LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
111
27
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#41
All are of God. God created the universe so the laws of gravity are designed by God, the laws of mathematics, radiation, thermodynamics, physics are examples of God's intelligence, design, and order sustainability.
Every discipline of science will have for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. You can call them laws but they have distinguishable difference. Man can make laws but he cannot make principles; he can only discover them. (Source: Thomas Paine Quote)

Describe principle. I may adopt it to make my understanding clearer.
Just to let you know I am a slow typer so it might take me a little longer than most to reply.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,140
709
113
#42
Every discipline of science will have for its basis a system of principles as fixed and unalterable as those by which the universe is regulated and governed. You can call them laws but they have distinguishable difference. Man can make laws but he cannot make principles; he can only discover them. (Source: Thomas Paine Quote)


Just to let you know I am a slow typer so it might take me a little longer than most to reply.
Yes agreed. I just think more people know what laws are faster than if I say principles lol
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
111
27
28
#43
Yes agreed. I just think more people know what laws are faster than if I say principles lol
And that is a shame too considering that without them one cannot overcome to eat of the hidden manna but are merely tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine as children who believe yet can’t come to the knowledge that faith comes by hearing the Son of God. Which is not to say that reading the scriptures is without hope, but without a teacher there is no hope in reading the scriptures.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,140
709
113
#47
Yes, but I do not understand why you would conclude that logic it fundamental to the reading of scripture
Your using logic to read scripture. You cannot separate the laws of logic in anything you do. You can be illogical and ignore them or the further someones grows away from God's revelations the more illogical they become.

Your using those laws now to think through this subject or to have a counter thought.

Your made in the image of God so we are capable of being logical thinking beings if we abide in the source of truth.

Unfortunately for us sin separates us and emotions can be confusing so these often clouds our thoughts or beliefs if we stay separated from God or fail to work through the emotions.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,760
418
83
65
Texas
#48
Your using logic to read scripture. You cannot separate the laws of logic in anything you do. You can be illogical and ignore them or the further someones grows away from God's revelations the more illogical they become.

Your using those laws now to think through this subject or to have a counter thought.

Your made in the image of God so we are capable of being logical thinking beings if we abide in the source of truth.

Unfortunately for us sin separates us and emotions can be confusing so these often clouds our thoughts or beliefs if we stay separated from God or fail to work through the emotions.
Would you agree that logic is the product of deduction based on the observable regularities of natural processes?
 
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
43
#49
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah
DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
I like what you have to say Roughsoul. As I understand the Greek word Logos, it can be translated as Reason,or Word, or First thought (idea). I like to think of it as the divine patterning and implicit plan towards which the universe is heading. In other words it is purposeful and heading somewhere. John equated this idea from greek philosophy with Christ Jesus.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,140
709
113
#50
I like what you have to say Roughsoul. As I understand the Greek word Logos, it can be translated as Reason,or Word, or First thought (idea). I like to think of it as the divine patterning and implicit plan towards which the universe is heading. In other words it is purposeful and heading somewhere. John equated this idea from greek philosophy with Christ Jesus.
Very true. Loved how Paul would defend the Gospel using ideas, thoughts, examples, or objects of that culture to get his message across to the audience. We should learn from this in order to speak to our Godless culture.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,840
5,528
113
#51
Yes, but I do not understand why you would conclude that logic it fundamental to the reading of scripture
@Roughsoul1991 I am eager for you to answer this and to understand what oldhermit is thinking. In other words, can you humor this sister and follow through your line of thinking with regards to this particular question.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,760
418
83
65
Texas
#52
Well, we'll start with this and see where it goes.

Logic is really nothing more than a human reasoning toward observable regularities experienced in the natural world. For example, I know that every time I throw a rock in the air, it will inevitably come down. I know this because every time I have thrown a rock in the air, that has always been the result. I can, therefore, reason toward a logical conclusion based this statistical regularity.

The bible, however, was not written to appeal to human logic or reason, it was written to appeal to faith, and it does this on almost every page. Logic is rooted in and limited to what we can experiences with the five senses. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see. Scripture would have us look beyond the limitations of logic and embrace a reality that is beyond all human comprehension. The world would call this irrationality, but scripture calls it faith.

Scripture is replete with examples of the “irrational.” It is not rational or logical to believe that three men can be thrown into a furnace of fire for an extended period and emerge unharmed and with not even so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes, Daniel 3:24-27. It is patently absurd to believe that the earth can suddenly and instantaneously cease its rotational pattern for several hours without dramatically disturbing gravitational forces, Joshua 10:12-14. There is nothing in our experience within the field of human biology to suggest that a virgin can conceive a child or that someone who had been dead and entombed for four days can be raised simply by verbal command to rejoin the living. All of these examples are certainly inconsistent with our experience in observable regularities. These things cannot be rationalized based upon a logical appeal to natural processes. What these things serve to demonstrate is that God is not constrained by natural process, nor is the universe governed by such.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,140
709
113
#53
@Roughsoul1991 I am eager for you to answer this and to understand what oldhermit is thinking. In other words, can you humor this sister and follow through your line of thinking with regards to this particular question.
Your using logic to read scripture. You cannot separate the laws of logic in anything you do. You can be illogical and ignore them or the further someones grows away from God's revelations the more illogical they become.

Your using those laws now to think through this subject or to have a counter thought.

Your made in the image of God so we are capable of being logical thinking beings if we abide in the source of truth.

Unfortunately for us sin separates us and emotions can be confusing so these often clouds our thoughts or beliefs if we stay separated from God or fail to work through the emotions.
This was my response. I would add if the gentiles who had not heard of the written law was still without excuse then they was still held to a standard that God expected them to respond to. Responding to such truth would take them putting faith into whatever revelation God provided for them and by this simultaneously took right judgment and reasoning.

Laws of logic just as math it takes us to do certain things a certain way for math to be correct. Same as logic. Everyone can use logic. Every now and then even a broken clock is right once a day. Being that the unbeliever is the broken clock in sin.

To be the most logical is to search and follow the source of logic and that is God. This is how we come to the most logical conclusions.

Hope I didn't confuse that.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,084
1,057
113
#54
What points do you disagree with?

Not sure how your paragraph on charismatic or Pentecostal is related.

You say weak I say strong but stand to reason and cross examination work regularly together. Frank Turek, Greg Koukl, Richard Howe, J.Warner Wallace, Brett Kunkle, Sean McDowell, Bobby Conway and others regularly work together or do seminars together.

But they all working towards the same goal so if someone's bullet fits better in your gun then dont hesitate to use it.
John is likely referring to one of two things when he refers to Jesus as the Logos:

1) the creative force implied in Genesis 1 by "God spoke". Jesus was the one who created all things
2) the ordering force that created all things, according to Greek philosophy..in Greek philosophy, the Logos was impersonal but
given the teaching that follows, John is showing that this "Logos" was personal.

If one wants to say that the creation reflects logic, because the creation reflects the Creator, I would agree with that. If one wants to say that man should reason correctly and has an obligation to do so, because his created in the image of God, I would agree with that. If one wants to say that the believer is united with Christ spiritually, and has the mind of Christ as a result, I would agree with that.

I don't think human reasoning is the ultimate guide, though, as human reasoning is always subject to sin. The ultimate authority is the word of God, not human reasoning, no matter how much the person thinks their reasoning approaches God's mind.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,959
6,206
113
#55
I find this thread interesting in good and bad ways...

It's good that Roughsoul has started this thread and endeavoured to discuss the foundational principles of sound reasoning in discussion and argumentation.

It's unfortunate that the usual closed-minded response has been posted more than once: that logic is carnal thought, and that the person advocating the use of logic is carnally-minded. What rot.

As I've studied and employed logic, I've come to realize that God's word and ways are inherently and profoundly logical. At the same time, people on this site have tried to argue with me, claiming that that God's ways are "above" logic. What they are really saying is that their interpretation of Scripture is above logical examination. It's not surprising to find logical fallacies in their defense of their positions.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,084
1,057
113
#56
This was my response. I would add if the gentiles who had not heard of the written law was still without excuse then they was still held to a standard that God expected them to respond to. Responding to such truth would take them putting faith into whatever revelation God provided for them and by this simultaneously took right judgment and reasoning.

Laws of logic just as math it takes us to do certain things a certain way for math to be correct. Same as logic. Everyone can use logic. Every now and then even a broken clock is right once a day. Being that the unbeliever is the broken clock in sin.

To be the most logical is to search and follow the source of logic and that is God. This is how we come to the most logical conclusions.

Hope I didn't confuse that.
Regarding all humanity, they are made in the image of God. John Calvin used the analogy of a mirror. They were created to reflect the holiness of God, as well as other communicable attributes. At the Fall, this mirror was shattered, but it still reflects a distorted image of of God. Because of this "mirror", all mankind knows that certain acts of sin are against their design, and are accountable due to this mirror.

A mirror reflects the light of whatever it is pointed toward. Mankind was meant to have their orientation toward God. Unfortunately, due to the Fall, they have their mirror pointed toward other things, which is idolatry.

Fallen man is aware that his spiritual mirror is not intact, at some level. I believe that is what Romans 2 is describing. It is not the fuller revelation of the law of God (James describes the law as a mirror by the way), but the human conscience is a partial, damaged mirror. Being in the presence of God is a fuller exposure to the holiness of God, and I think that's what you see in Isaiah 6 when Isaiah becomes painfully aware of his sinfulness in the presence of God, and when Peter tells the LORD to depart from him, because he is a sinful man.

I wouldn't use the word "logic" to describe the image of God in man, though. I would use the phrase "image of God" or mirror. God's holiness is what the fallen man needs to see, not how illogical his thoughts are..although that comes along with it I guess, because Romans 1 describes man's thinking as futile. If he is exposed to the holiness of God, then that is when he becomes aware of that.

And, by the way, I believe that occurs because the person is regenerated, and the presence of God enters his sphere, and this presence of God exposes his sinfulness instantaneously....however you'd need to believe in regeneration preceding faith to understand that :)

Reformed theology comports to my experience, as well as my understanding of the Bible, so you can keep your synergistic views :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#57
I find this thread interesting in good and bad ways...

It's good that Roughsoul has started this thread and endeavoured to discuss the foundational principles of sound reasoning in discussion and argumentation.

It's unfortunate that the usual closed-minded response has been posted more than once: that logic is carnal thought, and that the person advocating the use of logic is carnally-minded. What rot.

As I've studied and employed logic, I've come to realize that God's word and ways are inherently and profoundly logical. At the same time, people on this site have tried to argue with me, claiming that that God's ways are "above" logic. What they are really saying is that their interpretation of Scripture is above logical examination. It's not surprising to find logical fallacies in their defense of their positions.
Except that "logic" as a discipline is only part of reasoning and critical thinking skills.

In inductive reasoning conclusions may be wrong even if the argument is strong and the premises are true.

So systems of logic do not always prevail.

Logic can add strength to an argument, it is however not synonymous with truth.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,878
113
#58
Well, we'll start with this and see where it goes.

Logic is really nothing more than a human reasoning toward observable regularities experienced in the natural world. For example, I know that every time I throw a rock in the air, it will inevitably come down. I know this because every time I have thrown a rock in the air, that has always been the result. I can, therefore, reason toward a logical conclusion based this statistical regularity.

The bible, however, was not written to appeal to human logic or reason, it was written to appeal to faith, and it does this on almost every page. Logic is rooted in and limited to what we can experiences with the five senses. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see. Scripture would have us look beyond the limitations of logic and embrace a reality that is beyond all human comprehension. The world would call this irrationality, but scripture calls it faith.

Scripture is replete with examples of the “irrational.” It is not rational or logical to believe that three men can be thrown into a furnace of fire for an extended period and emerge unharmed and with not even so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes, Daniel 3:24-27. It is patently absurd to believe that the earth can suddenly and instantaneously cease its rotational pattern for several hours without dramatically disturbing gravitational forces, Joshua 10:12-14. There is nothing in our experience within the field of human biology to suggest that a virgin can conceive a child or that someone who had been dead and entombed for four days can be raised simply by verbal command to rejoin the living. All of these examples are certainly inconsistent with our experience in observable regularities. These things cannot be rationalized based upon a logical appeal to natural processes. What these things serve to demonstrate is that God is not constrained by natural process, nor is the universe governed by such.

Except that isn't what logic is.

.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,760
418
83
65
Texas
#59
Except that isn't what logic is.

.
I believe that is precisely what logic is. Logic is nothing more than reasoning that follows toward a conclusion, whether right or wrong, based on observable evidences or an arranged set of facts.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,878
113
#60
I believe that is precisely what logic is. Logic is nothing more than reasoning that follows toward a conclusion, whether right or wrong, based on observable evidences or an arranged set of facts.

Logic, at the most fundamental level, flows from being, and being has no contingency upon human reasoning or even human existence.

Logic exists even if all humans disappear tomorrow.

We would all agree that God cannot lie or contradict himself.
When we say that God cannot contradict himself, we are asserting, without realizing it, that logic is an inherent part of God's nature.


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