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slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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Well, I am just getting in from Church, I hope that doesn't disappoint anyone.

I was looking at some statistics and I see that less than 20% of Americans regularly attend Church; half of what pollsters report. In a study surveying the growth of Protestants, Marler and Headway discovered that while the majority of people they interviewed don't belong to a local Church, they still identify with their Church roots. "Never mind the fact that they attend Church less than 12 times a year," according to their research. They estimate that 78 million Protestants are in that place. Ask most Pastor's (they report), what "percentage of inactive members they have" -- they will say, "Anything from 40%-60%.

Even with a broader definition of Church attendance, classifying a regular attendee as someone who shows up at least three out of every eight Sundays, only 23%-25% of Americans would fit this category. Olson notes, that an additional million Church attendees would increase the percentage from 17.7% to only 18%. Thus, you'd have to find 80 million more people that Churches forgot to count on their ledgers to get to the mainstream pollsters 40% conclusions.

Clearly a disconnect between what Americans say and what they actually do has created a sense of a resilient Church culture when, in fact, it may not exist. With that said, it is obvious to me Jesus wants us to attend a corporate gathering in way of suggesting to bring our tithe into the store house. We know in Luke 14:6 regular Church attendance was what Jesus did, are we not to follow His example? We know thru Hebrews that people have left the practice of gathering together, and Jesus admonished them to instead - gather, for the sake of fellowship and encouragement, all the more, as we see the day approaching of His return, thus applying to today as well as in His day.We know God wants us to honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy, we know by going to Church it is a positive testimony to others as well. We know that its practice is encouraging us towards love and good deeds, and that by its commission the gifts are used in a single-mindedness to serve His purposes.

My Spiritual discernment of the Bible tells me to go to Church, and to serve God in a life2life one-on-one experience with people in discipleship. Both are His will. So far, I have never had God suggest to me that I am wrong, thru the holy Spirit or His Word.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
And some of them visited us in the hospital when my wife was recovering from surgery.
The church helped our family tremendously because we needed help because I had to work and my wife had a broken leg for six weeks
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We know a poor family that had a broken house heater. We had two emergency and portable heaters that we lent them because they gave us so much and also because they were in need.

If you saw the bigger picture, the church is a hospital and you are not giving them mercy because you say they fall short according to you and the way we judge can be given back to us by God.

James 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.
If I'm able to move mountains, if I give everything I have to the poor, if I raise the dead back to life, even if I sacrifice my body, it means absolutely nothing if I don't have the love of Christ.

What is the love of Christ? Love doesn't boast, isn't proud, isn't rude, it doesn't seek its own credit, doesn't rejoice when someone hurts, love doesn't get angry easily, love always protects another, trust for another, believes all God's promises are true for others. Love doesn't fail in revealing the love of Christ Jesus to another.

If my credibility is in my own works, no matter how lovely they look on the outside, and I think I'm a better Christian than another person by my own abilities and accomplishments, I'm a braggart, I'm prideful and I'm lying to myself.

Some assemble in a church building, some assemble in houses, some assemble in a park, over the phone, on the internet, in writings (as in Paul's letters), etc. Where two or more are gathered in His name, Jesus Christ is there, too. We walk by faith, not by sight.

It's a spiritual assembling, not a flesh one. Otherwise, how are we one with Christ? Is Christ right now visibly present with you? Do you see Him? Are you hugging Him physically? If not, how are you united with Him? It is by the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST that we are unified as believers.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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There is no need to discuss doctrines with you now, His or otherwise, because you have not obeyed a form of doctrine with your heart, the gospel of your salvation, God is not dealing with nations today in this dispensation, "saved by grace", the church the body of Christ does not earn, maintain or accept the gift of righteousness with an act of the flesh.
Ok.... I have always thought I was reasonably intelligent, but your statement makes NO sense to me....

I have not obeyed a form of doctrine with my heart...yada yada...

Can you just put that in normal words? I have NO clue what you meant by that. I can't answer it if you speak "in tongues"...
 
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Complete_In_Him

Guest
hornetguy, what more is there to say, your assurance of salvation is in something you have done toward God(accept the gift of righteousness by water baptism), the bible calls this a shew of wisdom in will worship.

God only requires one thing of us, believe His testimony, and for our salvation, trust in the faith of Christ. It's a heart response to a form of doctrine 'with power', that doctrine being according to "the gospel of your salvation"

It's a hard thing to question what you may not even recognize you're doing, but, you cannot be trusting in the cross work & faith of Christ for your complete salvation, while you add an act of your flesh to the equation.

Christ + nothing = Doctrine of God

Christ + something = Doctrines of men
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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My wife is getting to know you guys pretty well. She told me when I typed that, "You do know one of those reactionary people who has no idea what 'baptize' means in Greek is going to come right back with some foolish statement about the word 'water' not being mentioned, don't you?"

I defended the forum, saying no one here was that _______ . I was wrong.
GEE THANKS! LOL
 
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Complete_In_Him

Guest
Haha, it happens to the best of us. I know what you meant, but that particular verse is about water. I just cringe when someone starts to go into the word meaning of baptize and everything ends up going to "pickles"
 
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Complete_In_Him

Guest
Christ + nothing = Doctrine of God

Christ + something = Doctrines of men
I'd like to tighten that up with "in this dispensation", in the ministry of reconciliation. Because in "time past" and in the "time to come", that scenario is not true.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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So why are you trying to create two salvations?

If you accept the free gift of salvation from God, the way He said to do it (see scriptures above) then you are saved. I don't see that there is any other kind of salvation needed.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism...

Trying to overcomplicate things is foolishness.

And, even though I don't need to justify myself to you, yes, I believe that our salvation was worked out by Jesus, when He became the once and only sacrifice for all those who will accept it.

I don't believe that I can "do" any works that will help ensure my salvation. His sacrifice was enough.

It's the ACCEPTANCE of that salvation is where you seem to be missing what scripture so plainly teaches.

Read about the guy that was told to go dip in the Jordan river.... he thought that was stupid, because there were far better places to go to be healed.
Jesus doesn't want our opinions on how the salvation process should be done, He simply told us what to do. It's up to us to either accept what He said, or to reject it because it doesn't fit with OUR idea of how we should be saved.

I agree we should set all of OUR doctrines down at the foot of the cross.... I just won't set down HIS doctrines.
HG what you are dealing with is a person whose mind is saturated in the gnostic spirit of the "grace" cult. She has some very pronounced manifestations of this spirit. For example, her condescending tone that talks down to you as if she is superior. Another example is her belief that salvation is not a sanctification process achieved through GOD's grace, but that people are saved by grace itself. That's exactly what the gnostics believed. They believed that they were saved by a special spiritual conjunction (union) with grace, and ridiculed Christians who believed that grace was a means of sanctification. Here's Irenaeus on the gnostics in Against Heresies that shows these two characteristics. See if you notice the similarities:

... [the gnostics] run us [of the Church] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.

... to [the gnostics] who are called "the spiritual and perfect" ... it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [i.e., heaven], but [it is] the seed [of grace] sent forth thence [from heaven] in a feeble, immature state, and here [on earth] brought to perfection.
 
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HG what you are dealing with is a person whose mind is saturated in the gnostic spirit of the "grace" cult. She has some very pronounced manifestations of this spirit. For example, her condescending tone that talks down to you as if she is superior. Another example is her belief that salvation is not a sanctification process achieved through GOD's grace, but that people are saved by grace itself. That's exactly what the gnostics believed. They believed that they were saved by a special spiritual conjunction (union) with grace, and ridiculed Christians who believed that grace was a means of sanctification. Here's Irenaeus on the gnostics in Against Heresies that shows these two characteristics. See if you notice the similarities:

... [the gnostics] run us [of the Church] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.

... to [the gnostics] who are called "the spiritual and perfect" ... it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [i.e., heaven], but [it is] the seed [of grace] sent forth thence [from heaven] in a feeble, immature state, and here [on earth] brought to perfection.
This sums up the Hyper-Grace crowd. Thank You for posting this
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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Thank you HRFTD....
I was suspicious of this, but I've never had an actual conversation with one of those folks... I'm not completely sure that what I had with her was a conversation, either....:rolleyes:

I had difficulty in trying to understand her statements so that I could respond... like she was speaking an "insider" language, and I didn't have the code book.

Glad that's over.... while I certainly don't have all the answers, I'm trying to grow in wisdom as I go along. This is the first time I've been told I have a "serpent's tongue"..... I immediately went and checked in a mirror... didn't see it. :D
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Thank you HRFTD....
I was suspicious of this, but I've never had an actual conversation with one of those folks... I'm not completely sure that what I had with her was a conversation, either....:rolleyes:

I had difficulty in trying to understand her statements so that I could respond... like she was speaking an "insider" language, and I didn't have the code book.

Glad that's over.... while I certainly don't have all the answers, I'm trying to grow in wisdom as I go along. This is the first time I've been told I have a "serpent's tongue"..... I immediately went and checked in a mirror... didn't see it. :D
You discerned that correctly. She typically communicates in coded snippets of scripture that convey meaning only to those who have been indoctrinated in their hidden meanings defined by the cult. She shifted gears briefly and communicated normally; that's why I was able to gleen some distinct markers from what she said.
 
Feb 22, 2016
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You discerned that correctly. She typically communicates in coded snippets of scripture that convey meaning only to those who have been indoctrinated in their hidden meanings defined by the cult. She shifted gears briefly and communicated normally; that's why I was able to gleen some distinct markers from what she said.
Who or what is 'the cult' you refer to?
 
Feb 22, 2016
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They call themselves grace believers. It's also been labeled hyper-grace.
They actually call THEMSELVES 'grace believers' ?
And this is officially classified as a cult?
Is there an official leadership, like the old
JimJones or Branch Davidians or what was it....
Jeffries or something?
Also, what organization labels them hyper-grace?
And why?
I have heard of mormons, jw's, moonies, urantians, adventists,
zoroasters, rosicrucians, muslums, hindus, buddhists,
various cults and false religions, but 'the grace believers'?
Do they have an official doctrine or their own 'bible/teachings'?
I appreciate any info. Thx.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,769
1,446
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I don't know much about them, but I gather that there are some "televangelists" that are teaching it.

There have been a BUNCH of threads in this forum about it... perhaps one of those has some links, or names of the leaders.

It's pretty much new to me, too.

I don't know if it's been officially labeled as a cult, but it's pretty obvious from their postings that they definitely qualify...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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LOL..there is no such cult called "grace believers" or hyper-grace..the "hyper-gace" name is a construct of Dr. Brown who doesn't agree with some teachings of the grace of Christ.....here is a video of a guy defending the gospel of the grace of Christ.


[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]




I don't know much about them, but I gather that there are some "televangelists" that are teaching it.

There have been a BUNCH of threads in this forum about it... perhaps one of those has some links, or names of the leaders.

It's pretty much new to me, too.

I don't know if it's been officially labeled as a cult, but it's pretty obvious from their postings that they definitely qualify...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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There is no such thing as the cult of "grace believers"..HeRose made that up...LOL......this CC is filled with true grace believers....If people don't agree with some things they label you as a cult..it's foolishness and demonic influenced....

Everyone would be labeled in a cult except for what they believe...that's how it goes with self-proclaimed heretic hunters....it's just the nature of the beast.....:)


They actually call THEMSELVES 'grace believers' ?
And this is officially classified as a cult?
Is there an official leadership, like the old
JimJones or Branch Davidians or what was it....
Jeffries or something?
Also, what organization labels them hyper-grace?
And why?
I have heard of mormons, jw's, moonies, urantians, adventists,
zoroasters, rosicrucians, muslums, hindus, buddhists,
various cults and false religions, but 'the grace believers'?
Do they have an official doctrine or their own 'bible/teachings'?
I appreciate any info. Thx.
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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LOL..it's a construct of HeRose's mind....there is no such thing as a cult of 'grace believers"..that's hilarious! He doesn't agree with some teachings about the grace of Christ in His finished work and thus those people are satanic...it's foolishness,....the person you guys are talking about..I have no idea what they believe about the grace of Christ..HeRose just used that to attack "grace believers"

...it's a common thing to be mis-represented and accused of all kinds of garbage...this CC is full of true grace believers....people that have a works-based salvation mindset are especially aggressive against the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ...it's the nature of the beast...:)


I don't know much about them, but I gather that there are some "televangelists" that are teaching it.

There have been a BUNCH of threads in this forum about it... perhaps one of those has some links, or names of the leaders.

It's pretty much new to me, too.

I don't know if it's been officially labeled as a cult, but it's pretty obvious from their postings that they definitely qualify...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I encourage you to go read the threads about grace and you'll see what is truly happening.....read it for yourself as most things get mis-represented by others.

Hear it from the "horse's mouth" yourself on the threads as you read them. There are accusations that come all the time that are "twisted" and they put a "spin" on what is said...continually making a "straw-man" up and then tearing it down but as you see on the threads..all this foolishness and slander is answered.

We have a good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus...check it out...:)


I don't know much about them, but I gather that there are some "televangelists" that are teaching it.

There have been a BUNCH of threads in this forum about it... perhaps one of those has some links, or names of the leaders.

It's pretty much new to me, too.

I don't know if it's been officially labeled as a cult, but it's pretty obvious from their postings that they definitely qualify...