LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#1
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#2
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
Maybe so, but logic and reason are not the same.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,996
1,256
113
Texas
#3
I see you are a bit of a Christian philosopher. Nice, I think of myself this way as well.
I could never be an atheist.
What a grim and horrific will to live, to cling to this earnest of hell for fear of what is veiled from the imagination. That the terrors of this age are not greater than the horror of the unknown to come.
To claw at what passing pleasure and escape for the mind from the lurking thought ever present in the recesses and shadowed corners, of the inevitable, because the blackness of fear in the gulf of oblivion beyond, terrifies the very soul.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,732
106
63
#4
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
I haven't read any posts but one and it appears you sir are an atheist or at the very least, very carnally minded. People who are worldly minded, such as yourself, base all their reasoning on the laws of nature and the natural course of this physical world.
There is a difference between Godly reasoning and human logic.
Besides that, if you were to keep the word logos in Jn 1:1 in context, it does NOT, I repeat, does NOT mean, the principle of reason.
You might as well say Jesus was gay because He loved Lazarus.
Anyone who doesn't walk with God will not be able to receive truth, but will sure pervert the living word of God, as you have just demonstrated.
That is why you screwed the word in Jn 1:1 up so badly.
There is also more than one kind or form of biblical reasoning, and carnal logic is spoken of as the lowest and basest of forms.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnally minded person CANNOT operate in the kingdom of God.
You CANNOT apply worldly knowledge and understandings and expect to live by faith.
For the just shall live by faith, and logic is not of faith.
An example of the difference between Godly reason and carnal knowledge or worldly logic, is,

Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Num 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#5
I see you are a bit of a Christian philosopher. Nice, I think of myself this way as well.
I could never be an atheist.
What a grim and horrific will to live, to cling to this earnest of hell for fear of what is veiled from the imagination. That the terrors of this age are not greater than the horror of the unknown to come.
To claw at what passing pleasure and escape for the mind from the lurking thought ever present in the recesses and shadowed corners, of the inevitable, because the blackness of fear in the gulf of oblivion beyond, terrifies the very soul.
A atheist must deny reality and in doing so they must hold illogical conclusions.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#6
I haven't read any posts but one and it appears you sir are an atheist or at the very least, very carnally minded. People who are worldly minded, such as yourself, base all their reasoning on the laws of nature and the natural course of this physical world.
There is a difference between Godly reasoning and human logic.
Besides that, if you were to keep the word logos in Jn 1:1 in context, it does NOT, I repeat, does NOT mean, the principle of reason.
You might as well say Jesus was gay because He loved Lazarus.
Anyone who doesn't walk with God will not be able to receive truth, but will sure pervert the living word of God, as you have just demonstrated.
That is why you screwed the word in Jn 1:1 up so badly.
There is also more than one kind or form of biblical reasoning, and carnal logic is spoken of as the lowest and basest of forms.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnally minded person CANNOT operate in the kingdom of God.
You CANNOT apply worldly knowledge and understandings and expect to live by faith.
For the just shall live by faith, and logic is not of faith.
An example of Godly reason and carnal knowledge or worldly logic is,

Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Num 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Scripture also tells us to judge rightly
John 7:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

You have made a judgment off of a assumption as you said quote, "I haven't read any posts but one and it appears you sir are an atheist."

Definition of atheist is

Atheist- a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods.

Well if a judge is to judge correctly they would look at all the evidence being my other posts.

I believe in God so your 1st assumption is wrong. You could be more specific on your assumptions. Maybe say I believe you do not hold a Biblical worldview. That is more reasonable from the evidence of one post.

But still not very honest when you haven't read anything else. Carnal humon logic is illogical. We are only logical by abiding in God the source of logic, logos, the Word.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,898
3,518
113
#7
LOGIC IS BEDROCK
This may be taking things to an extreme, bu calling logic "bedrock". Only Christ is bedrock, being the Rock of Ages as well as the only Foundation which God has provided.

The three laws of logic simply say that A is A and is not equal to B or C. So logic is fine in its place but does not have any application in the supernatural or spiritual realm.

According to human reasoning there is ABSOLUTELY NO LOGIC in the cross of Christ. Indeed for the logical and philosophical Greeks it was foolishness. The same applied to the resurrection of Christ. The Athenians mocked, while others dismissed it for another day.

However Divine Logic is different from human naturalistic logic and Christianity is paradoxical. Therefore the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, and they are foolishness to him.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#8
This may be taking things to an extreme, bu calling logic "bedrock". Only Christ is bedrock, being the Rock of Ages as well as the only Foundation which God has provided.

The three laws of logic simply say that A is A and is not equal to B or C. So logic is fine in its place but does not have any application in the supernatural or spiritual realm.

According to human reasoning there is ABSOLUTELY NO LOGIC in the cross of Christ. Indeed for the logical and philosophical Greeks it was foolishness. The same applied to the resurrection of Christ. The Athenians mocked, while others dismissed it for another day.

However Divine Logic is different from human naturalistic logic and Christianity is paradoxical. Therefore the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, and they are foolishness to him.
The Word, logos, logic is bedrock. The Word became flesh. Who is Jesus. But hey it isn't the body of Christ in less someone disagrees or is critical lol.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#9
This may be taking things to an extreme, bu calling logic "bedrock". Only Christ is bedrock, being the Rock of Ages as well as the only Foundation which God has provided.

The three laws of logic simply say that A is A and is not equal to B or C. So logic is fine in its place but does not have any application in the supernatural or spiritual realm.

According to human reasoning there is ABSOLUTELY NO LOGIC in the cross of Christ. Indeed for the logical and philosophical Greeks it was foolishness. The same applied to the resurrection of Christ. The Athenians mocked, while others dismissed it for another day.

However Divine Logic is different from human naturalistic logic and Christianity is paradoxical. Therefore the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, and they are foolishness to him.
Your missing the connection of the source of logic being connected to Jesus who was God. Nothing more, nothing less than a explanation showing mans thoughts without God is the very essence of illogical.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
2,706
558
113
#10
I haven't read any posts but one and it appears you sir are an atheist or at the very least, very carnally minded. People who are worldly minded, such as yourself, base all their reasoning on the laws of nature and the natural course of this physical world.
There is a difference between Godly reasoning and human logic.
Besides that, if you were to keep the word logos in Jn 1:1 in context, it does NOT, I repeat, does NOT mean, the principle of reason.
You might as well say Jesus was gay because He loved Lazarus.
Anyone who doesn't walk with God will not be able to receive truth, but will sure pervert the living word of God, as you have just demonstrated.
That is why you screwed the word in Jn 1:1 up so badly.
There is also more than one kind or form of biblical reasoning, and carnal logic is spoken of as the lowest and basest of forms.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnally minded person CANNOT operate in the kingdom of God.
You CANNOT apply worldly knowledge and understandings and expect to live by faith.
For the just shall live by faith, and logic is not of faith.
An example of the difference between Godly reason and carnal knowledge or worldly logic, is,

Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
Num 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
You might want to remember that in Greek Jesus Himself, the Word, is called LOGOS.
Logic we have is I believe some remnant of the glory of divine mind, of which Adam lost a lot, being in a fallen state.
It is not logic that is ungodly, but the problem is that that human mind is subjected to human heart, which is wicked.
So then you have ungodly people who want to justify themselves and deny God in their hearts, and they employ their minds against God to justify themselves. Of course this has no foundation and is based upon reading into the Bible and other errors in thinking, and that's why Christian apologetics exists, to correct these errors in reasoning. A reasonable mind will understand when is the time to just trust God. The thing is that God is the first premise in the mind of the believer. This isn't so with the unfaithful.
Roughsoul is a study guy, and brings a lot to the table. Rather than being against him, don't you think that God will use him to minister to the atheists, who are very cerebrally minded. I've read some of his other posts and he's very knowledgeable in the area of Christian apologetics.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#11
Maybe so, but logic and reason are not the same.
Can't have one without the other to be Biblically logical.

logic-
is the systematic study of the form of arguments
reason-
is the application of logic to understand and judge something
 
Sep 3, 2016
3,883
343
83
#12
The world operates on facts and reasoning. A Child of God operates by Faith and Truth a higher level that knows when the facts meet the Truth it will be changed for your benefit.

Without the Lord, some minor victories may be won, but at a fearful price. With Jesus Christ, it is total victory, at no loss whatsoever.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,829
5,516
113
#13
God's word, His Son, is reasonable and sound. God makes perfect sense, even when we don't understand. We were even given the spirit of a sound mind.



So yes let us reason together, using the most reasonable ever, God...His word and His Spirit.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,898
3,518
113
#14
The Word, logos, logic is bedrock. The Word became flesh. Who is Jesus.
Jesus is called "the Word" or "the Logos" because He "declares" God to mankind in His Person, in His words, in His miracles, and in His finished work of redemption. He is the "Divine Expression", who also created the universe with His own words out of nothing. He is also the Wisdom of God.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared* [ἐξηγήσατο (exēgēsato)] him. (John 1:18)

* Strong's Concordance
exégeomai: to show the way
Original Word: ἐξηγέομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exégeomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-ayg-eh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to show the way
Usage: I lead, show the way; met: I unfold, narrate, declare.


One could say (based on the Greek word) that Jesus has "exegeted" the Father to mankind. That is why Christ said to Philip: He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Jn 14:9).

But by the same token the logic of Christ was illogical to the unbelieving Jews or to the natural man. How can the first be the last, and the last be the first? How can the widow's mite be of greater value than all the wealth poured out by the wealthy? How can a person have life by dying? How can anyone eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink His blood? All of this is based on Divine logic, but for the natural man it is all foolishness.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,829
5,516
113
#15
This is another why to us all needing the most reasonable Christ.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
2,706
558
113
#16
God's word, His Son, is reasonable and sound. God makes perfect sense, even when we don't understand. We were even given the spirit of a sound mind.

So yes let us reason together, using the most reasonable ever, God...His word and His Spirit.
You are right Sis. The unbelievers cannot be reasonable at all, because their main premise is a lie.
The devil introduced lies into the minds of people... which messes up all their thoughts and renders their mental ability useless.
"Ever learning and never being able to come to the knowledge of the truth", because they like sin.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
43,275
16,457
113
#17
Maybe so, but logic and reason are not the same.
I would agree.....there are many things that logically seem correct or right in man's eyes, but in the end lead to death.....I also disagree with the definition given to Logos.....The Word does not necessarily equate to logic.... this post sounds a little humanistic to me....
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
2,706
558
113
#18
I would agree.....there are many things that logically seem correct or right in man's eyes, but in the end lead to death.....I also disagree with the definition given to Logos.....The Word does not necessarily equate to logic.... this post sounds a little humanistic to me....
I agree Jesus does not equate to logic. Since I mentioned Logos too, I'll make that clear. :)
No, while they are not identical, the point was rather than logic and reasoning isn't so hostile or foreign or in opposition to God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
113
#19
Jesus is called "the Word" or "the Logos" because He "declares" God to mankind in His Person, in His words, in His miracles, and in His finished work of redemption. He is the "Divine Expression", who also created the universe with His own words out of nothing. He is also the Wisdom of God.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared* [ἐξηγήσατο (exēgēsato)] him. (John 1:18)

* Strong's Concordance
exégeomai: to show the way
Original Word: ἐξηγέομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exégeomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-ayg-eh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to show the way
Usage: I lead, show the way; met: I unfold, narrate, declare.


One could say (based on the Greek word) that Jesus has "exegeted" the Father to mankind. That is why Christ said to Philip: He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Jn 14:9).

But by the same token the logic of Christ was illogical to the unbelieving Jews or to the natural man. How can the first be the last, and the last be the first? How can the widow's mite be of greater value than all the wealth poured out by the wealthy? How can a person have life by dying? How can anyone eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink His blood? All of this is based on Divine logic, but for the natural man it is all foolishness.
I think your still missing the point.
This is fun as I agree with you. Your defining logic as a human concept. When these laws do not come from us but of God. Who is true source of logic. Until we lean into God or the Spirit then everything we think is illogical.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#20
I think your still missing the point.
This is fun as I agree with you. Your defining logic as a human concept. When these laws do not come from us but of God. Who is true source of logic. Until we lean into God or the Spirit then everything we think is illogical.
So the ancient Greek philosophers received their knowledge of "logic" from God?