LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#21
Can't have one without the other to be Biblically logical.

logic-
is the systematic study of the form of arguments
reason-
is the application of logic to understand and judge something
Actually you can, reasoning based on empirical evidence does not require formal logic
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#22
So the ancient Greek philosophers received their knowledge of "logic" from God?
Philosophy does make impact upon language by charging it with ideas, and this can be said also about the idea of Logos, which existed in language before the Gospel was written down. Another example, The Word was in Chinese Bible rendered as Tao/Dao, or The Way, which comes from the book of Tao Te Ching (nothing to do with I Ching: I Ching is a worthless divination book; Tao Te Ching is a collection of wisdom sayings). In each language of man words were already charged with ideas, even before the Gospel was written down, or translated from Greek. The idea of Logos in Greek philosophy predates Christ for several centuries.

Apostle Paul is known to quote Greek thinkers, as he knew Greek philosophy fairly well. This also served the purpose to help lead the Gentiles into the truth of the Gospel.
Acts 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.'"
In 1 Cor 9:24 and multiple other places, Paul quotes Plato. He also quotes Socrates, Seneca, and some written works from Greek literature. Obviously God found this acceptable, because it was true and so it agreed with the Spirit.

This is not to say philosophy is on par with the Bible in any way...
It simply means that even among the Gentile nations who didn't know God, there were always men who perceived some truth, and looked for God, making some correct conclusions about God, while searching for truth in reasoning about ideas.
But we have the fullness of truth in Jesus.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#23
The world operates on facts and reasoning. A Child of God operates by Faith and Truth a higher level that knows when the facts meet the Truth it will be changed for your benefit.

Without the Lord, some minor victories may be won, but at a fearful price. With Jesus Christ, it is total victory, at no loss whatsoever.
Facts are true by definition. The only difference is the interpretater. Logic is of God. God is the source of all logic. We can either have sound reasoning or unreasonable conclusions. Sound reasoning comes from the use of logic, the logos, the Word.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#25
Actually you can, reasoning based on empirical evidence does not require formal logic
You heard it here first folks! I know I did. Empirical and formal. WE BACK TO GOOGLING WORDS BOYS.

Im reading the thread but I dont wanna say anything, LEST i put my empirical foot in my formal mouth!
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
2,706
558
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#26
I've got to add that I disagree with you @Roughsoul1991 about narrowing Logos as "principle of reason", and I believe that's why some other people disagree... although I'm aware you didn't have that intent, it seems a little narrow definition for God. And "reason" looks like it should be more like "cause and effect" thing, because Jesus created the world. Aka, Jesus is the reason everything exists. I don't necessarily think "logic" in mathematical sense when I think about God, but actually orderliness is also a part of the divine mind and intelligence (like, Pi and the golden ratio in creation), so I don't think you're wrong; it's just the term is a bit tight.

Fun facts: how did Greek thinkers see logos?

SAYING/WORD/WISDOM
REASON, CAUSE (Heraclitus)
GIVING EACH MAN ABILITY TO DISCERN GOOD FROM EVIL, AND BE WISER THAN BEASTS (Aristotle)
DIVINE. PERMEATING AND ANIMATING THE UNIVERSE. EACH HUMAN POSSESSES A PORTION OF LOGOS (Stoicism)
THE FIRST-BORN OF GOD. CREATIVE PRINCIPLE, BINDING ALL THINGS TOGETHER (Philo of Alexandria)

(Later thinkers are heavily influenced by Christianity, so I did not list them.)
It's interesting what thoughts were in the air, charging the word Logos before the Bible was written down. Jesus chose Greek for the language of the New Testament, and I think we can see why. They had some incomplete truths in circulation. It looks like God was stirring up some of their thinkers and preparing the Gentiles to receive the truth. The word "logos" was getting progressively charged with more and more divine understanding/definition of it. It was almost like an expectation for Jesus was growing to come and fill that seat... and He did :)
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#27
I've got to add that I disagree with you @Roughsoul1991 about narrowing Logos as "principle of reason", and I believe that's why some other people disagree... although I'm aware you didn't have that intent, it seems a little narrow definition for God. And "reason" looks like it should be more like "cause and effect" thing, because Jesus created the world. Aka, Jesus is the reason everything exists. I don't necessarily think "logic" in mathematical sense when I think about God, but actually orderliness is also a part of the divine mind and intelligence (like, Pi and the golden ratio in creation), so I don't think you're wrong; it's just the term is a bit tight.

Fun facts: how did Greek thinkers see logos?

SAYING/WORD/WISDOM
REASON, CAUSE (Heraclitus)
GIVING EACH MAN ABILITY TO DISCERN GOOD FROM EVIL, AND BE WISER THAN BEASTS (Aristotle)
DIVINE. PERMEATING AND ANIMATING THE UNIVERSE. EACH HUMAN POSSESSES A PORTION OF LOGOS (Stoicism)
THE FIRST-BORN OF GOD. CREATIVE PRINCIPLE, BINDING ALL THINGS TOGETHER (Philo of Alexandria)

(Later thinkers are heavily influenced by Christianity, so I did not list them.)
It's interesting what thoughts were in the air, charging the word Logos before the Bible was written down. Jesus chose Greek for the language of the New Testament, and I think we can see why. They had some incomplete truths in circulation. It looks like God was stirring up some of their thinkers and preparing the Gentiles to receive the truth. The word "logos" was getting progressively charged with more and more divine understanding/definition of it. It was almost like an expectation for Jesus was growing to come and fill that seat... and He did :)
Where I think the disconnect is that everyone seems to define logic differently.

This is just simple to me. If God is the source of all truth and scripture warns us about the foolishness of the world. If God is the source then the only way one can think correctly is to lean on God.

Otherwise I dont care if the atheist says they are logical. God calls them foolish which is the illogical stance.

Not sure yet what some people thought I meant but that's okay it's all in the fun of understanding why as one individual said they think I was a atheist. I would like to understand him better. More than likely I have put much study in these areas and it just makes sense to me where as to others it is kinda a foreign language.

I haven't found one room of Christians to yet all 100% believe the same on theology. So it is very interesting to see what people split over, what areas of theology people struggle with, or even what subjects the church hides from.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#28
So the ancient Greek philosophers received their knowledge of "logic" from God?
What does the ancient Greek philosophers have to do with anything?

Are you referring to the word Logos?

The Word may derive from Greek but the Word of God in the NT was first translated in Greek. If the word logic is derived from Logos.

And lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ as explained in John 1:1

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Word translated as Logos.

Jesus is part of the trinity so He is God in the flesh.

Therefore to be logical is to lean on God the source of logic, logos, the Word. The very laws of logic are evidence of a all logical, Intelligent God.

Some one above mentioned that man can not be logical from his own understanding. Agreed. This only comes from leaning on the author of truth. God Almighty.

If anyone is reading more into this than that then that is on them. You can try to translate logos to mean something else but I think anything else is a stretch to do so.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#29
Logic is relative.

There is man’s logic and God’s logic.

Since we live in a fallen imperfect world and are imperfect people.
How do we know that our decaying imperfect brains are capable of correct reasoning
and logic!

So for example God says all things are possible.

Luke 1:37 NKJV
[37] For with God nothing will be impossible."


Yet people would say its impossible to walk on water, suddenly appear in a
locked room, raise the dead, turn water into wine, multiply food, be taken up
in the spirit and be transported somewhere else, for the sea to be parted and so
much more.

Since God created the universe He created the laws of gravity, physics, energy,
relativity, maths, etc. All we have done is discover those laws but they can be
changed and altered by the creator God at any time.

Man’s logic depends on his knowledge base and foundational beliefs.
Some believe in creation, some evolution, some reincarnation, some in superstition etc.
Luke 1:37 NKJV

Our logic can change depending on our belief systems. God is unchanging in my logical
opinion.

Soooo it’s logical to assume, that we cannot be 100% certain we can be logical!
(Unless you are a Vulcan and they are a work of fiction). But what would I know I’m only a
woman and everyone knows women are illogical! Lol
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,129
700
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#30
Logic is relative.

There is man’s logic and God’s logic.

Since we live in a fallen imperfect world and are imperfect people.
How do we know that our decaying imperfect brains are capable of correct reasoning
and logic!

So for example God says all things are possible.

Luke 1:37 NKJV
[37] For with God nothing will be impossible."


Yet people would say its impossible to walk on water, suddenly appear in a
locked room, raise the dead, turn water into wine, multiply food, be taken up
in the spirit and be transported somewhere else, for the sea to be parted and so
much more.

Since God created the universe He created the laws of gravity, physics, energy,
relativity, maths, etc. All we have done is discover those laws but they can be
changed and altered by the creator God at any time.

Man’s logic depends on his knowledge base and foundational beliefs.
Some believe in creation, some evolution, some reincarnation, some in superstition etc.
Luke 1:37 NKJV

Our logic can change depending on our belief systems. God is unchanging in my logical
opinion.

Soooo it’s logical to assume, that we cannot be 100% certain we can be logical!
(Unless you are a Vulcan and they are a work of fiction). But what would I know I’m only a
woman and everyone knows women are illogical! Lol
A logical conclusion is based in truth. Is truth relative also? If you are 100% certain we cannot be logical, should I view your post as logical or illogical?

Does logic come from man? Or are the laws of logic immaterial just as the moral law or that math isn't the product of a human mind either, but rather the product of the mind of God. Since God has always existed and thought, the laws of mathematics, logic, and the moral law are also eternal, existing before people.

Logic comes from God. Illogic comes from mankind. Only way mankind can think logically is in all things leaning not on their own understanding but of Gods. You do this and your beliefs represent reality while those who do not lean on God have a false reality born from illogical ideas and unreasonable thinking.

Romans 1 speaks on the invincible qualities of God
Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God is easily seen in mathematics, laws of logic, laws of physics, morality, Laws of Thermodynamics, law of biogenesis, etc.

https://answersingenesis.org/is-god-real/god-natural-law

You said God can change the laws anytime. God could but that is a assumption with no evidence but our reality shows every natural law we examine hasn't changed. The laws of light including the speed of light measuring past astronomical events or the laws of radiation haven't changed. Everything is fine tuned and one little mathematical change and life wouldn't be possible. This is how powerful and Intelligent God is.

Everything has been fine tuned and goal directed from a beginning to a end. Everything is goal directed to a pre programming. A pre programming by a programmer.

The Bible represents reality and reality is a reflection of God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,129
700
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#31
A logical conclusion is based in truth. Is truth relative also? If you are 100% certain we cannot be logical, should I view your post as logical or illogical?

Does logic come from man? Or are the laws of logic immaterial just as the moral law or that math isn't the product of a human mind either, but rather the product of the mind of God. Since God has always existed and thought, the laws of mathematics, logic, and the moral law are also eternal, existing before people.

Logic comes from God. Illogic comes from mankind. Only way mankind can think logically is in all things leaning not on their own understanding but of Gods. You do this and your beliefs represent reality while those who do not lean on God have a false reality born from illogical ideas and unreasonable thinking.

Romans 1 speaks on the invincible qualities of God
Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God is easily seen in mathematics, laws of logic, laws of physics, morality, Laws of Thermodynamics, law of biogenesis, etc.

https://answersingenesis.org/is-god-real/god-natural-law

You said God can change the laws anytime. God could but that is a assumption with no evidence but our reality shows every natural law we examine hasn't changed. The laws of light including the speed of light measuring past astronomical events or the laws of radiation haven't changed. Everything is fine tuned and one little mathematical change and life wouldn't be possible. This is how powerful and Intelligent God is.

Everything has been fine tuned and goal directed from a beginning to a end. Everything is goal directed to a pre programming. A pre programming by a programmer.

The Bible represents reality and reality is a reflection of God.
***Correction auto replaced wrong word. Invincible should be invisible.***
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#32
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
I would disagree with you on the points above in general.

And, proper doctrine leads to doxology, which is proper worship.

This is where some charismatics and Pentecostals fail....some even consider it ungodly to base one's worship on an academic understanding of theology, church history, and deeper study of the Bible. Instead, they think others should swallow their "revelations".

I'm not sure how I feel about the Cross Examined staff, though. Some of their explanations are pretty weak. I think Greg Koukl at "Stand to Reason" is more coherent.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#33
I would disagree with you on the points above in general.

And, proper doctrine leads to doxology, which is proper worship.

This is where some charismatics and Pentecostals fail....some even consider it ungodly to base one's worship on an academic understanding of theology, church history, and deeper study of the Bible. Instead, they think others should swallow their "revelations".

I'm not sure how I feel about the Cross Examined staff, though. Some of their explanations are pretty weak. I think Greg Koukl at "Stand to Reason" is more coherent.
I gots a question: What have you found about worship from CHURCH HISTORY, particularly. Do they mention anything of it?

I grew up around pentecostals, most saved people I know are STILL pentecostal and they do tell me about their visitations to heaven, God told me this, God told me that, God protected me from this, God protected me from that, I met Jesus when I had pneumonia Jesus walked into the room asked if I believe and healed me.. ETC.

Now thats enough to have most people RUNNING to the door. I was like that growing up, ALWAYS discrediting their claims and doubting their mental state! BUT as I have grown up I have learned to instead say "PRAISE GOD; AMEN!" WHY? Because: I cant prove they are lying, second, WHAT exactly is wrong about any of those things I mentioned? They arent anti-biblical, and they arent SIN. There is no sin in saying I saw JEsus and he healed me. NO SIN INVOLVED. Its a great thing to strenghten their faith.

Now if someone tells me that "God told me..:" and its something UNBIBLICAL that I can show from the BIBLE is false, I will bring it up with them INSTANTLY and say YOU GOT THE WRONG SPIRIT TALKING TO YOU this time around! I have done that TWICE and both times they have chosen the BIBLE over their own FEELINGS, which I told them is COMMENDABLE, since many people REFUSE to do that!
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#34
I would disagree with you on the points above in general.

And, proper doctrine leads to doxology, which is proper worship.

This is where some charismatics and Pentecostals fail....some even consider it ungodly to base one's worship on an academic understanding of theology, church history, and deeper study of the Bible. Instead, they think others should swallow their "revelations".

I'm not sure how I feel about the Cross Examined staff, though. Some of their explanations are pretty weak. I think Greg Koukl at "Stand to Reason" is more coherent.
What points do you disagree with?

Not sure how your paragraph on charismatic or Pentecostal is related.

You say weak I say strong but stand to reason and cross examination work regularly together. Frank Turek, Greg Koukl, Richard Howe, J.Warner Wallace, Brett Kunkle, Sean McDowell, Bobby Conway and others regularly work together or do seminars together.

But they all working towards the same goal so if someone's bullet fits better in your gun then dont hesitate to use it.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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#35
There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:
Interesting topic.

While I haven't had a chance to review the source material you cited yet couldn't help but notice that there is no reference to 'faith' in your summary of the article. Since 'reason' is a critical element of faith being the substance upon which the hope is founded, I find that a little peculiar.

It could be that I misperceived the purpose of the thread having presumed it was referring unto the process of engaging in a fruitful discussion, being what I would associate with the term rational interaction. But of course these type of forums make it harder to keep a discussion on topic by those who are best described within Deuteronomy 32:20.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,129
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#36
Interesting topic.

While I haven't had a chance to review the source material you cited yet couldn't help but notice that there is no reference to 'faith' in your summary of the article. Since 'reason' is a critical element of faith being the substance upon which the hope is founded, I find that a little peculiar.

It could be that I misperceived the purpose of the thread having presumed it was referring unto the process of engaging in a fruitful discussion, being what I would associate with the term rational interaction. But of course these type of forums make it harder to keep a discussion on topic by those who are best described within Deuteronomy 32:20.
Our universal laws are of God. They are an example of who God is as in design and morality. God fine tuned all things. Everything has a design and a path or goal it must reach. God sustains all things as we see the laws are unchanging. If one was to change it could end life as we know it.

Laws of logic are just the same. Mankind are made in the image of God as soulish humans. We are dualistic in nature where body responds and the mind thinks.

Soulish beings have the ability to think and also the law of morality that intercedes and guides in a universal sense of right and wrong so that none are without excuse.

God causes us to be without excuse through natural and supernatural revelation. We can choose to respond to that inner conscience to do good just as we can respond to logic.

If the Word is God and God is the source of logic then to be the most logical we must respond to the natural and supernatural revelations of God which is putting faith in these revelations.

God in the flesh was the Word, the word is translated Logos. Logic is derived from Logos. So God is the bedrock for all things logical and reasonable if only we will abide in him.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#38
Could you give an example of one of these 'universal laws' which is of God?
All are of God. God created the universe so the laws of gravity are designed by God, the laws of mathematics, radiation, thermodynamics, physics are examples of God's intelligence, design, and order sustainability.

Law of morality is a group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason.

Laws of logic are of Gods wisdom. God is all truthful and all logical. So God is the source of Logic. Without God or the ignoring of God leads to illogical beliefs.

Hope I'm being understandable.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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#39
The reason I ask is because I use the term 'principle' to describe what I think you are referring unto with the term 'universal law'.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,129
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#40
The reason I ask is because I use the term 'principle' to describe what I think you are referring unto with the term 'universal law'.
Describe principle. I may adopt it to make my understanding clearer.