Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[Grace777x70]

They are actually VERY ACCURATE!

Several of those ideas in that article have been continually pushed right here by your ilk on this Forum.

That's complete nonsense. It is all this man's opinions and I have not seen anyone talk about these 8 signs in this forum - not by "my like" anyway.

I believe the originator of the OP wants to stay on the subject so, let's honor her purpose for the OP and stop bringing in things to derail this thread. Thank you.

You are free to start any other thread you desire.

 

[UnderGrace]

Here's how Charisma News defines the movement:

8 Signs of 'Hypergrace' Churches — Charisma News

CharismaNews – commentary from the above link

God uses the moral law as the standard of righteousness in which to judge us of sin. Thus, the Law doesn’t save us, but it sanctifies us when we yield to the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, because through it we have the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20).

This is what the bible actually says

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For by works of the law no human being[SUP][a][/SUP] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Knowledge of sin and the law does not sanctify, nowhere does Paul teach this. God sanctifies. He does not use the law to judge a believer either.

This article attacks "hyper-grace" yet their words show they do not even understand the function of the law, so, yes I guess they would not be able to understand grace either. Not surprised.

 

[UnderGrace]

They are actually VERY ACCURATE!

Several of those ideas in that article have been continually pushed right here by your ilk on this Forum.

DP do you know much about Charisma News?

The fact that you think they are accurate tells me perhaps you follow their teachings?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

GM, JGIG,

I agree with you.
But I was once where peter is. Fairly recently.
I mean, I didn't go around fighting over it, but it was an intense inward struggle and temptation to rest in Him and to trust Him for sanctification.

I didn't know that the very moment I gave up, I would begin to see the victory I so badly wanted. (Cease all striving and know that I am God.)

And through that all, He never left me. I say, if only someone had told me! But I don't think I would have heard them if they did. In fact, maybe they did tell me and I just couldn't hear it. Or maybe they told me but they did so without love, so I couldn't hear it over the din of their clashing gong.

All I know is I see where peter is because I was there too. So I try to help where I can. I would not have this love for him and this ache in my heart for him if I hadn't been him not so long ago. So I hope for him and deal with one thing at a time. Like I said, months ago, he was insisting that anger, bitterness and resentment is not murder in Gods' eyes. Now he knows it is. His mind has been renewed about that. And that was a first step for me. To see the truth. It took a long time for me to get to the next step, where I had to see and admit that just knowing that truth didn't make me able to stop it. He hasn't seen that yet. Or he has, but is still in the battle to rest completely. He hasn't yet fully experienced His perfect love. And so I do what I wish others would have done for me - be patient and help me and forgive my burden and the misery it may have caused them at times.

I remember the struggle I was in, where one day I would get it and the next, I would be reading and would suddenly be filled with doubt and the thought that I must DO something. Those doubts and that struggle would come even WHILE I was reading my bible. But He didn't abandon me in it and He led me through it. And because he didn't abandon me, I can't abandon Peter just because I DO now understand. I don't care if he thinks I am without Gods' Spirit or deceived. I can bear that. I know God will be faithful to him as He was to me, to not leave him without further understanding.

 

[LaurenTM]

Always good to cite your source .

of course!

my intentions were to come back and add some more info and then cite...during the interval, well, the usual thing occurred and by that time, there was no point

however, it was Charisma news...a magazine I do not take seriously as they flake back and forth and desire readership more than authenticity IMO

in other words, their titles read like the ringmaster advertising at a circus...come see the headless lady and the dog with 6 legs

I don't think they know what charisma means

 

[LaurenTM]

I agree with you.
But I was once where peter is. Fairly recently.
I mean, I didn't go around fighting over it, but it was an intense inward struggle and temptation to rest in Him and to trust Him for sanctification.

with respect stunned by grace:

is there a reason you are turning this thead into a defense of peter jens?

we each have our own jens story and some of us have a history with his, as JGIG aptly states, passive aggressive posts

please refrain from continuing posts about this person

it's a little odd that you continue to do so in my opinion and I would more than appreciate it, if you would stop it

you have the pm option available to you if you wish to contact him and discuss where exactly he might be with regard to what he believes

thank you

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I was replying to JGIG. I will leave though. No problem. I can stay out of the threads you start. It was not my intention to antagonize you.

 

[LaurenTM]

JGIG

Are there those who see Grace as a license to sin? I’m sure there are, just as there are those who remain in a continual cycle of sin, repent, confess, sin, repent, confess do – also seen as a license to sin by many, because, hey, one can do whatever as long as they repent and confess, right? How is that less of a license to sin than Grace is?

What I see as a major difference in the two camps is the transparency that exists in the Grace camp; you may be more aware of sinning in folks who are walking in Grace because they can be honest about what’s going on in their lives. As Rob Rufus likes to say, when you shine a light [Grace] into an attic and see all the dust and dirt there [sin], it’s not Grace that *caused* the sin, or looks past it as though it doesn’t exist, but Grace exposes it – but it exposes it in a redemptive context of love and forgiveness, not in a context of fear of punishment like law does, where if you don’t keep ‘short accounts with God’ and then get straightened out and fly right, there are eternal consequences.

that is what I am thinking also...thanks for posting the quote you had left...it is so appropriate for this thread!

with regards to the highlighted above, similar to what I stated in the op...call sin what it is and not hyper grace

there is grace and there is sin...there is no hyper grace

God's grace is already unmerited; no need to call those who accept it hyper. what is quickly becoming hyper, IMO, is the desperate need some folks seem to have to quickly point out what is wrong from behind a barricade of 'truth' they have fashioned out of scripture they identify with, or that appeals to their personality and what repentance has come to mean...sorrow, gnashing of teeth, begging for forgiveness etc...when it actually means you change your thoughts and align yourself with God's thoughts...renew your mind..not shore it up on prefabricated personal assumptions

I am looking around and asking : 'what is going on with you folks? what do you mean grace is causing sin? why are you falling for this gobble-de-gook? how in any sane world, does grace somehow become sin? picture the deception that sees grace as an allowance for sin...Paul writes about that, so obviously this is not a new concept...just the same ole lie that worked 2000 years ago, and apparently, still works

those who say they believe that grace enables our life in Christ, are being accused of continuing in sin; the reality, is that those making the accusations seem to be deadly afraid of sin and emphasize falling away rather than the power of God to keep us.

I will say with Paul...who has bewitched you that you think you can now continue in the flesh what was started by the Spirit of God? it's mind boggling

And I think that is a big part of why you do what you do – you see your perception of the Grace message to be dangerous because you believe that believers are at risk of going to hell if they embrace Grace and then have unrepented-of, unconfessed sins in their lives, resulting in unforgiveness and ultimately separation from God. Your motive is one of love and protection of the sheep, I believe, and at its core, commendable. I think if we distilled the conflict between your position and the Grace position, it would boil down to the issue of eternal security vs. conditional security. Just my observation and perhaps fodder for further comments.

truthfully, I am not into labeling, but I understand the distinction. it illustrates why I am not into the labels . as you say, if someone believes in a certain way, they must continue to believe in that way, as to stop believing in that way, will reduce their assurance of faith...not realizing that the very thing they are doing, can very well put them outside the gate to begin with

saying that, I suppose we can apply it to anyone, however, we have 66 books that are basically already outside of how we might believe or think God is. while God does not act outside of Who He is, He does not act as we do either and that is something we would do well to remember and stop telling others what He is going to do or how He thinks

 

[LaurenTM]

I was replying to JGIG. I will leave though. No problem. I can stay out of the threads you start. It was not my intention to antagonize you.

honestly, you don't think you added to what I said?

no one told you to leave or stay out of any threads I create

no one, so why take it that way?

and who said I was antagonized?

I'm not sure why you would respond like this and exaggerate so much

 

[LaurenTM]

So many commentors have written to me and told me how much they've learned from the comments after the posts on my site. Two things are accomplished there: Discussion and interaction. Discussion of the points, and the tone of the interaction, which readers really pick up on. I love having lots of comments on my site - they are so helpful.

When I see scrubbing it's usually when the OP is proven wrong by using contextual Scripture and/or the owner of the site (or his/her faithful followers) have become harsh/mean/insulting in their tone, further proving the kind of fruit that their stream of belief is producing. They often recognize it and *poof*. Scrub-a-dub-dub!

-JGIG

yup

I have actually been enjoying your blog by the way

and the comments...that is what makes a blog valid, vital and truthful!

great job by the way!

 

[Sac49]

From my understanding of this "hyper grace" it is nothing new. It seems to be nothing more than what was once labeled "cheap grace". I dont see much of a difference between the two. I see these as nothing more than way of defining "common grace". "Common grace" is a grace which God bestows on every single human being that ever lived. Under the thinking of "common grace" we can still sin yet have eternal life if we "are good enough". Basically it says that all we have to do to "earn" salvation is be a better "good" person than a better "bad" person. We as a creation are "against God". But God puts a "common grace" upon us all and "allows" us to live though we deserve nothing but death. Through "common grace" God lets us experience life. The only other grace that there actually is, is "Gods saving grace" which He bestows upon those who follow Him. Those who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. "Gods saving grace" can be defined as "the grace extended towards those who follow Him and will have eternal life with Him in heaven". Under "common grace" we do not have that privilege. We are all born into "common grace" but few are "born again" unto "Gods saving grace". I guess that is how i would, in a way, describe "Gods saving grace" as compared to any other "type" of grace that pops up. Any other use of grace besides "Gods saving grace" is just an embellishment on "common grace" as a way of earning or working our way to heaven which is impossible. The only way to receive Gods saving grace is thru Jesus Christ. Saying we can still have Gods saving grace and continue living a life of sin is wishfull thinking that leads to death.

 

[Grace777x70]

From my understanding of this "hyper grace" it is nothing new. It seems to be nothing more than what was once labeled "cheap grace". I dont see much of a difference between the two. I see these as nothing more than way of defining "common grace". "Common grace" is a grace which God bestows on every single human being that ever lived. Under the thinking of "common grace" we can still sin yet have eternal life if we "are good enough". Basically it says that all we have to do to "earn" salvation is be a better "good" person than a better "bad" person. We as a creation are "against God". But God puts a "common grace" upon us all and "allows" us to live though we deserve nothing but death. Through "common grace" God lets us experience life. The only other grace that there actually is, is "Gods saving grace" which He bestows upon those who follow Him. Those who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. "Gods saving grace" can be defined as "the grace extended towards those who follow Him and will have eternal life with Him in heaven". Under "common grace" we do not have that privilege. We are all born into "common grace" but few are "born again" unto "Gods saving grace". I guess that is how i would, in a way, describe "Gods saving grace" as compared to any other "type" of grace that pops up. Any other use of grace besides "Gods saving grace" is just an embellishment on "common grace" as a way of earning or working our way to heaven which is impossible. The only way to receive Gods saving grace is thru Jesus Christ. Saying we can still have Gods saving grace and continue living a life of sin is wishfull thinking that leads to death.

Amen..the only way to receive God's grace is through Jesus Christ!

What you have in blue above is not true - no one says it's ok to continue living a life of sin. This is where the "straw-man" exists. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

Grace believer's say the complete opposite of what you said in blue above. We all say that grace teaches how to live godly in this present world and I myself have quoted Titus 2:11-12 at least over 50x times and I have seen many others do the same thing.

There are consequences in this life for living after the flesh.

Murder someone in Texas and they will "kill you back". They have an expressway for the execution of murderers if you are caught by 2 witnesses.

Steal from 7/11 and you will go to jail.

Commit adultery on your spouse and you will see the destruction and hurt it brings to a family.

Let's learn to walk according to the Spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

 

[ladylynn]

No matter how much it's said and explained by those of us who love to talk about grace., the same people who disagree keep misrepresenting what we are saying with what they perceive this 'hyper grace' to be., they refuse to be pacified. This reminds me of when I was 16 and the kind of relationship my mom and I had. My mother had a suspicious nature when it came to me and her constant lack of trust and accusations were so discouraging. Those times I went to the mall with my friends she always thought I was there for 'no good'.

My mom would say "you went to the mall to go smoking with your friends" "But mom.,!! I hate smoking., you and dad smoke at home and in the car and I hate it and have always hated it so much! I don't go to the mall to smoke., I don't smoke" Mom would say "oh yes you do., why else would you go?! I'd say.., "we meet there as friends and talk and walk around and shop and go to the coffee shop and see kids from other schools and meet new people and it's fun! I'm not even THINKING about smoking!!"

But mom would still relentlessly accuse me of having other motives about smoking. It didn't matter what i said or how sincere and honest I was., she just saw me as being dishonest no matter how much to the contrary. She believed I was going to the mall to smoke and be disrespectful and that I was dishonest., It didn't matter what I said or how many time I explained it.

Day in and day out her opinion of me was drilled in so much to the point there was no more reason in arguing with her. It just became a drain on my young mind. Our relationship deteriorated more and more and I just avoided her most of the time.

I'm learning that some people here are much like my mom was., they don't tire of falsely re-interpreting what we tell them the truth is about how we view and love Jesus by leaning on His grace each day., It drains any positive news about grace we try to share. They come from a place of not trusting and so everything we say and post is up for suspicion.

Why else do you talk about grace unless you want to sin and get away with it?

Why else would you go to the mall unless you wanted to smoke and get away with it?

To this day I have never even so much as put a cigarette to my lips., have never even been curious. Always found the habit gross as it leaves smells on the furniture and curtains and on my parents. Even the windows had that disgusting film on them and when you washed them with windex, the paper towel was black. eewwww. And in the car we were in the back seat and our parents smoked and it was like being in a box with smoke. We tried to open the windows and were not allowed. We kids just had to endure the results of our parents smoking. Us kids KNEW the ugliness of cigarettes and had NO desire for them.

Just like we 'grace believers' have seen the effects of sin first hand and have been taught to stay away from it and instead lean on the love of God IN Christ.

Mom enjoyed her smoking and she simply couldn't imagine me not wanting to smoke when I got older too. And since mom was always suspicious of me., my growing up years and even later, she never gave me the benefit of the doubt. That is just how it feels when I read posts like PJens (I have stopped reading his and the others too) Don't you guys ever tire of constantly re inventing what was said and have no trust and put no merit or value on our words. It's a constant accusation after another.

We don't sin that grace may abound! We are empowered NOT to sin because grace abounds. After reading PJens assessment list of "hyper-grace" that was posted on that other Christian site along with the guy who wrote "the BOOK" on his thoughts on hyper grace and his description and suspicion of our belief about the 'dangers' of hyper grace and how it teaches we can sin and get away with it., I certainly don't see the point in disputing with them any longer. It is a waste of precious time and spirit. It sucks out the joy and gets the focus off Jesus and on to people who don't trust the simplicity of Jesus and His love (grace)

Many Christians are focusing on the sin and not the solution. Focusing on mistrusting fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you think you can know a persons heart motives for loving grace and preaching the Gospel. Some days when I come to CC and read some of these thread responses is like a Chinese water torture. The constant drip drip dripping of false misinformation that gets pumped out daily on our heads as we try to 'dodge' and 'weave' the false reports. When in reality it takes a simple faith and belief that God has it all figured out for us. He is the Good Shepherd who looks after the sheep. Bringing my Christian life down to something., that is what it is. I follow the One who loves me. Since His love never ends because He promised to never leave us or forsake us., our salvation is a sure thing from start to finish and always will be because He is the one that holds us.

 

[Grace777x70]

No matter how much it's said and explained by those of us who love to talk about grace., the same people who disagree keep misrepresenting what we are saying with what they perceive this 'hyper grace' to be., they refuse to be pacified. This reminds me of when I was 16 and the kind of relationship my mom and I had. My mother had a suspicious nature when it came to me and her constant lack of trust and accusations were so discouraging. Those times I went to the mall with my friends she always thought I was there for 'no good'.

My mom would say "you went to the mall to go smoking with your friends" "But mom.,!! I hate smoking., you and dad smoke at home and in the car and I hate it and have always hated it so much! I don't go to the mall to smoke., I don't smoke" Mom would say "oh yes you do., why else would you go?! I'd say.., "we meet there as friends and talk and walk around and shop and go to the coffee shop and see kids from other schools and meet new people and it's fun! I'm not even THINKING about smoking!!"

But mom would still relentlessly accuse me of having other motives about smoking. It didn't matter what i said or how sincere and honest I was., she just saw me as being dishonest no matter how much to the contrary. She believed I was going to the mall to smoke and be disrespectful and that I was dishonest., It didn't matter what I said or how many time I explained it.

Day in and day out her opinion of me was drilled in so much to the point there was no more reason in arguing with her. It just became a drain on my young mind. Our relationship deteriorated more and more and I just avoided her most of the time.

I'm learning that some people here are much like my mom was., they don't tire of falsely re-interpreting what we tell them the truth is about how we view and love Jesus by leaning on His grace each day., It drains any positive news about grace we try to share. They come from a place of not trusting and so everything we say and post is up for suspicion.

Why else do you talk about grace unless you want to sin and get away with it?

Why else would you go to the mall unless you wanted to smoke and get away with it?

To this day I have never even so much as put a cigarette to my lips., have never even been curious. Always found the habit gross as it leaves smells on the furniture and curtains and on my parents. Even the windows had that disgusting film on them and when you washed them with windex, the paper towel was black. eewwww. And in the car we were in the back seat and our parents smoked and it was like being in a box with smoke. We tried to open the windows and were not allowed. We kids just had to endure the results of our parents smoking. Us kids KNEW the ugliness of cigarettes and had NO desire for them.

Just like we 'grace believers' have seen the effects of sin first hand and have been taught to stay away from it and instead lean on the love of God IN Christ.

Mom enjoyed her smoking and she simply couldn't imagine me not wanting to smoke when I got older too. And since mom was always suspicious of me., my growing up years and even later, she never gave me the benefit of the doubt. That is just how it feels when I read posts like PJens (I have stopped reading his and the others too) Don't you guys ever tire of constantly re inventing what was said and have no trust and put no merit or value on our words. It's a constant accusation after another.

We don't sin that grace may abound! We are empowered NOT to sin because grace abounds. After reading PJens assessment list of "hyper-grace" that was posted on that other Christian site along with the guy who wrote "the BOOK" on his thoughts on hyper grace and his description and suspicion of our belief about the 'dangers' of hyper grace and how it teaches we can sin and get away with it., I certainly don't see the point in disputing with them any longer. It is a waste of precious time and spirit. It sucks out the joy and gets the focus off Jesus and on to people who don't trust the simplicity of Jesus and His love (grace)

Many Christians are focusing on the sin and not the solution. Focusing on mistrusting fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you think you can know a persons heart motives for loving grace and preaching the Gospel. Some days when I come to CC and read some of these thread responses is like a Chinese water torture. The constant drip drip dripping of false misinformation that gets pumped out daily on our heads as we try to 'dodge' and 'weave' the false reports. When in reality it takes a simple faith and belief that God has it all figured out for us. He is the Good Shepherd who looks after the sheep. Bringing my Christian life down to something., that is what it is. I follow the One who loves me. Since His love never ends because He promised to never leave us or forsake us., our salvation is a sure thing from start to finish and always will be because He is the one that holds us.

Well said ladylynn and spot on too!

Give this woman a cigar! ( just kidding' )....

 

[Willie-T]

No matter how much it's said and explained by those of us who love to talk about grace., the same people who disagree keep misrepresenting what we are saying with what they perceive this 'hyper grace' to be., they refuse to be pacified. This reminds me of when I was 16 and the kind of relationship my mom and I had. My mother had a suspicious nature when it came to me and her constant lack of trust and accusations were so discouraging. Those times I went to the mall with my friends she always thought I was there for 'no good'.

My mom would say "you went to the mall to go smoking with your friends" "But mom.,!! I hate smoking., you and dad smoke at home and in the car and I hate it and have always hated it so much! I don't go to the mall to smoke., I don't smoke" Mom would say "oh yes you do., why else would you go?! I'd say.., "we meet there as friends and talk and walk around and shop and go to the coffee shop and see kids from other schools and meet new people and it's fun! I'm not even THINKING about smoking!!"

But mom would still relentlessly accuse me of having other motives about smoking. It didn't matter what i said or how sincere and honest I was., she just saw me as being dishonest no matter how much to the contrary. She believed I was going to the mall to smoke and be disrespectful and that I was dishonest., It didn't matter what I said or how many time I explained it.

Day in and day out her opinion of me was drilled in so much to the point there was no more reason in arguing with her. It just became a drain on my young mind. Our relationship deteriorated more and more and I just avoided her most of the time.

I'm learning that some people here are much like my mom was., they don't tire of falsely re-interpreting what we tell them the truth is about how we view and love Jesus by leaning on His grace each day., It drains any positive news about grace we try to share. They come from a place of not trusting and so everything we say and post is up for suspicion.
Why else do you talk about grace unless you want to sin and get away with it?

Why else would you go to the mall unless you wanted to smoke and get away with it?

To this day I have never even so much as put a cigarette to my lips., have never even been curious. Always found the habit gross as it leaves smells on the furniture and curtains and on my parents. Even the windows had that disgusting film on them and when you washed them with windex, the paper towel was black. eewwww. And in the car we were in the back seat and our parents smoked and it was like being in a box with smoke. We tried to open the windows and were not allowed. We kids just had to endure the results of our parents smoking. Us kids KNEW the ugliness of cigarettes and had NO desire for them.

Just like we 'grace believers' have seen the effects of sin first hand and have been taught to stay away from it and instead lean on the love of God IN Christ.

Mom enjoyed her smoking and she simply couldn't imagine me not wanting to smoke when I got older too. And since mom was always suspicious of me., my growing up years and even later, she never gave me the benefit of the doubt. That is just how it feels when I read posts like PJens (I have stopped reading his and the others too) Don't you guys ever tire of constantly re inventing what was said and have no trust and put no merit or value on our words. It's a constant accusation after another.

We don't sin that grace may abound! We are empowered NOT to sin because grace abounds. After reading PJens assessment list of "hyper-grace" that was posted on that other Christian site along with the guy who wrote "the BOOK" on his thoughts on hyper grace and his description and suspicion of our belief about the 'dangers' of hyper grace and how it teaches we can sin and get away with it., I certainly don't see the point in disputing with them any longer. It is a waste of precious time and spirit. It sucks out the joy and gets the focus off Jesus and on to people who don't trust the simplicity of Jesus and His love (grace)

Many Christians are focusing on the sin and not the solution. Focusing on mistrusting fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you think you can know a persons heart motives for loving grace and preaching the Gospel. Some days when I come to CC and read some of these thread responses is like a Chinese water torture. The constant drip drip dripping of false misinformation that gets pumped out daily on our heads as we try to 'dodge' and 'weave' the false reports. When in reality it takes a simple faith and belief that God has it all figured out for us. He is the Good Shepherd who looks after the sheep. Bringing my Christian life down to something., that is what it is. I follow the One who loves me. Since His love never ends because He promised to never leave us or forsake us., our salvation is a sure thing from start to finish and always will be because He is the one that holds us.

As I have said a few times, all I can make of these constant accusations by some people is that they truly must desire to do all those things, themselves, and are somehow jealous of people they imagine are getting away with what they crave to do.

 

[ladylynn]

Well said ladylynn and spot on too!

Give this woman a cigar! ( just kidding' )....

HA!!! HA! HA! HEE! HA! HO! HAHA!!

 

[PeterJens]

Peter - want to weigh in here?

The problem with faith is we say words for different reasons.

I would define individuals from an emotional perspective rather than a intellectual of belief view.
Where I sit is Jesus blows us away, His love is astounding.

The essence is communion with God, knowing Him changes everything. When you see things
personally and our failure, there is no sense of self righteousness, just following and service.

Now there is no way we can be "righteous" without a serious heart change.
The problem with emotional language is many on all fronts fake the reality or experience it.

So when I come to a site like cc, I just share as my heart leads. If I get attacked, etc.
I just respond.

There is not real resolution to emotional and spiritual healing. You either listen to Christ or
it is just an excuse for some other agenda. But maybe you guys have not got on board the
Kingdom.

Now if someone says to me, I am not saved because of some faith position or because I show
empathy to an individual and not to their rebuke, I have a double take.

No one can actually summarise truth or depth of a walk like this. But time and again people from
this flaky group do this, to everyone, yet at a simple basic level they are wrong. When questioned
it is always defence and denial of any real background or positions they hold.

And yes you can send yourself into a world where there is no way out. I have met enough people
who do not understand Jesus's comment,

Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 18:3

It is this simple and this pure. All the layers or complexity are from the evil one.
None of us can change goats into sheep or sheep into goats.

We are called just to bless, correct sin and encourage others to Christ.
So all this antagonism about being righteous and pure is just double talk.
Part of learning being "good" alone without Christ is part of the spiritual reality.
Only in knowing love and it being freed within your soul can Christ truly live in you.

But hey, I am with mature brothers and sisters in Christ so you all know this already?
Or are things more complex and confused than I am aware.

 

[PeterJens]

No matter how much it's said and explained by those of us who love to talk about grace.

I love grace. I love people, and I want people to know Christ.

But hyper grace believers say I am trampling on Christ, preaching bondage and condemnation, and am
a legalist and probably not saved.

Now I never called this war or condemned them. I have tried to understand the doctrinal and emotional
backgrounds of the people involved, and sought to understand the language.

It is in essence a different faith, with a different salvation and spiritual experience.

Now I have dear friends who are part of this movement, in one form or another.

What this is like, is all our perspectives in Christ are tinted by our emotional walks.
If you get blessing within your view of faith and God, then amen.

But to say I know nothing, the I do not follow Christ or know His words, that my spiritual
walk is with a devil and I am evil and deeply deceived, is a dangerous place to go.

This is all I can leave you with, because you want this way of faith, but I warn you, to
condemn people who are listening to Christ is a place I would not recommend to go.

If you put your hands in the hand of God but are actually in rebellion against Him and curse
His work, then that very curse will fall on your own heads.

 

[Sac49]

Amen..the only way to receive God's grace is through Jesus Christ!

What you have in blue above is not true - no one says it's ok to continue living a life of sin. This is where the "straw-man" exists. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

Grace believer's say the complete opposite of what you said in blue above. We all say that grace teaches how to live godly in this present world and I myself have quoted Titus 2:11-12 at least over 50x times and I have seen many others do the same thing.

There are consequences in this life for living after the flesh.

Murder someone in Texas and they will "kill you back". They have an expressway for the execution of murderers if you are caught by 2 witnesses.

Steal from 7/11 and you will go to jail.

Commit adultery on your spouse and you will see the destruction and hurt it brings to a family.

Let's learn to walk according to the Spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

What? Yes there are people who believe that you can have Gods saving grace yet continue to sin. I didnt say anyone here believes it but there are people who do believe that. If you are saying that i am accusing someone here to have said that or believe that then you are mistaken as i dont say that. Its just a statement that i made having observed some people believing it to be true.

 

[PeterJens]

And all these "signs" are all nonsense

I have got to observe, the response time and again is not a serious admission there is an issue
here with morality and what righteousness and purity is in the body of Christ, but just a disparaging
dismissal of observation and opinion.

It truly saddens me when sincere people are not convicted about plain and simple sin and the failure
to confront it among believers.

This benefits only the enemy and shows how far away from the Kingdom these teachers are.
When I was a kid I literally wanted to the world to live in peace and love.

When you realise how sin perverts this truth, and pollutes all we touch, you will begin to see
there is no place for compromise with sin, in any form.

But if in reality you are not pure, you are not cleansed, you do not see God or know His
righteousness, then as a wolf you will say do not worry, you are forgiven it does not matter.

So those who agree with this compromise already have declared their allegiance.
Ananias and Saphira died because in the company of God and His people their compromise
was just one small lie away.