Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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OIC1965

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It did happen. The purpose for all those who would be in him would be predestined to glorification. This being ' in him ' is one of the mysteries revealed to Paul.
You don’t believe God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Paul said it happened before the foundation of the world

You say it happens at conversion

That’s a contradiction. Who should I believe?
 

OIC1965

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This is your stumbling block . ' in the mind of God ' theory.
Paul and Peter both talk about foreknowledge. So it’s a stumbling block for you, not for me because you don’t believe or else don’t understand their writings

In addition, Paul lists foreknowledge and predestination before justification in Romans 8:28-30. If foreknowledge and predestination were based on the fact that we’re already justified, he would have reversed the order. It would have been called, justified, foreknown, predestined, glorified, which is your paradigm.
 

throughfaith

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We’ve already gone over the fact that the phrase “ in Him” in Ephesians 1:4 is not talking about our position before the foundation of the world. That was settled, what? Two or three weeks ago?

Let me say this again and hope you comprehend this time.

1. Since Ephesians 1:4 is talking about something that happened before time, it is clear that the phrase “ in Christ” is not talking about our position at that point.

2. Because we didn’t exist yet nor were we saved

3. But Paul uses the phrase “ in Christ” in other ways. For example, Ephesians 3:11

4. Therefore, to say that Ephesians 1:4 never happened because we were not in Christ before the foundation of the world is a fallacious argument.
Just ask yourself in light of Eph 2.11-12 when we're you in him ? It really is simple when you don't have ' in the mind of God ' clouding your mind . This is why 'predestined " and ' adoption ' gets messed up .
 

throughfaith

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You don’t believe God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Paul said it happened before the foundation of the world

You say it happens at conversion

That’s a contradiction. Who should I believe?
The receiving of these things only happens after we believe. a person without christ , without God , without hope and a stranger is not in any sense in him until he is in him. This is almost to silly to have to explain .
 

OIC1965

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Just ask yourself in light of Eph 2.11-12 when we're you in him ? It really is simple when you don't have ' in the mind of God ' clouding your mind . This is why 'predestined " and ' adoption ' gets messed up .
What does in Christ mean in Ephesians 3:11? To show you that “in Christ” has more than one usage.
 

OIC1965

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The receiving of these things only happens after we believe. a person without christ , without God , without hope and a stranger is not in any sense in him until he is in him. This is almost to silly to have to explain .
Where do you see the word “receive” in Ephesians 1:4-5? Where do you see any verb performed by us in those verses. We do nothing in these verses. It’s all God’s actions.
 

OIC1965

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The receiving of these things only happens after we believe. a person without christ , without God , without hope and a stranger is not in any sense in him until he is in him. This is almost to silly to have to explain .
How did we believe before the foundation of the world? Verse 4-5 are things that took place before the foundation of the world.
 

OIC1965

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Just ask yourself in light of Eph 2.11-12 when we're you in him ? It really is simple when you don't have ' in the mind of God ' clouding your mind . This is why 'predestined " and ' adoption ' gets messed up .
What does the question of “ when was I in Him” have to do with Ephesians 1:4-5. We have already established that we were not saved before time, so it is an irrelevant question.

A. We were not in Christ before we were born

B. Paul said the events in Ephesians 1:4-5 took place before the foundation of the world

C. Therefore, it follows that the phrase “ in Him” is not referring to us, but rather is saying something about the verb ( chose). See Ephesians 3:11 where the phrase in Christ is used also in reference to a verb rather than a noun in the same manner.

“Come on man”
 

throughfaith

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What does the question of “ when was I in Him” have to do with Ephesians 1:4-5. We have already established that we were not saved before time, so it is an irrelevant question.

A. We were not in Christ before we were born

B. Paul said the events in Ephesians 1:4-5 took place before the foundation of the world

C. Therefore, it follows that the phrase “ in Him” is not referring to us, but rather is saying something about the verb ( chose). See Ephesians 3:11 where the phrase in Christ is used also in reference to a verb rather than a noun in the same manner.

“Come on man”
So if your not saved before believed what is the point of this " in the mind of God ' theology? What does it do ?
 

throughfaith

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How did we believe before the foundation of the world? Verse 4-5 are things that took place before the foundation of the world.
Your basing everything on you being individually chosen TO BE saved , because God saw you would believe. In some sense this makes sense in Calvinism, because he determined everything that would take place because he determined everything. Not based on any thing he saw ahead of time ( in the mind of God theory ) But because he predestinated everything before the foundation in a absolute sense, down to every dust mote ( says John piper )
 

throughfaith

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What does in Christ mean in Ephesians 3:11? To show you that “in Christ” has more than one usage.
Its God choice of the church in Christ for heavenly blessings . It really is that simple . This makes perfect sense with the entire bible. Paul reveals the mysteries, such as ' in him ' . He also reveals all the blessings through ephesians of those that get in him .Your theory ( Calminian) is not in keeping with anything in Ephesians that Paul is writing about .
 

OIC1965

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Its God choice of the church in Christ for heavenly blessings . It really is that simple . This makes perfect sense with the entire bible. Paul reveals the mysteries, such as ' in him ' . He also reveals all the blessings through ephesians of those that get in him .Your theory ( Calminian) is not in keeping with anything in Ephesians that Paul is writing about .
So did you answer the question you replied to. And I’m not a Calminian.
 

throughfaith

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What does the question of “ when was I in Him” have to do with Ephesians 1:4-5. We have already established that we were not saved before time, so it is an irrelevant question.

A. We were not in Christ before we were born

B. Paul said the events in Ephesians 1:4-5 took place before the foundation of the world

C. Therefore, it follows that the phrase “ in Him” is not referring to us, but rather is saying something about the verb ( chose). See Ephesians 3:11 where the phrase in Christ is used also in reference to a verb rather than a noun in the same manner.

“Come on man”
If were not saved before we existed or chosen to be saved before we existed ,then what s the point of this doctrine?
 

OIC1965

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If were not saved before we existed or chosen to be saved before we existed ,then what s the point of this doctrine?
We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love, having been predestinated (aorist participle)unto the adoption of children...we were predestinated unto the adoption of sons when we were chosen in Him...which was before the foundation of the world.

We were also foreknow of God. And those God foreknows, He predestined. And those God predestines, He calls and those He calls, He justified, and those He justified, He glorifies

And we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God through the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Awesome stuff
 

throughfaith

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We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love, having been predestinated (aorist participle)unto the adoption of children...we were predestinated unto the adoption of sons when we were chosen in Him...which was before the foundation of the world.

We were also foreknow of God. And those God foreknows, He predestined. And those God predestines, He calls and those He calls, He justified, and those He justified, He glorifies

And we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God through the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus

Awesome stuff
So let's run with this doctrine then . So before you were born. Before your parents even conceived you , before Adam existed you were Chosen in him to be holy and blameless in love no less and you were also predestinated to the adoption ,which you think happens at conversion . Ignoring Rom 8.23 . So being Elected and predestinated before you existed im assuming then God Chose you to be saved and then to make sure you were ' adopted ' at conversion he also in love predestinated you to guarantee your 'arrival' in time. Welcome to Calvinism then .
 
Jan 12, 2019
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So you and TF have the general epistles having absolutely no relevance to Christians until the Last Days. You believe what you want, but I’m not buying it.
No one is saying there is no relevance to us, all scripture is profitable for our learning.

But just like the OT is relevant for us but we don't take our salvation doctrine from verses like Genesis 17:14, we don't take salvation doctrine from James, Peter and John, but God gave us the opportunity to learn from those letters, what Israel must undergo during the Tribulation.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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That's really doubling my confusion now. Those other two verses you're talking about and that verse 32 are beautiful? We in times past have not believed God but we obtained mercy through Israels unbelief? But isn't that verse 32 telling us the unbelief was something God consigned all people to? Isn't disobedience unbelief?
Now we've obtained mercy because God made all people not believe?
I really don't get this.

Other people are saved because Israel doesn't believe in Jesus? I thought Jesus came to save the whole world and those who believe in him. I didn't know there was a group that were saved because others didn't believe. We take their place ?
Did Jesus say this too? Maybe the Romans chapter is an opinion.Is this found elsewhere in the bible?

Help?
The original timetable set in the OT was that Israel the nation is to be saved first, then all Jews will be priests that will bring the entire world, the gentile nations to God, as stated in Zechariah 8. But there was another plan hidden in God since the beginning of time, which I will bring in later.

That original plan required Israel to repent and believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, which they rejected.

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Israel rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets, the last being John the Baptist (Luke 16:16, Acts 7:52).
Israel rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross (Acts 2:36)
Israel rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels. :)
 

laymen

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2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 

Infinite_Ark

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The original timetable set in the OT was that Israel the nation is to be saved first, then all Jews will be priests that will bring the entire world, the gentile nations to God, as stated in Zechariah 8. But there was another plan hidden in God since the beginning of time, which I will bring in later.

That original plan required Israel to repent and believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, which they rejected.

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Israel rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets, the last being John the Baptist (Luke 16:16, Acts 7:52).
Israel rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross (Acts 2:36)
Israel rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels. :)
That doesn't seem right. What about John 3:16? Isn't that verse a part of the gospels?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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That doesn't seem right. What about John 3:16? Isn't that verse a part of the gospels?
Yes, as I said, the world was to be saved thru Jesus Christ.

But you can understand that John 3:16 does not mean that Israel does not have the rights of first refusal to Jesus right?

Jesus himself told the Gentile lady who tried to seek him "ahead of time" in Mark 7:27, that the children, which refers to Jewish children are to be fed first, before the dogs, which was a term used by Israel to describe Gentiles, can partake of Christ.

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Jesus himself understood the OT prophetic timetable, Israel must be given the priority to decide whether or not to accept Jesus first, before the Gentiles could decide.