LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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What is logical is not always true.
If logic is the science of how to evaluate arguments and reasoning... then surely this reference is not to only to logic but reasoning and critical thinking.

And in reality logic cannot always be employed to make those evaluations, thus the reason for other forms of thinking and reasoning.

If logic is an attribute of God are math and science also an attribute?
You are quite right. Human logic does not always produce a correct conclusion.

It is not science that is the problem. The problem is the interpretation of the evidences by the scientific community. They start with an assumption that cannot in any way be proven and then build theories upon false assumptions.

Logic, like any other attribute is often abused, that does not mean logic is not a quality of God. Love is a quality of God as well that man habitually perverts, does this mean that God is not love?

You are talking about the field of physics. Everything we regard as "laws of nature" falls is some area of physics. These "laws of nature," which I prefer to regard as sets of determined relations because they can be suspended and overturned by the will of God, are put into place by the Creator. I am not sure we could call math and science an attribute of God. I would suggest rather that both are a product of God.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You are quite right. Human logic does not always produce a correct conclusion.

It is not science that is the problem. The problem is the interpretation of the evidences by the scientific community. They start with an assumption that cannot in any way be proven and then build theories upon false assumptions.

Logic, like any other attribute is often abused, that does not mean logic is not a quality of God. Love is a quality of God as well that man habitually perverts, does this mean that God is not love?

You are talking about the field of physics. Everything we regard as "laws of nature" falls is some area of physics. These "laws of nature," which I prefer to regard as sets of determined relations because they can be suspended and overturned by the will of God, are put into place by the Creator. I am not sure we could call math and science an attribute of God. I would suggest rather that both are a product of God.
This is the problem with logic, and why logic is not bedrock.

An argument can be invalid even if its conclusion is TRUE and an argument can be valid even if its conclusion is FALSE.

 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
And all of those could have been created by God when He started the creation process.... just difficult to grasp in our limited finite minds I think.

Math, science etc.., may not have existed until God created them...... only God can create.

We really have no way of knowing think.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Perhaps you can provide an example of something that is logical but not true?

If logic is an attribute of God are math and science also an attribute?
I wouldn't call logic and math attributes of God; rather, I'd say that they are consistent with and necessary because of God's nature. Both math and logic are fundamental realms of knowledge that are simply discovered.

Science belongs in a different category, as it is the set of principles and processes that are used to discover what is true about the created universe. However, science is based on math and logic. Science in turn may be used to discover mathematical and logical truths.[/QUOTE]

See above post ^^^^
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,887
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My position would be that the word of God is bedrock. Logic may be used to evaluate the word of God (for instance, critical reasoning) but it is not bedrock. The word of God is. I do not trust my reasoning as I know that my mind can deceive me (Jer 17:9).

In fact, my conversion involved coming to the point where I realized this fact. Our own minds deceive us. However, the Holy Spirit is able to reveal this to us, and show our self-deception, if we are praying for his leading.

At the same time, though, I don't buy into the weird, charismatic/Pentecostal claims that we should abandon all reasoning (and some would claim the word of God) for weird, self-revelations devoid of any element of reasoning. Unfortunately, this is what some of this group does. Due to influences like Charles Finney, there is an element of contempt within this world for Christian academic pursuits. The fruit of this is evident in various groups like Bethel.

Thinking Through Things:

The EXISTENCE of logic is not the same thing as our USE of logic.

And neither the existence of logic, nor our use of logic, are things we have any ability to turn on and off.


Let's think about this a little more...



Rethinking Logic:

If God had not imparted logical reasoning to us (as part of the image of God) we would not be able to read God's word.

Without logical reasoning, we could neither read nor speak.

I'm not talking about a formal study of Aristotelian logic.
I'm not talking about complex principles of logic organized into any particular system.
I'm talking about logic at it's most foundational level within humans... it is what gives us the ability to think.

Logical reasoning is simply the way our minds operate.
We cannot think or reason, at all, without engaging logical reasoning... as God made us to do.
It is like the operating system of our minds.

Without logical reasoning, we literally cannot distinguish one thing from another.

Logical reasoning is what lets us distinguish things.
Logic is what allows us to tell a snow cone from a snowmobile, or a tennis shoe from a T-bone.
Without logical reasoning, we cannot distinguish things from each other.

Without logical reasoning:
- We cannot read a single word.
- We cannot tell one letter from another.
- We cannot talk
- We cannot even walk across the room.

We can't function, at all, without engaging the logical reasoning God put within us.


Ability to Think:

I'm not suggesting we should ever put OUR THOUGHTS above GOD'S THOUGHTS.
But I'm not talking about any PARTICULAR thoughts at all.
Logical Reasoning is not what gives us a particular thought, it it what gives us the ABILITY to think.

How we Read Scripture:
We start with our thinking ability (which God has given us) and then we apply that natural thinking ability to the scripture, and then we allow the Holy Spirit to illluminate our minds to spiritual things.

We cannot learn God's word without all 3 things:
1. GODS WORD:
We need to have the word to read, before we can read it.
2. THE HOLY SPIRIT: We need the Holy Spirit to illumininate our minds to spiritual things
3. OUR MINDS: we can't read without using our minds, and our mind uses logical reasoning as a sort of operating system.

So if we look at the above 3 pieces, we can see that our logical reasoning is a natural and necessary piece of the system.



Controversy.

The only reason that "logic" could be considered bad, or controversial, is that people in our age are never taught much about it.


a. Logic is part of God's divine nature. (This is not controversial, and it's easily proven.)
b. God imparted an understanding of logic to us, when he gave us the image of God. (We need logical reasoning to think, we cannot think without it.)
c. Aristotle sort of "discovered" a lot ABOUT logic a very long time ago... but Aristotle didn't invent logic, just as Newton didn't invent gravity.
d. Since humans are rebellious, they tend to use ALL GIFTS OF GOD FOR EVIL AT TIMES... and logic would be one of these gifts.

e. Like any other gift of God, logic (rational thinking) can be used for good or evil.
f. Since logic (rational thinking) is a gift of God, He expects us to use it, and use it for good... just like his other gifts.



Rather than having sudden, knee-jerk reactions to things, we, as Christians, would all do well to think through things with some time and care.

.
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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DISCLAIMER NOTICE: Much of the idea is pulled from a article by Tim Stratton. I will just shorten to a conclusion.

There are three fundamental Laws of Logic that are always required in a rational interaction:

The Law of Identity

The Law of Non-Contradiction

The Law of Excluded Middle (is either true or false. )

So how does this correlate with God?

Christian theism makes this reality even stronger.

He explains,

" John 1:1 states, “In the beginning was the Logos.” The Greek word “logos” is used synonymously with Jesus in the text. What is interesting is that logos in Greek means “the principle of reason.” This is where we get the term “logic.” The Bible is clear that Jesus is God and suggests that he is the ground of logic itself. This makes perfect sense as to why the immaterial laws of logic impose themselves on the material world. God created the material world according to the logical laws he had in mind or that are grounded in his essence and nature. This explains why these abstract laws of logic impose themselves upon the material world.

Just as computers function correctly when programmed to work according to the laws of logic, humans behave correctly (in an objective sense) when approximating to “The Logos.” When humans freely choose to think and behave logically, we simultaneously think and behave in a godly manner. Isaiah seems to agree: “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord…” (Isaiah 1:18).

Source:

https://crossexamined.org/logic-is-bedrock/
Your THINKING is totally flawed. You are not the first to try and explain how you mind works when exposed to Gods word.
If you think we settle into some logical coma that makes perfect sense try reading the book of Jermiah.
In the mean time tell me about what spiritual growth you have achieved through the trials in your life.
These trials are what offer the opportunity to increase your faith.
Start talking about what has happened in your life that has brought you to your knees before God.

And yes you are the person who tied me to the steak as a witch and burned me.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,573
10,321
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Your THINKING is totally flawed. You are not the first to try and explain how you mind works when exposed to Gods word.
If you think we settle into some logical coma that makes perfect sense try reading the book of Jermiah.
In the mean time tell me about what spiritual growth you have achieved through the trials in your life.
These trials are what offer the opportunity to increase your faith.
Start talking about what has happened in your life that has brought you to your knees before God.

And yes you are the person who tied me to the steak as a witch and burned me.
What does any of this have to do with logic? Nothing. You're just ranting, and demonstrating some poor spelling while doing so.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
My position would be that the word of God is bedrock. Logic may be used to evaluate the word of God (for instance, critical reasoning) but it is not bedrock. The word of God is. I do not trust my reasoning as I know that my mind can deceive me (Jer 17:9).

In fact, my conversion involved coming to the point where I realized this fact. Our own minds deceive us. However, the Holy Spirit is able to reveal this to us, and show our self-deception, if we are praying for his leading.

At the same time, though, I don't buy into the weird, charismatic/Pentecostal claims that we should abandon all reasoning (and some would claim the word of God) for weird, self-revelations devoid of any element of reasoning. Unfortunately, this is what some of this group does. Due to influences like Charles Finney, there is an element of contempt within this world for Christian academic pursuits. The fruit of this is evident in various groups like Bethel.

what is it with you and Pentecostals? who on earth said anything about Pentecostals EXCEPT YOU?

it appears you have something against them. maybe get that straightened out between you and God

I have never heard, read or seen posted in this forum or any other forum, that Pentecostals believe we should abandon all reasoning

and no, I am not Pentecostal but I prefer truth to obvious exaggeration and actual lies

the Bible is not God

you do realize, hopefully, that God used human beings to write the book but the Holy Spirit is with us now, not to rewrite the Bible, but to lead us into all truth

at least that is what the Bible states one of His reasons for being here is

your particuilar experience is NOT, repeat, NOT, the biblical experience I see in scripture

renew your mind with the word. that will keep you from deception...or at least get you pointed in the right direction
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Your THINKING is totally flawed. You are not the first to try and explain how you mind works when exposed to Gods word.
If you think we settle into some logical coma that makes perfect sense try reading the book of Jermiah.
In the mean time tell me about what spiritual growth you have achieved through the trials in your life.
These trials are what offer the opportunity to increase your faith.
Start talking about what has happened in your life that has brought you to your knees before God.

And yes you are the person who tied me to the steak as a witch and burned me.

maybe tell us when you achieved PERFECTION

not your position in Christ, but your own personal PERFECTION

we are waiting for the revealing of your superior intellect and obvious total knowledge :whistle: :sleep:
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
222
63
28
What does any of this have to do with logic? Nothing. You're just ranting, and demonstrating some poor spelling while doing so.
Poor spelling is a burden I must bare. God always has a way to keep me in submission. Humility is one of the greatest gifts.
I have always been brought before the council for judgment. if it where not for the grace of God I surely would have been cast aside long ago.
Your insistence on trying to justify logic into this equation shall be your reward. The good news is you still have time to repent.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,573
10,321
113
Poor spelling is a burden I must bare. God always has a way to keep me in submission. Humility is one of the greatest gifts.
I have always been brought before the council for judgment. if it where not for the grace of God I surely would have been cast aside long ago.
Your insistence on trying to justify logic into this equation shall be your reward. The good news is you still have time to repent.
Have you read my posts in this thread? Do you have even a shred of a clue as to what logic is? Your comments suggest otherwise.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,698
3,289
113
Your THINKING is totally flawed. You are not the first to try and explain how you mind works when exposed to Gods word.
If you think we settle into some logical coma that makes perfect sense try reading the book of Jermiah.
In the mean time tell me about what spiritual growth you have achieved through the trials in your life.
These trials are what offer the opportunity to increase your faith.
Start talking about what has happened in your life that has brought you to your knees before God.

And yes you are the person who tied me to the steak as a witch and burned me.
It is obvious you are speaking from ignorance about this subject. My point has been made clear. If anyone is reading anything else into this then I conclude it can either be out of ignorance or hate.
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
222
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For a person to be qualified to speak on logic versus faith they must have first experienced a test of their faith.
Here you have a father or mother with a child diagnosed with an illness to which medicine has no answer.
At this point the father and mother have a choice. They can choose hopelessness or they can choose to believe there is a power greater than the illness which hols their child.
Now here in is the power of faith. Because the father and mother choose to believe God for a miracle they have entered into a place of greater faith. This does not mean that the child was healed however it means the father and mother are now in the hands of God. God now has them in a place where he has their full attention. Did God allow this child to become ill in order to bring the father and mother into a place where the door is only provided through desperation. Here they have a view of God that only is provided through desperation. Now instead of God bringing this child to Himself He also has brought the father and mother as well.
Would God do such a thing? Yes God would . The scripture tells us that "precious in the eyes of the Lord are the death of the saints".
Always remember that children belong to God Himself. He knows each and every one. You can bring harm to me simply because you do not like me. God will tell me to suck it up My faith is sufficient for thee. But if you harm one of these little ones you will suffer the wrath of God in ways you cant imagine. Each one has their own angle and the eyes of that angle are always upon God Himself.
maybe tell us when you achieved PERFECTION

not your position in Christ, but your own personal PERFECTION

we are waiting for the revealing of your superior intellect and obvious total knowledge :whistle::sleep:

PERFECTION was never used to describe myself. Perfection is used to describe my wife who died some years back.
She always had a quick and ready answer for anyone who would listen " Jesus is the answer".
She had a gift of being able to lay hands on anyone and in doing so you could see all of their anxiety just melt away.
She struggled with cancer for three years and in those three yeas her greatest joy was praying for others.
Perfect before God is what she was and is to me and God honers that.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,383
587
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logic and common sense led to run from Christian Science while I was in Jr High.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
37,880
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Always remember that children belong to God Himself. He knows each and every one. You can bring harm to me simply because you do not like me. God will tell me to suck it up My faith is sufficient for thee. But if you harm one of these little ones you will suffer the wrath of God in ways you cant imagine. Each one has their own angle and the eyes of that angle are always upon God Himself.


Matthew 18:3-6 :)
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
For a person to be qualified to speak on logic versus faith they must have first experienced a test of their faith.
Here you have a father or mother with a child diagnosed with an illness to which medicine has no answer.
At this point the father and mother have a choice. They can choose hopelessness or they can choose to believe there is a power greater than the illness which hols their child.
Now here in is the power of faith. Because the father and mother choose to believe God for a miracle they have entered into a place of greater faith. This does not mean that the child was healed however it means the father and mother are now in the hands of God. God now has them in a place where he has their full attention. Did God allow this child to become ill in order to bring the father and mother into a place where the door is only provided through desperation. Here they have a view of God that only is provided through desperation. Now instead of God bringing this child to Himself He also has brought the father and mother as well.
Would God do such a thing? Yes God would . The scripture tells us that "precious in the eyes of the Lord are the death of the saints".
Always remember that children belong to God Himself. He knows each and every one. You can bring harm to me simply because you do not like me. God will tell me to suck it up My faith is sufficient for thee. But if you harm one of these little ones you will suffer the wrath of God in ways you cant imagine. Each one has their own angle and the eyes of that angle are always upon God Himself.
you do have a gift for trying to create a reason for a person who did not say what you say they did, to get on the defensive

but instread, let's take a closer look at your manipulating what I said and you changing what you said

here we go :giggle:

here is what you posted and what I responded to:

Your THINKING is totally flawed. You are not the first to try and explain how you mind works when exposed to Gods word.
If you think we settle into some logical coma that makes perfect sense try reading the book of Jermiah.
In the mean time tell me about what spiritual growth you have achieved through the trials in your life.
These trials are what offer the opportunity to increase your faith.
Start talking about what has happened in your life that has brought you to your knees before God.


And yes you are the person who tied me to the steak as a witch and burned me.

that was actually a post to the op, but since I agree with the op, I responded...this is an open forum and anyone can respond

you do not address what was posted in the op, instead you create an ad hominem attack, which in case you do not know, is an attack upon the PERSON rather than the subject. you tell the op his thinking is flawed, accuse him of things he never said...you create an entire personal attack and then you create criteria that God Himself does not say we need to prove anything and end your post with an obscure reference to being burned at the stake

so I wrote what I did because I consider what you posted immature and unreasonable as you attack a poster rather than address the fact you obviously disagree with the position reflected in the op. are you not able to illustrate why you disagree or, do you usually simply attack people because that is what you do?

frankly I do not care about your little story of faith you have above which appears to be fiction. this thread is not about that. I can give my own TRUE stories regarding faith and even lack of faith and the faithfulness of God

you are simply bloviating and hoping no one will notice

further you are in no place to now try to teach scritpure since you have already shown you are good at attacking as your first go to

you mention being qualified. you have not shown any indication of being qualified as you do not give any sort of response that indicates you understand what is being discussed here

I don't believe, at this moment, that I will respond to you again because you do not address the op and simply create a response to take the topic off line
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,573
10,321
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For a person to be qualified to speak on logic versus faith they must have first experienced a test of their faith.
When did this become a discussion about logic VERSUS faith?

Where in Scripture is your assertion stated?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Perhaps you can provide an example of something that is logical but not true?

If logic is an attribute of God are math and science also an attribute?

logical but not true
I am not really sure what you mean, but there are times when the premise is true but the conclusion is false.
Discrete Mathematics can show this..... and @posthuman can check it if he likes ;)

  • If I did all the suggested exercises, then I got an A+
  • I got an A+
  • Therefore, I did all of the suggested exercises.
s denote >> "I did all of the suggested exercises" and a denote >>>> "I got an A+."
The premises are therefore sa and a and the conclusion is c.
To show this argument is invalid, we find truth values to make all of the premises true, but the conclusion false.
If we set s=F and a=T, we have saFTT and aT, and so the premises are true.

However, the conclusion is sF so the conclusion is invalid.

(credit Carleton U)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
18,573
10,321
113
I am not really sure what you mean, but there are times when the premise is true but the conclusion is false.
Discrete Mathematics can show this..... and @posthuman can check it if he likes ;)

  • If I did all the suggested exercises, then I got an A+
  • I got an A+
  • Therefore, I did all of the suggested exercises.
s denote >> "I did all of the suggested exercises" and a denote >>>> "I got an A+."
The premises are therefore sa and a and the conclusion is c.
To show this argument is invalid, we find truth values to make all of the premises true, but the conclusion false.
If we set s=F and a=T, we have saFTT and aT, and so the premises are true.

However, the conclusion is sF so the conclusion is invalid.

(credit Carleton U)
You made this statement previously: "What is logical is not always true. " I asked you for examples. That's what I mean.

The sample syllogism you provided contains a logical fallacy; therefore, it doesn't qualify as something that is logical but not true. :)