LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#61
Logic, at the most fundamental level, flows from being, and being has no contingency upon human reasoning or even human existence.

Logic exists even if all humans disappear tomorrow.

We would all agree that God cannot lie or contradict himself.
When we say that God cannot contradict himself, we are asserting, without realizing it, that logic is an inherent part of God's nature.


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I am not denying that at all. We have been endowed by the Creator with a mind that reasons in a logical way. The point I was trying to make is that the human use of logic is limited. Logic can never tell us all the truth about the natural world and it most certainly cannot be a reliable tool for determining truth from scripture.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
81
21
8
#62
Would you agree that logic is the product of deduction based on the observable regularities of natural processes?
Actually time is the product of observable regularities of the natural processes. See Eccl. 3:1-2. Logic is the application of principles in the discernment of the reality of life.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,198
5,609
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#63
I am not denying that at all. We have been endowed by the Creator with a mind that reasons in a logical way. The point I was trying to make is that the human use of logic is limited. Logic can never tell us all the truth about the natural world and it most certainly cannot be a reliable tool for determining truth from scripture.
Why do you claim that (in bold)? What are the reliable tools, in your view?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,546
3,204
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#64
Logic can never tell us all the truth about the natural world and it most certainly cannot be a reliable tool for determining truth from scripture.
And that's why this thread is illogical.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
81
21
8
#65
We would all agree that God cannot lie or contradict himself.
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Depends upon whose God we are talking about, if your God has told you that all things are possible with him then if he told you that it is impossible for him to lie then that sounds like a contradiction, but that is just my opinion. No need to explain since Ezek 14:9 is explanation enough, or at least in my opinion.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
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#66
I am not denying that at all. We have been endowed by the Creator with a mind that reasons in a logical way. The point I was trying to make is that the human use of logic is limited. Logic can never tell us all the truth about the natural world and it most certainly cannot be a reliable tool for determining truth from scripture.
Logic & Mind


Mind & The Fall:

Agreed.
Although logic is an intrinsic part of God's nature, and thus has no flaws, humans certainly fall short in our ability to apply it.

The human use of logic is limited, because we are both finite and fallen... we are incapable of understanding logic perfectly.
We are broken.

But we needn't minimize the value of logic; it's best, I think, if we recognize it as what it is - a supernatural gift directly from God, and part of the imago dei.
(The lost world, lifted up in pride, doesn't recognize this - but we can. We can recognize it as a wonderful gift from God.)

Our human mind is extremely wonderful and necessary: we need it to comprehend God, to comprehend the world he's placed us in, to communicate with him, to serve him, to server the brethren. Even though our reasoning is imperfect because of the fall, it is still part of the imago dei... and it is a great gift from God.


Misunderstanding:
And if someone is reading this and misunderstanding; I am not talking about thinking in some particular way, or with some particular method.
I am literally talking about the ability to think at all.
Without logic we would be unable to think at all.
We quite literally could not distinguish one thing from another.
We wouldn't be able to read even one word, or speak one word.
We couldn't distinguish a bowling ball from a shopping mall.
We would literally have no rational ability whatsoever.
We wouldn't be able to think.
I couldn't even reach up and find my own head.
:)

That might not be much of a loss, lol.


Spirit & Mind Together:
To discern scripture, of course we also need the spirit to illuminate our minds, and guide us.
We need a rational mind, and we need the Holy Spirit... we must have both.
Both of these are gifts from God, and we need them both.

The lost world scoffs at the Holy Spirit, and it claims the rational mind as it's own invention!
Both of these views are blasphemy.
The Christian should not share any of these thoughts.
The Holy Spirit, and the rational mind, are both gifts from our creator.
They both come directly from God.

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,871
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#67
Depends upon whose God we are talking about, if your God has told you that all things are possible with him then if he told you that it is impossible for him to lie then that sounds like a contradiction, but that is just my opinion. No need to explain since Ezek 14:9 is explanation enough, or at least in my opinion.

That is a common misconception usually raised by atheists who don't understand Christian beliefs.

The problem is that both biblically, and traditionally, the christian faith has NEVER asserted that God can do ANYTHING.
The christian faith has always asserted that God is limited by his own nature.
God cannot do that which is against his nature, and God cannot do that which is logically impossible.

This has always been the traditional belief of the Christian faith.
This is what we find in scripture if we examine scripture carefully, and if we don't simply yank verses out of context.

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UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
81
21
8
#68
That is a common misconception usually raised by atheists who don't understand Christian beliefs.
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My bad, I didn't know you were an atheist.

But it is written that the Angel that told Mary about the birth of Jesus said, "For with God nothing shall be impossible."
See Luke 1:37

It is written Jesus himself said, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Matt 19:26

But like I said no explanation needed.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,871
113
#69
My bad, I didn't know you were an atheist.

But it is written that the Angel that told Mary about the birth of Jesus said, "For with God nothing shall be impossible."
See Luke 1:37

It is written Jesus himself said, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Matt 19:26

But like I said no explanation needed.
This is a Common Atheist Attack

This is a misunderstanding of scripture; a misunderstanding used by atheists to ATTACK Christianity.

It's best for Christians to understand what these passage genuinely mean.

If you line those verses up with THE REST OF THE BIBLE, you'll find that there ARE things which are impossible for God. God cannot lie, and he cannot do anything which is against his own nature. Therefore, the phrase "nothing is impossible" does not mean God is without limitations of any kind.

What are some things we know, from scripture, that God cannot do?
- We know that God cannot lie.
- We know God cannot sin.
- We know God cannot die.

Those are limitations of his own nature.
So when scripture says "all things are possible with God", does that mean God can sin, or lie, or drop dead?
No.
These are not things God can do, because they are against his own nature.

We need to compare verses with the REST OF THE BIBLE.

If we fail to compare verses with the rest of the bible, we end up with errors.

.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,059
608
113
#70
Well, we'll start with this and see where it goes.

Logic is really nothing more than a human reasoning toward observable regularities experienced in the natural world. For example, I know that every time I throw a rock in the air, it will inevitably come down. I know this because every time I have thrown a rock in the air, that has always been the result. I can, therefore, reason toward a logical conclusion based this statistical regularity.

The bible, however, was not written to appeal to human logic or reason, it was written to appeal to faith, and it does this on almost every page. Logic is rooted in and limited to what we can experiences with the five senses. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see. Scripture would have us look beyond the limitations of logic and embrace a reality that is beyond all human comprehension. The world would call this irrationality, but scripture calls it faith.

Scripture is replete with examples of the “irrational.” It is not rational or logical to believe that three men can be thrown into a furnace of fire for an extended period and emerge unharmed and with not even so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes, Daniel 3:24-27. It is patently absurd to believe that the earth can suddenly and instantaneously cease its rotational pattern for several hours without dramatically disturbing gravitational forces, Joshua 10:12-14. There is nothing in our experience within the field of human biology to suggest that a virgin can conceive a child or that someone who had been dead and entombed for four days can be raised simply by verbal command to rejoin the living. All of these examples are certainly inconsistent with our experience in observable regularities. These things cannot be rationalized based upon a logical appeal to natural processes. What these things serve to demonstrate is that God is not constrained by natural process, nor is the universe governed by such.
I agree with much of your post except your belief that

Logic is really nothing more than a human reasoning toward observable regularities experienced in the natural world.
Immaterial laws come from God. Just as the moral law has a judge the laws of nature have a designer and sustains them. We have two options. To think logically or illogically.

You are thinking of the word logic as not how the OP defined it.

The world thinks they can be logical without God but God calls that foolish thinking.

Observable regularities has nothing to do with laws of logic. Maybe laws of physics but not logic. You cannot observe logic.

Proverbs 4:5-9 New International Version (NIV)
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or turn away from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will give you a garland to grace your head
and present you with a glorious crown.”

Wisdom is the knowledge of knowing what to do right. Wisdom comes from God also.

Understanding or Knowledge:
information gained through experience, reasoning, or acquaintance

Reasoning is a logical, thoughtful way of thinking.

logic: a particular way of thinking, especially one that is reasonable and based on good judgment:

Proverbs 2:6-8 also says from the Lords mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 2:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So therefore if understanding is given through God and this information is gained through reasoning and reasoning depends on logic.

And logic which depends on wisdom to think in good judgment and reason. Then indeed logic is of God.

But your also forgetting God doesn't just speak through scripture but also natural revelation.

So yes in faith we do respond to either God's natural or supernatural revelations in faith. And to gain a understanding we equally or using the laws of logic that only come from God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,059
608
113
#71
Logic, at the most fundamental level, flows from being, and being has no contingency upon human reasoning or even human existence.

Logic exists even if all humans disappear tomorrow.

We would all agree that God cannot lie or contradict himself.
When we say that God cannot contradict himself, we are asserting, without realizing it, that logic is an inherent part of God's nature.


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Bingo
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,059
608
113
#72
This is a Common Atheist Attack

This is a misunderstanding of scripture; a misunderstanding used by atheists to ATTACK Christianity.

It's best for Christians to understand what these passage genuinely mean.

If you line those verses up with THE REST OF THE BIBLE, you'll find that there ARE things which are impossible for God. God cannot lie, and he cannot do anything which is against his own nature. Therefore, the phrase "nothing is impossible" does not mean God is without limitations of any kind.

What are some things we know, from scripture, that God cannot do?
- We know that God cannot lie.
- We know God cannot sin.
- We know God cannot die.

Those are limitations of his own nature.
So when scripture says "all things are possible with God", does that mean God can sin, or lie, or drop dead?
No.
These are not things God can do, because they are against his own nature.

We need to compare verses with the REST OF THE BIBLE.

If we fail to compare verses with the rest of the bible, we end up with errors.

.
Sounds like God is a good example of the laws of logic. Law of noncontradiction.
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
275
120
43
#73
Hey Rough Soul, how are you doing? I think your posts are really interesting by the way...

Strange how in just fifty or sixty years, the “languages have been confused” like Babylon isn't it? Even the word “democracy” and “logic” have been twisted. People will justify Atheism by their “own” logic. Just like they use the word “good” or “love” or “right” and “wrong” when they hold different standards to start with.

I have sat with many “atheists” who use the word “logic” to justify their own beliefs (or lack of) yet they do not even justify themselves by their own logic sometimes. They almost prove God observing them sometimes.

Believing in “nothing” is not a belief. But Atheism has almost become a religion now where it was not before, especially in England. How come?

They even had buses going around saying “There is no God” so promoting it. It's almost like someone is pushing this and actually promoting it. I have no idea about how the "New Atheists" in the USA or the rest of the world behave, but as Peter Hitchens wrote in his book “Rage at God” these “New Atheists” can be in a rage about people who believe in God and can actually attack those who believe in God like they are almost spitting in your face and they most certainly never used to?

Why do they care? Why are they trying to “sell” us something? When they didn't used to care one way or the other. What are they so angry about?

When a certain “book” came out in England as a best seller to disprove God, the writer said that the God of the OT was an angry jealous God. But hey, hang on a minute…..Is someone saying that they don't like the character of God? I thought they didn't believe there WAS a God - so how come someone who doesn't exist in the first place HAS a character at all then? Logical? It's like saying the cartoon Tom and Jerry is too violent so it doesn't exist.

This is a strange thing and surely raises red flags. It has become like the "New Atheist" and especially the ones who “protest too much” are trying to sell us something. Why? What do they care what people believe? They can believe what they like - no one is making them believe in God they have free will and free choice, as believers do. You would think they would spend their time promoting other things that they DO care about. But many young people will follow the crowd and will be led not to believe in God at all, listening to their “logic”.

Why have “Atheists” attitude changed over the years?

I grew up in the 60s in England. Being an “Atheist” then was really not pushed or regarded as anything other than people who showed no interest in believing in God whatsoever, or they called themselves “humanists”. They showed absolutely showed no interest in any conversation about God, didn't care one way or the other and nothing was promoted in their lack of belief or otherwise. They just never talked about it because it wasn't their “thing”. I don't remember any I knew growing up that actually got “angry” about it. They just simply didn't care less.

They were inoffensive, not interactive, not “promoting” their view of no belief, in fact they almost just “walked away” from any conversation about God like “yeah whatever” finding it boring and pointless. To them it was as dumb as debating whether you should believe in Donald Duck as a real person, so there was absolutely no point in discussing it.

But NOW. Boy how things have changed! Now some “New Atheists” are actually trying to sell something. They protest SO much, are SO angry that others believe in God that they are almost showing God to be true just by themselves. Why? I saw one person on YouTube who was actually promoting that Atheists deride and ridicule God believers because they DESERVE it.

They are almost shaking their fist at the sky and cannot see themselves, otherwise they wouldn't care less as they should have NO INTEREST in debating if there is a God like back in the 60s. I have no interest in rugby for instance, so I find it boring when people talk about it. I am not going to get into a conversation about rugby as it doesn't interest me. I don't stand there saying “stop liking Rugby” or write books or promote that "you shouldn't like rugby!" That's just silly isn't it...

At the very least, I see these “New Atheists” as gamblers. They gamble with their souls. For even if they are Philosophers, then they should pay attention to “logic and reason” of their own beliefs.

For instance, Voltaire the philosopher once said after much consideration.

“It is better to believe in God. Because if there IS one, you”re alright.
And if there ISN'T one, it doesn't matter anyway”.

Even that is “logical”

Peter Hitchens is a well known foreign correspondent and journalist in England, now a born again Christian and a writer. He is the brother of Christoper Hitchens who wrote books about Atheism who spoke a lot publically about it before he died. They disagreed a lot. Peter wrote “Rage at God” which demonstrates that some of these “New Atheists” are actually just “angry at God”. Maybe not all - but some.

I heard a Preacher in England say once, that there is a correspondence on Earth with believers and non believers in how an individual sees his or her own father on earth.

If he or she hates his father on earth then he usually hates God the Father. When he starts making up or has understand or peace with his father on earth, then he sees God the Father. Or if he has never known his father at all, he may start off an Atheist but realise that he had a Father after all when he realises God is his Father as it is a correspondence. A bit like the Prodigal Son as well.

I don't know if this is true or not (Stalin is said to have hated his father). But I know one Atheist person I was sitting with talking one day about why he believed there was no God, and when I said to him about this correspondence on earth about how you view your own father, he answered

“But I never knew my father?” He had a strange look on his face after that and I really wonder what truth there is in this. Who knows? God knows.
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
275
120
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#74
Well, we'll start with this and see where it goes.

Logic is really nothing more than a human reasoning toward observable regularities experienced in the natural world. For example, I know that every time I throw a rock in the air, it will inevitably come down. I know this because every time I have thrown a rock in the air, that has always been the result. I can, therefore, reason toward a logical conclusion based this statistical regularity.

The bible, however, was not written to appeal to human logic or reason, it was written to appeal to faith, and it does this on almost every page. Logic is rooted in and limited to what we can experiences with the five senses. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see. Scripture would have us look beyond the limitations of logic and embrace a reality that is beyond all human comprehension. The world would call this irrationality, but scripture calls it faith.

Scripture is replete with examples of the “irrational.” It is not rational or logical to believe that three men can be thrown into a furnace of fire for an extended period and emerge unharmed and with not even so much as the smell of smoke on their clothes, Daniel 3:24-27. It is patently absurd to believe that the earth can suddenly and instantaneously cease its rotational pattern for several hours without dramatically disturbing gravitational forces, Joshua 10:12-14. There is nothing in our experience within the field of human biology to suggest that a virgin can conceive a child or that someone who had been dead and entombed for four days can be raised simply by verbal command to rejoin the living. All of these examples are certainly inconsistent with our experience in observable regularities. These things cannot be rationalized based upon a logical appeal to natural processes. What these things serve to demonstrate is that God is not constrained by natural process, nor is the universe governed by such.
I totally get what you are saying. Maybe then there is God Logic and Man Logic. God can do the impossible but Man sees things that are impossible as illogical. On the other hand, reading parables can show us man logic like we are looking from a camera view down. But within ourselves, all men behave illogically sometimes so human logic must go out the window, or the world would all see this one logic and at least agree.
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
275
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#75
Sounds like God is a good example of the laws of logic. Law of noncontradiction.
What do you say to someone who points out God can get others to lie? They could argue back how come he gets another to do what goes against his own nature? What do we say in reply?

God sends a lying spirit (1 Kings 22:22) - “And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'"
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,754
409
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#76
I totally get what you are saying. Maybe then there is God Logic and Man Logic. God can do the impossible but Man sees things that are impossible as illogical. On the other hand, reading parables can show us man logic like we are looking from a camera view down. But within ourselves, all men behave illogically sometimes so human logic must go out the window, or the world would all see this one logic and at least agree.
That is precisely the point; Just consider the miracles. There is no way one can explain the miracles logically. One simply cannot explain a non-natural occurrence by appealing to natural processes. Have you ever heard someone attempt to explain away the 10 plagues as naturally occurring phenomenon? I simply does not work.
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
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#77
That is precisely the point; Just consider the miracles. There is no way one can explain the miracles logically. One simply cannot explain a non-natural occurrence by appealing to natural processes. Have you ever heard someone attempt to explain away the 10 plagues as naturally occurring phenomenon? I simply does not work.
Yes so true. Science also has to even think up a "word" or "term" for things they don't see as logical as no one understands anything unless it has a name. So they say its the "uncertainty principle" or "phenomenon". Or because it goes beyond logic of what is naturally logic to a mans understanding they might say "supernatural"!
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,754
409
83
65
Texas
#78
Actually time is the product of observable regularities of the natural processes. See Eccl. 3:1-2. Logic is the application of principles in the discernment of the reality of life.
Interesting take. I am not sure we could say that Ecc 3 is presenting time as a product of these events. These events occur in time but are not causal of time. Time, like everything else, is a product of God and like everything else in the universe, time responds to the will of God.

Do you think it is possible for our observations of the natural world to tell us all the truth about reality?
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
275
120
43
#79
Interesting take. I am not sure we could say that Ecc 3 is presenting time as a product of these events. These events occur in time but are not causal of time. Time, like everything else, is a product of God and like everything else in the universe, time responds to the will of God.

Do you think it is possible for our observations of the natural world to tell us all the truth about reality?
I think we are too insignificant and our view is tiny - we cannot see all things even collectively the same (humans cannot even agree on most things. Which is why you get different "eye witness accounts" of what should be the same thing.

We are too small in this vast universe and our eyes don't see very far. Like an ant that cannot see the boot coming.

I cannot even see my phone texts half the time which is right in front of my face, yet the moon I can see just fine which is 238,855 miles away. How is THAT possible. It defies logic.

Such things I ponder!
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,754
409
83
65
Texas
#80
I agree with much of your post except your belief that



Immaterial laws come from God. Just as the moral law has a judge the laws of nature have a designer and sustains them. We have two options. To think logically or illogically.

You are thinking of the word logic as not how the OP defined it.

The world thinks they can be logical without God but God calls that foolish thinking.

Observable regularities has nothing to do with laws of logic. Maybe laws of physics but not logic. You cannot observe logic.

Proverbs 4:5-9 New International Version (NIV)
5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or turn away from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Cherish her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will give you a garland to grace your head
and present you with a glorious crown.”

Wisdom is the knowledge of knowing what to do right. Wisdom comes from God also.

Understanding or Knowledge:
information gained through experience, reasoning, or acquaintance

Reasoning is a logical, thoughtful way of thinking.

logic: a particular way of thinking, especially one that is reasonable and based on good judgment:

Proverbs 2:6-8 also says from the Lords mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 2:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So therefore if understanding is given through God and this information is gained through reasoning and reasoning depends on logic.

And logic which depends on wisdom to think in good judgment and reason. Then indeed logic is of God.

But your also forgetting God doesn't just speak through scripture but also natural revelation.

So yes in faith we do respond to either God's natural or supernatural revelations in faith. And to gain a understanding we equally or using the laws of logic that only come from God.
I think perhaps you and I are looking at logic from two different vantage points. What you are describing is not what I would regard as logic but something that goes beyond logic. I suppose we could call this superior logic. We have to admit that God is the supreme logical mind and logic is a quality we have been allowed to share with the Creator. How the world uses logical deduction based the observation of material evidences as a tool to discredit scripture certainly demonstrates the fact that logic that is divorced from revelation in foolishness. Yet, this is what the world calls wisdom.