protestants, or “fundamentalists” as you say, got it from the Jesuits when Protestants began adopting a new strategy — “stop protesting”.

We true Protestants have this terrible problem that prevents us a Catholic church that can’t even get milk doctrines like “salvation by grace through faith” correct should be trusted to interpret the T-bone steaks of the Word like eschatology 🤔

Well, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV, "Israel" has nothing to do with the people who occupy a tiny fragment of what was once the great Promised Land, and everything to do with the true "Abraham's seed" - those who belong to Christ which comprise the Christian church - it seems that it is your interpretation of end times prophecy which is a misapprehension.

Furthermore, there are so many plot holes with Jesuit Futurism, it's no wonder why it doesn't hold any water. For instance, how can their be 7 years of tribulation after Jesus comes as a thief when 2 Peter 3:10 KJV plainly says there won't even be 7 more minutes when Jesus comes as a thief?

At first I thought you got off of the juvenile "jesuit" name calling.
I guess not.

Very juvenile sir.

Troll type of strategies are doing nothing for honest debate.

cv5 · Feb 22, 2021

Hevosmies said:

It would be a gimmick if it weren't true. Eschatology isn't simple because you want it to be........
It is what it is and should be received as such.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

1) "LAST TRUMPET":

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet [back in 1:9-10] was [now] saying,
“Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”" - 4:1
--("LAST" in relation to "the things WHICH ARE" section of Rev [the "NOW" / "this present age [singular]" coming to its conclusion; related to "kept the word of the patient-endurance of Me" 3:10--versus "the hour of the trial" coming next in the chronology])

2) "SEVEN [judgment] TRUMPETS [set of]:

[(part of the) '...with His mighty angels INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." 2Th1:7b-8 (besides the angels with the "7 Vials" also, following these)]
--"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." - Rev8:6;
--"avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" - Lk18:8 [/Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka within the 7-yr trib (see this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase also in Rom16:20)--not merely a split-second's-worth at the END of the trib yrs

]
--"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." - Heb1:7
--"WOE, WOE, WOE... by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound" ["5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth"; "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe"; "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial poured..."]

3) "GREAT TRUMPET":

Matthew 24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13 - END of / AFTER the trib--"gather ye ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel... to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"
--from where SCATTERED--Lk21:24a;
--the still-living (believing remnant of Israel) 'saints' at the END of the trib--like Dan12:12's "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" (and other "BLESSED" passages speaking of this point in the chronology)

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Nope. A description of the Second Coming of Christ. He will come back in the same way He went to heaven.

Yes, the Second Advent.

There is no pre-trip rapture. Please provide verses that clearly indicate that Jesus takes the glorified saints back up to heaven.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Not even close. Post trib glorification has Jesus returning to earth at the SECOND Advent. Nothing about Noah or a flood.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Know what's really bizarre? Pre-tribbers cannot defend against the actual facts of Scripture.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

Here is a good example of intellectual dishonesty.

Runningman said:
"Tares gathered last" doesn't exist. I view the Bible under the belief that it doesn't contradict itself at any point.

I'm not aware of any such verses you're talking about. Just show me what you are thinking of so we can look at it."

So, he admits he's not aware of "any such verses". And He asks for "such verses" so "we can look at it".

And the poster's retort:

Absolutely said:

Then the poster gives these verses:

"Mat 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

And ends with this bit of snark:
"Omit verses then tell others they are wrong."

running man didn't omit anything. He said he was unaware of "any such verses" and then asked to see what the poster was talking about.

Instead, the poster retorts with "I knew you would never look it up". How could he? He wasn't aware of "any such verses". And he asked for them.

Then the poster ends with the charge that runningman "omits verses and tells other they are wrong".

This needs to end. There is no call for such behavior. When a poster asks for verses, they should be given without all this snarkiness.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

...of all things of which GOD SPOKE BY THE MOUTH OF his holy prophets from the age"... not "all things EVER"

--He STARTS this when He "descends" (after His "sit / seated" NOW)

"but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER/RANK" - meaning, there doesn't remain only ONE at a singular point in time; the 2W are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a time distinct from when all other 'saints' will be--"resurrected" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"

No. Verse 1 is solely about the time-slot of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--"our episynagoges UNTO HIM" (see also the wording in Num10:4; and the particular wording in 1Cor11:26)

"Blessed is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" ("the resurrection OF LIFE"--not that this is the FIRST TIME someone's been RESURRECTED--the 2W will have ALREADY BEEN, by this point in the chronology; the ones in 20:4b are simply the LAST to have died [and be resurrected], before the MK starts)

What happens immediately PRIOR TO the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1TH5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:4; i.e. the FIRST SEAL]" is that the "24 elders" (UP IN Heaven; wearing their awarded "crowns" that Paul said would be rewarded "AT THAT DAY"--not the day he DIED) are saying, "hast redeemed US" (again, BEFORE the FIRST SEAL [INITIAL "birth PANG" / Dan9:27a(26b)] is opened at the START of the trib yrs);
the CHRONOLOGY matters, here!

--(the "he, he, he" of Dan9:27a[26] IS the "who, who, who" of 2Th2:3-9a...
BOTH PASSAGES covering "the/his "BEGINNING; the/his MIDDLE; the/his END" just as the other related portions of Scripture show this SAME "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" (of the SEVEN YEARS)

FreeGrace2 · Feb 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Here's the verse:
Heaven must receive (receive and retain, to contain) him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Your comment is irrelevant. The verse is clear that Jesus remains/stays in heaven until the times of restoration. And the Trib cannot be in any way called a "restoration".

"2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events."

To be very clear, the 2W were NOT GLORIFIED. NO evidence of that. They were simply taken back to heaven, the SAME WAY they went the first time, in their physical bodies.

Rev 20:5 calls the post trib glorification of martyred saints from the trib as the FIRST resurrection. By your faulty count, that should have read "the THIRD resurrection, if you're counting Jesus as #1, and a pre-trib rapture and #2.

"3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming."

No to you. The verse speaks of "the coming of our Lord". That the SECOND Coming. There are 2 of them. First Advent when He came to earth, born of a virgin and went to the cross. Second Advent is when He returns (the second time) as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to reign for 1,000 years, before the GWT judgment.

"4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment."

Again, there is NO mention of the 2W being glorified. When Jesus was on earth He raised many people from the dead. And when He died on the cross, there were MANY people who "came out of their graves". Were all or any of them glorified? NO. They were not.

So your comments are off track by presuming the 2W were glorified. They weren't. They WILL BE glorified along with all the other dead saints according to 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4.

"5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven."

None of this says anything about glorified believers being taken back up to heaven. This is simply conjecture/construct.

What does any of this prove? Doesn't even make sense.

There are clear verses about the glorification being at the Second Advent, and ZERO verses about a U-turn back to heaven.

Then, my facts list ended with this challenge:

"These numbered facts must be proven wrong FROM SCRIPTURE (not conjecture or construct) in order to defend the pre-trib position."

What you've done is apply lots of conjecture and construct in order to come up with a pre-trib rapture. But there are still NO verses that mentions that Jesus takes the glorified saints back up to heaven.

Guojing · Feb 22, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I notice you are holding on to this verse in Acts 3:21 as a key doctrine.

Do you believe Paul saw Christ? (1 Cor 15:8, 1 Corinthians 9:1).

If so, why do you keep insisting that "Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration"?

For Paul to have seen the risen Lord (1 Corinthians 9:1), he must have descended from the 3rd heaven at least once right?

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 22, 2021

[to go along with my three LINKS I put in one post]

[quoting from that post]

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse (v.2!) grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means the following phrase is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and distinctly-->] the man of sin be revealed..."
[he is revealed at the START of the 7 yrs (v.8a/9a)--NOT the MIDDLE (v.4), nor the END (v.8b)]

This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed

All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

[end quoting that portion of the post]

____________

Do not skip back OVER AND PAST v.2 when ascertaining what v3a's "that day" is speaking of...

...it is referring to the EARTHLY TIME PERIOD (of v.2) before the rest of verse 3 goes on to tell WHAT must take place *FIRST* before it can/will "BE PRESENT" to play out upon the earth (with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME--the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK/DARKNESS" time period; Amos5:18,20; Dan7:7; Gen46:2; Jer-something:something, etc etc...])

cv5 · Feb 22, 2021

Guojing said:

I notice you are holding on to this verse in Acts 3:21 as a key doctrine.

Do you believe Paul saw Christ? (1 Cor 15:8, 1 Corinthians 9:1).

If so, why do you keep insisting that "Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration"?

For Paul to have seen the risen Lord (1 Corinthians 9:1), he must have descended from the 3rd heaven at least once right?

Absolutely correct. Quashes that argument for sure.

Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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