Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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ewq1938

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His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" that He told Mary Magdalene to "SAY UNTO them" took place ON FIRSTFRUIT (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 [1Cor15:20])...
He obviously was not present tense ascending because he was standing on the ground as he spoke to her and remained there until the actual time he ascended which I quoted.
 

FreeGrace2

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No.

And I covered that in my Post #1274 (page 64):

https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4491982

Please see that post. Will save me some typing.

[I need to head out now... BBL... way later tonight...]
Here's the context for v.19

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

v.18 addresses Christ's crucifixion.
v.19 addresses what Christ did AFTER His resurrection (made alive in the Spirit). This does NOT, as you claim from your old post, refer to His preaching to anyone during Noah's generation.

It is very clear that "after being made alive (resurrection) He WENT and MADE proclamation to the spirits".
 

TheDivineWatermark

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How in the world someone could argue against that is simply incomprehensible. Triple redundancy. You can't do better than that.
Well, for starters...

... by their seeing the phrase "the day of the Lord" (v.2) as speaking of His Second Coming (or commencing at that point), rather than acknowledging that Paul said it would be ARRIVING just like Jesus had referred to, when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" but Paul is speaking of the INITIAL MOMENT of its arrival ["PANG"] (aka the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the START of the 7-yr trib, 2Th2:8a/9a [/Dan9:27a(26b)], aka SEAL #1 (Rev6:2), at the START of the 7-yr trib (not at its MIDDLE [2:4], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])...

...and then by their bypassing that verse, in order to SKIP BACK OVER AND PAST v.2, when ascertaining what v.3a's "that day" is speaking of... thus completely missing what it is that Paul is actually conveying here in this context.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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He obviously was not present tense ascending because he was standing on the ground as he spoke to her and remained there until the actual time he ascended which I quoted.
No.

You think He could not tell them Himself later that same evening when He would be seeing them, IF He were referring to THAT (40-day later thing)?

He wasn't referring to that. (And all references to that [Acts 1 VISIBLE ascension event] are in the "passive," that I recall.)


No... He said to her, "[YOU] GO... SAY UNTO THEM, I ASCEND [active]"... And some time after she left to "GO" do that, He did that very thing! ON FIRSTFRUIT! (THAT VERY DAY)







["The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." Ex23:19 and 34:26]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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What? Of course the pre-trib view is that Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them back to heaven.
No.

The PRE-trib view is that MORE ppl come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... (so how could they ALL have been "RAPTURED". No.)

Then... I just made abundant long posts about THOSE who do come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (as well as the OT saints' ) "resurrection" and what Jesus said pertaining to those...



I'm beginning to suspect you're being facetious... [it's ringing in my ears this very minute... :rolleyes: ]




...gotta run...
 

Guojing

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Thank you for making the obvious point here.

Both the FIRST and SECOND Advents were prophesied. The gathering, which you call a rapture, was prophesied. None of the other visits by our Lord to earth were prophesied.

So, since the gathering is a prophecy, and there are no verses that prophesy that Jesus takes glorified saints back up to heaven, where does that leave the pre-trib claim? Without any support from Scriptur
The gathering occurs WHEN Jesus comes back at the SECOND Advent. Want proof? Who wouldn't?

Maatt 24-
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Clearly the verses that follow are in the context of the Tribulation.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

When Jesus returns, it will be a VERY OBVIOUS event, one that everyone will see.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus return is always described with a "trumpet call". 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4. However, in Matt 24, the context is CLEARLY the Tribulation. Not some "secret rapture" that only believers will see and hear. In fact, there are no such verses in the Bible about a secret rapture. Just conjecture and construct.
You don't understand what I am saying? the rapture of the Body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God until it was revealed by the apostle Paul.

So naturally you won't find it in Jesus's words during the 4 Gospels. Jesus being God knows how to hide something from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 3:9)
 

FreeGrace2

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Well, for starters...

... by their seeing the phrase "the day of the Lord" (v.2) as speaking of His Second Coming (or commencing at that point), rather than acknowledging that Paul said it would be ARRIVING just like Jesus had referred to, when He spoke of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" but Paul is speaking of the INITIAL MOMENT of its arrival ["PANG"] (aka the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the START of the 7-yr trib, 2Th2:8a/9a [/Dan9:27a(26b)], aka SEAL #1 (Rev6:2), at the START of the 7-yr trib (not at its MIDDLE [2:4], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])...

...and then by their bypassing that verse, in order to SKIP BACK OVER AND PAST v.2, when ascertaining what v.3a's "that day" is speaking of... thus completely missing what it is that Paul is actually conveying here in this context.
Seems to be a lot of construct.

And 2 Thess 2:1 doesn't say "day of the lord", but "the coming of our Lord". ie, He's coming back, a SECOND time. And "our gathering is included in His "coming back". Real clear.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
What? Of course the pre-trib view is that Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them back to heaven.
Of course it is. The pre-trib view is that the church will be raptured and taken to heaven. How can you say no?

The PRE-trib view is that MORE ppl come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... (so how could they ALL have been "RAPTURED". No.)
You are just dodging the issue. Because you know that there are no verses that indicate that Jesus glorifies believers and then takes them back to heaven.

Then... I just made abundant long posts about THOSE who do come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (as well as the OT saints' ) "resurrection" and what Jesus said pertaining to those...
This isn't any problem for my (the Bible's) view. There is NO pre-trib anything. So those who come to faith and survive the Trib will be among "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord". That's why I believe all believers, dead or alive, will be glorified at the SECOND coming of the Lord.

I'm beginning to suspect you're being facetious... [it's ringing in my ears this very minute... :rolleyes: ]
I can't help your tinnitus, but you have no reason at all to suspect that I'm being facetious.

...gotta run...
Ooh, tinnitus AND the runs. I do sympathize.
 

FreeGrace2

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You don't understand what I am saying?
Rather, it seems you haven't understood me.

the rapture of the Body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God until it was revealed by the apostle Paul.
Did I say otherwise? I quoted from Matt 24, which are Jesus' own words about the "gathering of the elect" at the Second Advent.

So naturally you won't find it in Jesus's words during the 4 Gospels.
Well then, it seems you've already cut Matt 24 out of your Bible. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Jesus being God knows how to hide something from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 3:9)
Eph 3:9 - and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

So, this is your support for the rapture being a mystery??

The mystery that Paul spoke of was in regard to salvation offered to Gentiles. The Jews totally missed what the OT prophets had said.

Regardless, if you believe that Jesus will rapture believers before the Tribulation, glorify them, and then take them back to heaven, what evidence do you have for that from Scripture?

Thanks.
 

Guojing

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Rather, it seems you haven't understood me.


Did I say otherwise? I quoted from Matt 24, which are Jesus' own words about the "gathering of the elect" at the Second Advent.


Well then, it seems you've already cut Matt 24 out of your Bible. Tsk, tsk, tsk.



Thanks.
I am not cutting Matt 24, I am just telling you that you won't find the rapture in the 4 Gospels.
 

ewq1938

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You don't understand what I am saying? the rapture of the Body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God until it was revealed by the apostle Paul.

So naturally you won't find it in Jesus's words during the 4 Gospels. Jesus being God knows how to hide something from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 3:9)
Jesus mentioned the event in the OD. It's called the gathering of the elect. Same gathering Paul spoke about.
 

Guojing

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Jesus mentioned the event in the OD. It's called the gathering of the elect. Same gathering Paul spoke about.
OD means?

Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 10:5-7 tell you Jesus could not be talking about the Body of Christ. The elect there refers to Israel.
 

Guojing

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Olivet Discourse. Christ did speak of the rapture when he spoke of the elect being gathered together.
Jesus was referring to the 2nd coming for Israel there. He cannot be referring to gentiles (Matthew 15:24)
 

ewq1938

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Jesus was referring to the 2nd coming for Israel there. He cannot be referring to gentiles (Matthew 15:24)
He was talking about the one and only second coming. There aren't two second comings. The rapture he spoke of is for all Christians who survived the Great Tribulation. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.
 

Guojing

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He was talking about the one and only second coming. There aren't two second comings. The rapture he spoke of is for all Christians who survived the Great Tribulation. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.
If your last statement was true in OD, then Jesus would be contradicting himself in Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 10:5-7.
 

ewq1938

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You brought up that you think there is a contradiction but did not bother to explain why so it would be up to you to do that, and my response would be to defend why I don't agree.
 

Guojing

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You brought up that you think there is a contradiction but did not bother to explain why so it would be up to you to do that, and my response would be to defend why I don't agree.
Jesus said that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

So, during that time, Jews and gentiles were being differentiated