Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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FreeGrace2

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Hevosmies said:
Good summary of points here. Thats a case closed right there. WE GO next debate. The sheer amount of 'SPLAINING dispies gotta do is already enough to have most folks running for the hills. IF it wasnt for the itching ears being scratched by everything you wanna hear!
Lol
Pretrib rapture has Jesus in heaven until the same thing.
Good grief! Really? Pretrib rapture has Jesus making a hard U-turn after glorification of all believers. And that would be called the FIRST resurrection. BUT...Rev 20:5 calls the post trib resurrection of martyred saints the FIRST resurrection.

So, you gots two FIRSTS. How 'bout that? What say you?

You guys poorly discern most everything.
Repeat looking intently into mirror.

You do not even realize we are on the same page with the second coming TO SET UP AND RESTORE THE EARTH.
That doesn't help you with your faulty claim that Jesus makes a great big U-turn with glorified believers back up to heaven.

PSSST... we never say he touches earth.
Well, another faulty belief. He most surely does land on earth.

You guys are bizarrely blinded to what we believe.
Now, how can that be? We have thoroughly refuted your belief. Have to understand something in order to refute it.

All these years of debate and postrib rapturists have never taken the time to learn what we believe.
OK, so what are we missing regarding your view of Jesus' great big U-turn before the Trib?
 

FreeGrace2

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"""The biggest problem for pre-tribbers is the lack of any verse saying that Jesus returns to heaven with the glorified believers. That really sinks their boat"""

Says the man with ZERO postrib Rapture verses.

Not a one.
It's funny how one can make such a claim when the reverse is blatantly true. You've got NO verses that teach that Jesus comes to earth before the Trib, glorifies all believers, living and dead, and then heads back up to heaven. Zero, None, Nada.

Your boat has been sunk. in fact, it NEVER floated anyway.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Again, there is NO mention of the 2W being glorified. When Jesus was on earth He raised many people from the dead. And when He died on the cross, there were MANY people who "came out of their graves". Were all or any of them glorified? NO. They were not.

So your comments are off track by presuming the 2W were glorified. They weren't. They WILL BE glorified along with all the other dead saints according to 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4.
With regard to the "2W," we were speaking of "resurrection [meaning, 'TO STAND AGAIN" (ON THE EARTH)]" which they did.

(Before they "ascended up into Heaven")

Thus, "in the resurrection" they will be "LIKE ANGELS" (not saying this means all "in the resurrection" ASCEND INTO HEAVEN like they do, mind you ;) --see my last post, on that)




BTW, I am not suggesting they were participants of "our Rapture" (which took place well-before this point, in the CHRONOLOGY); "RAPTURE" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this PRESENT age [singular]"), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: NOT to OT saints, NOT to Trib saints, NOT to MK saints.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
"2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events."
Let me start out with this:
--Jesus said,
"I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE" - John 11:25
The verse is 1 Cor 15:23. And you go to John 11?? Why?

--re: "THE RESURRECTION" He says, "...though he were DEAD, yet SHALL he LIVE" (i.e. "resurrection")
--re: "and THE LIFE" He says, "... AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"

... so in view of this, let's talk for a minute about the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there), all of the following ppl referred to this very thing: Job 19:25-27, Daniel 12:13, Martha in John 11:24... they knew well about "resurrection [to stand again (on the earth)]"...
Sure, the resurrection of people was prophesied. But none of this supports a pre=trib rapture and trip back to heaven.

... and Jesus had said, "IN THE RESURRECTION, neither do they marry, nor are given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven." (recall, I said "resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"... so I'm not saying this verse says they'll BE in heaven like angels are, but that they'll be "LIKE ANGELS"... (so Rev20:4b is the LAST of those saints to have died, who will be RESURRECTED [to stand again (ON THE EARTH)] *for* [/in time for] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... these (and others: OT saints) will be "LIKE ANGELS" / "LIKE the ANGELS" (Jesus had said, "in the resurrection");
Again, nothing here about taking glorified saints back to heaven.

--Those in 20:4a are STILL-LIVING mortals [saints only (see Dan7:22)] (who will be the ONLY ones capable of reproducing/bearing children throughout the MK age) who will ENTER the MK age [same as the others do] but since they are STILL-LIVING mortals (like Dan12:13 and many other "BLESSED" passages), Jesus says OF THEM, "[they] SHALL NEVER DIE"... now, how can this be SO??
Wait a minute. What book are you reading the 20:4 from? Rev or another book. It's kinda hard to follow your paragraphs. If the book is Revelation, then you are quite wrong to claim those in v.4 are still living mortals. Because they have already died IN the Trib.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words clearly identify these people as Trib MARTYRS. They have died.
The blue words prove that they "came to life", meaning they are resurrected AFTER the trib, you know, the trib in which they were killed because of their testimony.

And the Bible describes THIS resurrection the FIRST one. That sinks the claim that there is a previous resurrection of people.

(Because Jesus SAID SO!, for one reason...
I haven't doubted anything that Jesus has said. But where did He EVER say he would take glorified believers back up to heaven?

And He will be REIGNING, so its all HIS CALL to sustain LIFE in such a way!! ["I AM THE LIFE"... and HE SAID SO!])
Yep. Totally agree. And this doesn't support the claim that He will take glorified believers back to heaven.

...now, this is just the INTRO to what all I hope to eventually cover on this Subject, if time (or even any interest) allows... I hope at least someone is trackin' with me here... lol
Sorry, but not happening. I fail to see how any of this supports the U-turn of Jesus with glorified believers.

What is missing from you defense is a clear verse that indicates that Jesus glorifies believers and takes them back to heaven.

What doesn't work is conjecture and construct.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Sure, the resurrection of people was prophesied. But none of this supports a pre=trib rapture and trip back to heaven.
"RESURRECTION" does NOT equal "RAPTURE"

Not all who are promised "RESURRECTION" are [also] "RAPTURED" (RAPTURE pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / ALL those saved "in this PRESENT age [singular]")


Again, nothing here about taking glorified saints back to heaven.
We were covering "RESURRECTION [to stand again (on the earth)]". That is what the OT saints were promised (NOT "RAPTURE"); and what will take place also for the Trib saints who DIE in the trib yrs: "resurrection" (where they will be "LIKE ANGELS" (but in the EARTHLY MK age!); Whereas only the "STILL-LIVING" saints will ENTER the EARTHLY MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children--and these "saints" who ENTER THUS [/LIVING], "SHALL NEVER DIE" per what Jesus SAID)
 

FreeGrace2

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With regard to the "2W," we were speaking of "resurrection [meaning, 'TO STAND AGAIN" (ON THE EARTH)]" which they did.
We do need to be clear with the words we're throwing around. I would never use your meaning of 'resurrection'.

Because we're discussing/debating the issue of when Jesus comes down and glorifies the dead and living believers. I'm simply not interesed in verses that are just about 'standing again on the earth'.

(Before they "ascended up into Heaven")
What was before the 2W ascended is that they were physically killed and laid in the street for 3.5 days. What is your point?

What is clear is that they DID NOT receive glorified bodies.

Thus, "in the resurrection" they will be "LIKE ANGELS" (not saying this means all "in the resurrection" ASCEND INTO HEAVEN like they do, mind you ;) --see my last post, on that)
No thanks. None of this supports the claim that Jesus takes glorified believers back up to heaven.

BTW, I am not suggesting they were participants of "our Rapture" (which took place well-before this point, in the CHRONOLOGY)
This is opinion without any evidence from Scripture.

"RAPTURE" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this PRESENT age [singular]"), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: NOT to OT saints, NOT to Trib saints, NOT to MK saints.
Since the Bible does NOT ever use the word 'rapture', let's stick with the biblical word of 'gathering', used in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1.

And when Jesus comes back and glorifies the dead FIRST and then the living, it is ALL those who are saved. There is no biblical support for "church only".

1 Thess 4 is clear that Jesus will be accompanied by all the dead that belong to Him (those who belong to Him- 1 Cor 15:23).

By saying "those who belong to Him", Paul OBVIOUSLY was referring to ALL the OT saints as well. Because they belong to Christ just as much as you or I.

So, Jesus literally empties the 3rd heaven of all humans and brings them with Him to earth when He then glorifies them FIRST, followed by the living believers on the earth.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Wait a minute. What book are you reading the 20:4 from? Rev or another book. It's kinda hard to follow your paragraphs. If the book is Revelation, then you are quite wrong to claim those in v.4 are still living mortals. Because they have already died IN the Trib.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
The red words clearly identify these people as Trib MARTYRS. They have died.
At some point in my post, I was speaking of those SPECIFICALLY in 20:4A (parallel Dan7:22--regarding those 'saints' STILL-LIVING at the time being referenced, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth, Dan7:[25]27, 22 "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven..."). Plz compare Scripture, which I supplied. = )

It is ONLY the 20:4B ppl that will have DIED in the trib yrs, being spoken of in that second section of this verse. (They will be "resurrected [to stand again (on the earth)]" and will reign with Him also... )
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Sure, the resurrection of people was prophesied. But none of this supports a pre=trib rapture and trip back to heaven.
"RESURRECTION" does NOT equal "RAPTURE"
Never said it was. But here's the fact; when Jesus brings all the dead who "belong to Him" to earth and resurrects them before He raptures the living believers, what both the dead and living get are GLORIFIED bodies.

So it's kinda silly arguing about one word vs the other. Both words describe the GLORIFICATION of physical bodies. 1 Cor 15 makes that clear.

We were covering "RESURRECTION [to stand again (on the earth)]".[;QUOTE]
No, I am not. When I speak of resurrection, I specifically mean when bodies are GLORIFIED. That's all I mean.
 

FreeGrace2

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At some point in my post, I was speaking of those SPECIFICALLY in 20:4A (parallel Dan7:22--regarding those 'saints' STILL-LIVING at the time being referenced, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth, Dan7:[25]27, 22 "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven..."). Plz compare Scripture, which I supplied. = )
I'm sorry, but this is nearly impossible to follow. I color coded words in Rev 20:4 that refutes your claim that the verse is about people still alive on earth in their physical bodies.

It is ONLY the 20:4B ppl that will have DIED in the trib yrs, being spoken of in that second section of this verse. (They will be "resurrected [to stand again (on the earth)]" and will reign with Him also... )
Again, hard to follow. Why do you see 2 groups in v.4? And I see no connection to Dan 7:22, as you seem to do.
 

Jimbone

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It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.


Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
I'm sorry, if this sounds blunt, and I'm not going to go verse by verse to lay down the context of each to show they're not at all talking about the rapture as is define on this site and by most of those that believe in it. Each of these verses is speaking of something else entirely. What you do here with scripture is the same as a ransom letter made from magazine cutouts. Again I am sorry for, and know this sounds rude and harsh, but please try to just understand what I mean. I'm not trying to insult, but when I look at this I have to say what I see. I believe anyone can take scripture and do what you are doing here. Craft an idea and then go through and pull out and sentences you can make fit it. This is exactly what "pulling things out of context" means.

I'd love to go through each and share exactly what we think the context is for each, but if not I do hope you have a great day and no hard feelings.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Never said it was. But here's the fact; when Jesus brings all the dead who "belong to Him" to earth and resurrects them before He raptures the living believers, what both the dead and living get are GLORIFIED bodies.
Again, He does not come "to the earth" to do that.

We will be "SNATCHED UP / AWAY" ... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" at the time being referenced by you, here, in the bold part ^

... but the part saying "when Jesus BRINGS ALL THE DEAD who belong to Him" (which I underlined and put in "purple"), THAT part of the verse you're speaking of is talking about His "RETURN" to the earth (NOT the "RAPTURE" point in time... but AFTER they have done the "shall RISE first" and the "caught UP TOGETHER" event... etc...

...and then LATER when Jesus does His "the APPEARANCE/MANIFESTATION OF His coming/presence/parousia" THIS is when He does the "shall bring WITH [G4862--UNIONed-with/IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" thing (re: the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)... FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself, which will have ALREADY taken place!--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal! [G347]<--on earth, where those saints who will have come to faith in/during/within the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), will be LOCATED [whether as "STILL-LIVING [Dan12:13, Dan7:22]," OR as "RESURRECTED [Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, Jn11:24, Rev20:4b, etc 'to stand again [on the earth]"])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming."
I disagree, in that, I believe the Subject of verse 1 is SOLELY about "our Rapture" and its timing (that is, when we are "SNATCHED UP" to "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR])
No to you. The verse speaks of "the coming of our Lord". That the SECOND Coming. There are 2 of them. First Advent when He came to earth, born of a virgin and went to the cross. Second Advent is when He returns (the second time) as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to reign for 1,000 years, before the GWT judgment.
Okay... so we're up to POINT #3... whoo! :D


Hmmm... I covered that in past posts (somewhere)... that even in what we call Jesus' FIRST advent, there was:

--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,

--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.

...which one of these two passages speak of it (coming/advent)?

Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?

--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];

--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])



--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."


--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."


____________

As for your other idea (about "there are 2 of them" and "SECOND"), I'm going to guess you've gotten this idea from Hebrews 9:28, right?

Well, I made a post about that, some time back:


[quoting old post]

[Response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus only comes at His Second Coming to the earth, not a separate time for our Rapture ('IN THE AIR')--But Heb9:28 refers to neither of these, as I see it, when we consider the following...]

From Hebrews 9:28 (where the "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)... out of the 684 occurrences of "G3708," TEN times that "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus, and ALL TEN of them refer events taking place AFTER His death/resurrection (and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere).

Of those 10x, 5x it refers to the 40-day interval between His resurrection and His later "VISIBLE" ascension [specifically, "he was taken up"] in Acts 1 [note: however, His earlier "[active] I ascend" having taken place ON Firstfruit His Resurrection Day, after speaking with Mary Magdalene, in John 20:17, where He had said to her, "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and SAY UNTO THEM [i.e verbal testimony], I ascend [active] unto My Father and your Father; and to My God, and your God."

Whereas later that SAME EVENING (per Lk24:33,36,39 and context), He tells the disciples who were gathered together, in v.39 (something now the opposite from what He'd earlier-in-the-day said to MM), now "HANDLE ME, and see...". And preceding this late evening setting, an earlier scene (approaching "toward evening" per v.29) reports Him to have "VANISHED out from their sight" (<--speaking of the "2 walkers on the road to Emmaus" when they had "sat at meat" together, per vv.29-31);

...so (without listing them) these 5x where "G3708 passive" is used of Him, all 5 of these are shown to be speaking of His "post-resurrection appearances" ON THE EARTH (over the course of some "40 days") in the presence of carefully chosen witnesses, in His resurrected Body:

--(and even the word "appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM," per Mark 16:9, is not one of these "G3708" mentions [like Heb9:28 is speaking of in particular], so this is not among the 5 occurrences "G3708 passive" is speaking of, there);

--the main thing I want to point out here, is that, within those "40 days" [during which, the "5 mentions of G3708 passive" took place, re: Jesus], John 21:14 informs us "This is now the THIRD TIME that Jesus showed Himself to His disciples, after that He was risen from the dead." So MULTIPLE times, over the course of a "40-day period" was this the case.


--the OTHER 5 occurrences (of "G3708 passive" when speaking of Jesus) ALL took place AFTER HIS "VISIBLE" ascension took place in Acts 1;

--so ALL 5 of *THESE* mentions took place [whilst in His position] "FROM HEAVEN" (AFTER His visible ascension, thus some time AFTER the 40-day period; ALL of *THESE* 5 mentions are speaking of when He appeared unto Paul from His position "FROM HEAVEN" after having visibly ascended before His disciples in Acts 1);

--so my main overall point being:

...NOT ONE of those "10 occurrences of 'G3708 passive' [re: Jesus]" speaks of ANYTHING regarding the events BEFORE His death on the Cross, during the time of His earthly ministry (of 3.5 yrs or however long that was). NONE of those TEN "mentions" speak OF THAT.

...ALL TEN speak of what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (and FIVE of them speak of events occurring FOLLOWING His visible ascension in Acts 1, AFTER those "40 days" and "FROM HEAVEN"); AND this "G3708 passive" (re: Jesus) was NOT LIMITED to only "ONE TIME" ONLY, but MULTIPLE times, thus I believe the argument being put forth falls flat, as I see it.

Hebrews 9:28 [and note, this is the epistle to the Hebrews] -

"so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of [the] many,

will appear [G3708 passive] for a second time apart from sin[/I],...

[the FIRST time "He appeared apart from sin" was spoken of in those 10 mentions, ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection; at least one version puts it like, "a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear [G3708 passive]" (note: the FIRST time "apart from a sin-offering" that He "appeared [G3708 passive (like Heb9:28 is speaking of)]" was ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection, and five of those 10 "mentions" was FOLLOWING His ascension in Acts 1, so "FROM HEAVEN" (these 5 mentions in particular are found in Paul's epistles, speaking of his/Paul's own experience)]

...to those awaiting Him for salvation."


[again, 5x (mentions) was referring to His post-resurrection tangible appearances to His disciples/carefully-chosen-witnesses (and not speaking of merely a "ONE TIME" happening);...
...5x (mentions) was referring to His post-ascension (Acts1 later ascension), the "FROM HEAVEN" one (so a separate one still, from the others)]


That particular "argument" remains wholly unconvincing to me, for these reasons.

[end quoting old post]

__________

[try harder??]
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Never said it was. But here's the fact; when Jesus brings all the dead who "belong to Him" to earth and resurrects them before He raptures the living believers, what both the dead and living get are GLORIFIED bodies.
Again, He does not come "to the earth" to do that.
That is your opinion. What verse says He makes a U-turn in the clouds and takes the glorified saints back to heaven? None.

btw, "coming in the clouds" from heaven is essentially "coming to earth". In any case, it's only a minor point. What is the major point is that there are NO verses that say that Jesus takes glorified believers back to heaven.

We will be "SNATCHED UP / AWAY" ... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" at the time being referenced by you, here, in the bold part ^
Right. We meet Him as He descends. Remember what the 2 angels told the 11 disciples from Acts 1-
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The red words describe how Jesus left the EARTH for heaven. The words "from you" clearly refer to being ON THE EARTH.
The blue words describe how Jesus WILL RETURN to earth from heaven.

There's no reason to assume/presume that He stops short of ground and stays in the clouds.

... but the part saying "when Jesus BRINGS ALL THE DEAD who belong to Him" (which I underlined and put in "purple"), THAT part of the verse you're speaking of is talking about His "RETURN" to the earth (NOT the "RAPTURE" point in time... but AFTER they have done the "shall RISE first" and the "caught UP TOGETHER" event... etc...
You are making some kind of distinction between 'return to earth' and 'rapture' where there is none.

To keep using the word "rapture" is unfortunate. The better word is "glorification", because that is exactly what all that is about.

When you do that, things become more focused. There is only one event where humans are glorified.

...and then LATER when Jesus does His "the APPEARANCE/MANIFESTATION OF His coming/presence/parousia" THIS is when He does the "shall bring WITH [G4862--UNIONed-with/IDENTIFIED-with] HIM" thing (re: the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)... FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself, which will have ALREADY taken place!--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal! [G347]<--on earth, where those saints who will have come to faith in/during/within the trib yrs (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), will be LOCATED [whether as "STILL-LIVING [Dan12:13, Dan7:22]," OR as "RESURRECTED [Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, Jn11:24, Rev20:4b, etc 'to stand again [on the earth]"])
Again, I see no difference between His 'rapturing' or glorifiying people, and His second advent.

You throw a whole lot of verses in your explanation, but you haven't connected the dots. Just a lot of claims (opinions).
 

Hevosmies

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Pretrib rapture has Jesus in heaven until the same thing.

You guys poorly discern most everything.

You do not even realize we are on the same page with the second coming TO SET UP AND RESTORE THE EARTH.

PSSST... we never say he touches earth.

You guys are bizarrely blinded to what we believe.

All these years of debate and postrib rapturists have never taken the time to learn what we believe.
I dare say I do know what you guys believe. My pastor is a pre-tribber! I know you believe He comes in a rapture to take people to heaven instead of "touching down" on earth. That is taught IN ORDER TO explain away the verse(s) that say Jesus must stay in heaven until the restoration AND the verse that says Jesus stays on the Father's right side until His enemies are made a footstool.

That had to be made up in order for the pre-trib package to work. Just as it is the case with the 2 Thessalonians 1&2.

I know all the arguments and doctrines, granted not all pre-tribbers agree. Some like you think the Matthew 25 lamps, oil thing is a "vivid picture of the rapture". Yet some pre-tribbers think its not, as it was a 'mystery only revealed to Paul'.

If you ask me the whole eschatology debate is a wild west of differing opinions and doctrines all claiming to be biblical while ignoring a bunch of verses. I've spoken about this in the past. Here is what I had to say about these different eschatology views, my HONEST OPINION I have noticed as I watched and listened to the debates:


ALL eschatological positions got some MAJOR problems with them, by MAJOR i mean they have to CHANGE what verses mean, or water down the verses to not mean what they plainly say.

I can demonstrate this quickly for ALL common views:

Dispensational premillennialism - You have to imagine that 1 Thess 4:15 is a DIFFERENT COMING than the second coming that everyone was waiting for, EVEN THOUGH its clear when compared to with rest of Scripture that there is only one time Jesus is coming again (Acts 1:11, Acts 3:21) Its also clear that even in the midst of the vials in Revelation 16:15 Jesus is still saying "I am COMING" so He still has not COME! Paul says Christians get rest at the same time as Jesus returns in flaming fire, so clearly not a rapture separate coming: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. To their credit: This view is the best of both worlds in the sense that it accounts for the verses that seem to say Jesus could come at any moment, while also taking seriously the many signs preceding the Lord's return concluding yeah these cant be the same event, they are usually taking scripture very seriously and literally (except for interpreting revelation 4:1 :D ) and a big bonus: the MOST righteous living, Spirit filled, on fire for God Christians I know are in this camp. My church also teaches this. All my favorite preachers teach this.

Historical premillennialism - You have the problem who populates the millennium? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 proves to be a stumbling stone here too, because all the saved are given rest, glorified bodies, resurrected, and the lost are destroyed, leaving no one left in the flesh the populate the millennium. How do they get around it? They go to Zechariah 14, say some people are left, or try to otherwise twist 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 to say only SOME lost are destroyed, those who WILLINGLY dont know Him and so on. The other problem is, the Rapture seems largely meaningless because Jesus is coming to this very same earth, so why do a U-turn to begin with. To their credit: I believe this view is the one you end up with when just reading the entire book of Revelation and/or bible from cover to cover, which is why it was the most popular view in the early early early church!

Amillennialism - You have to completely re-imagine Revelation 20 and jump all over the Bible to make the claim that satan is bound already. First resurrection is spiritual, yet rest of the dead also live after the millennium, and thats a physical resurrection. Well that means all the saved are part of it too! Making the first spiritual resurrection, being born again spiritually kind of POINTLESS. They also have to ignore Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are clearly in chronological order, beast and false prophet taken out first, satan then bound, released and then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet ARE (already ARE, cause they was thrown in there in Revelation 19)! To their credit: This view fits the New Testament the best OUTSIDE OF the book of Revelation. Many reformers believed this and its the most SIMPLE view to explain to everyone. (OCCAMS RAZOR)
 

FreeGrace2

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I disagree, in that, I believe the Subject of verse 1 is SOLELY about "our Rapture" and its timing (that is, when we are "SNATCHED UP" to "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR])
You are free to disagree, but that doesn't change what is obvious. Paul specifically mentioned "the coming of our Lord". What else can that be except the SECOND coming of our Lord? I know you will say "coming to rapture living believers. But we already have the concept of Christ's TWO "comings" or Advents. For Paul to use "coming" in the sense of some secret coming only to the clouds and then making a U-turn back to heaven isn't supported in Scripture.

Okay... so we're up to POINT #3... whoo! :D

Hmmm... I covered that in past posts (somewhere)... that even in what we call Jesus' FIRST advent, there was:

--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it (coming/advent)?

Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
Why can't one refer to His FIRST advent and the other one His SECOND advent?

--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
Obviously His FIRST Advent.

--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
Uh, you lost me at "the Luke thing". Please be more specific, and copy/paste verses if need be.

As for your other idea (about "there are 2 of them" and "SECOND"), I'm going to guess you've gotten this idea from Hebrews 9:28, right?
Well, I made a post about that, some time back:
Uh, no. I got that from the obvious fact that Jesus came to earth and born to a virgin to pay the sin debt of humanity, and will return to earth as KING of kings, to rule the earth. So there are TWO advents. I don't need any verse to prove that point.

[quoting old post]

[Response to the idea that Heb9:28 refers to how Jesus only comes at His Second Coming to the earth, not a separate time for our Rapture ('IN THE AIR')--But Heb9:28 refers to neither of these, as I see it, when we consider the following...]

From Hebrews 9:28 (where the "passive" form of G3708 ['appear'] is used)... out of the 684 occurrences of "G3708," TEN times that "[G3708] appear [PASSIVE]" is used regarding Jesus, and ALL TEN of them refer events taking place AFTER His death/resurrection (and it was only to carefully chosen witnesses, not to every person everywhere).

Of those 10x, 5x it refers to the 40-day interval between His resurrection and His later "VISIBLE" ascension [specifically, "he was taken up"] in Acts 1 [note: however, His earlier "[active] I ascend" having taken place ON Firstfruit His Resurrection Day, after speaking with Mary Magdalene, in John 20:17, where He had said to her, "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and SAY UNTO THEM [i.e verbal testimony], I ascend [active] unto My Father and your Father; and to My God, and your God."

Whereas later that SAME EVENING (per Lk24:33,36,39 and context), He tells the disciples who were gathered together, in v.39 (something now the opposite from what He'd earlier-in-the-day said to MM), now "HANDLE ME, and see...". And preceding this late evening setting, an earlier scene (approaching "toward evening" per v.29) reports Him to have "VANISHED out from their sight" (<--speaking of the "2 walkers on the road to Emmaus" when they had "sat at meat" together, per vv.29-31);

...so (without listing them) these 5x where "G3708 passive" is used of Him, all 5 of these are shown to be speaking of His "post-resurrection appearances" ON THE EARTH (over the course of some "40 days") in the presence of carefully chosen witnesses, in His resurrected Body:

--(and even the word "appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM," per Mark 16:9, is not one of these "G3708" mentions [like Heb9:28 is speaking of in particular], so this is not among the 5 occurrences "G3708 passive" is speaking of, there);

--the main thing I want to point out here, is that, within those "40 days" [during which, the "5 mentions of G3708 passive" took place, re: Jesus], John 21:14 informs us "This is now the THIRD TIME that Jesus showed Himself to His disciples, after that He was risen from the dead." So MULTIPLE times, over the course of a "40-day period" was this the case.

--the OTHER 5 occurrences (of "G3708 passive" when speaking of Jesus) ALL took place AFTER HIS "VISIBLE" ascension took place in Acts 1;

--so ALL 5 of *THESE* mentions took place [whilst in His position] "FROM HEAVEN" (AFTER His visible ascension, thus some time AFTER the 40-day period; ALL of *THESE* 5 mentions are speaking of when He appeared unto Paul from His position "FROM HEAVEN" after having visibly ascended before His disciples in Acts 1);

--so my main overall point being:

...NOT ONE of those "10 occurrences of 'G3708 passive' [re: Jesus]" speaks of ANYTHING regarding the events BEFORE His death on the Cross, during the time of His earthly ministry (of 3.5 yrs or however long that was). NONE of those TEN "mentions" speak OF THAT.

...ALL TEN speak of what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (and FIVE of them speak of events occurring FOLLOWING His visible ascension in Acts 1, AFTER those "40 days" and "FROM HEAVEN"); AND this "G3708 passive" (re: Jesus) was NOT LIMITED to only "ONE TIME" ONLY, but MULTIPLE times, thus I believe the argument being put forth falls flat, as I see it.

Hebrews 9:28 [and note, this is the epistle to the Hebrews] -

"so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of [the] many,

will appear [G3708 passive] for a second time apart from sin[/I],...

[the FIRST time "He appeared apart from sin" was spoken of in those 10 mentions, ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection; at least one version puts it like, "a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear [G3708 passive]" (note: the FIRST time "apart from a sin-offering" that He "appeared [G3708 passive (like Heb9:28 is speaking of)]" was ALL FOLLOWING His death/resurrection, and five of those 10 "mentions" was FOLLOWING His ascension in Acts 1, so "FROM HEAVEN" (these 5 mentions in particular are found in Paul's epistles, speaking of his/Paul's own experience)]

...to those awaiting Him for salvation."

[again, 5x (mentions) was referring to His post-resurrection tangible appearances to His disciples/carefully-chosen-witnesses (and not speaking of merely a "ONE TIME" happening);...
...5x (mentions) was referring to His post-ascension (Acts1 later ascension), the "FROM HEAVEN" one (so a separate one still, from the others)]

That particular "argument" remains wholly unconvincing to me, for these reasons.

[end quoting old post]
With respect, it's just rather difficult to follow your long posts. You throw out citations, lots of different words. Kinda makes me feel like I'm reading a word salad. And I don't see any connection with the simple issue of evidence for Jesus returning to heaven after He glorifies "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23).

[try harder??]
Maybe not so hard. If harder, I'd expect longer posts. Which would be harder to follow.

Don't you have anything simple that connects the dots that you are seeing?

My defense for post tribulation glorification has been simple and easy to follow.
 

cv5

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Let me start out with this:

--Jesus said,

"I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE" - John 11:25

--re: "THE RESURRECTION" He says, "...though he were DEAD, yet SHALL he LIVE" (i.e. "resurrection")

--re: "and THE LIFE" He says, "... AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"


... so in view of this, let's talk for a minute about the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there), all of the following ppl referred to this very thing: Job 19:25-27, Daniel 12:13, Martha in John 11:24... they knew well about "resurrection [to stand again (on the earth)]"...

... and Jesus had said, "IN THE RESURRECTION, neither do they marry, nor are given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven." (recall, I said "resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"... so I'm not saying this verse says they'll BE in heaven like angels are, but that they'll be "LIKE ANGELS"... (so Rev20:4b is the LAST of those saints to have died, who will be RESURRECTED [to stand again (ON THE EARTH)] *for* [/in time for] the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... these (and others: OT saints) will be "LIKE ANGELS" / "LIKE the ANGELS" (Jesus had said, "in the resurrection");

--Those in 20:4a are STILL-LIVING mortals [saints only (see Dan7:22)] (who will be the ONLY ones capable of reproducing/bearing children throughout the MK age) who will ENTER the MK age [same as the others do] but since they are STILL-LIVING mortals (like Dan12:13 and many other "BLESSED" passages), Jesus says OF THEM, "[they] SHALL NEVER DIE"... now, how can this be SO??



(Because Jesus SAID SO!, for one reason... ;) And He will be REIGNING, so its all HIS CALL to sustain LIFE in such a way!! ["I AM THE LIFE"... and HE SAID SO!])


...now, this is just the INTRO to what all I hope to eventually cover on this Subject, if time (or even any interest) allows... I hope at least someone is trackin' with me here... lol
I'm tracking and I'm interested my friend. Finest exegesis that I have ever witnessed. Keep it coming!
God bless.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Uh, no. I got that from the obvious fact that Jesus came to earth and born to a virgin to pay the sin debt of humanity, and will return to earth as KING of kings, to rule the earth. So there are TWO advents. I don't need any verse to prove that point.
We agree Jesus "came to earth" and was "born"...

We agree Jesus will "RETURN" to the earth, as King of kings, to rule the earth.

--"our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (by means of the "SNATCH!") is NOT His "RETURN" to the earth.

His "RETURN" to the earth, is: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]... NOT: THEN "the MARRIAGE" (He will be "RETURNING" to the earth, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with]" His "Bride/Wife [singular]")
--and all those "big long posts" I just made about THAT part (His "RETURN" to the earth) are SHOWING that those passages are NOT ABOUT *US* ('the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' to/of whom "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" SOLELY pertains...)

... and why then the "hast redeemed US" (said UP IN HEAVEN) pertains with regard to the overall CHRONOLOGY... they say this BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened (in that "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the TRIB YRS unfolding upon the earth); thus, how I am showing you the distinction...

--"the day of the Lord" being ENTIRELY *EARTHLY-LOCATED* [time-period of MUCH DURATION, starting with SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Mt24:4/Mk13:5 , 1Th5:2-3, its ARRIVAL];

--whereas "the day of Christ / of OUR Lord Jesus Christ / etc"... is when WE [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *only*!!] are UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] HIM"


With respect, it's just rather difficult to follow your long posts.
I do know the feeling... :geek:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Maybe not so hard. If harder, I'd expect longer posts. Which would be harder to follow.

Don't you have anything simple that connects the dots that you are seeing?
Yeah, this: the verses you are pointing out, do not say what you are suggesting they say. = )




[back later tonight, when I get another break... ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Ok, so let's just count all the times the Lord comes to earth:
1. First Advent as a baby.
2. All the preIncarnate times He visited OT figures. Theophanies.
3. Paul on the road to Damascus.
4. the fabricated pre-trib theory.
5. Second Advent, when He comes as King of kings, and sets up His Millennial rule.
Hm. Lots of visits, but ONLY two are numbered. Why is that?
--"unto *you* FIRST" Acts 3:26 (Peter speaking of Jesus' earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/Death)... finishes the verse by saying, "[unto *you* FIRST] God, having RAISED UP [to a position of prominence] His SERVANT Jesus, SENT Him to bless *you*, in turning away every one of *you* from his iniquities"


Okay... I can see how that qualifies as a text concerning His "FIRST" advent/parousia/arrival/presence/coming (though not using that other underlined word in this particular context)... are there others you could point out which say this?

And what about the phrase "SECOND advent"...?


Or, are you just assuming that ALL occurrences of the word "advent/parousia/arrival/presence/coming" are NECESSARILY "located ON THE EARTH" (and not happening "IN THE AIR"--where no one else [i.e. the lost / unsaved] PARTICIPATES!!;) ])??
 

Absolutely

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They do have a film industry & bizarrely, a research centre. o_O
A research centre! They must be desperately trying to find that verse.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

That was mat 25
Mat 24:
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 14 (which is neither the rapture or the 2nd coming)....but blows a hole in postrib Rapture you could sail a ship through
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.