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P
And that is a problem--people thinking non-OSAS means not sinning to keep your salvation. But Biblical non-OSAS is not falling into unbelief to keep your salvation. BIG difference.
Paul disagrees with you. He warns people standing and abiding in Christ by their faith to fear losing their place in Christ through unbelief:
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.(Romans 11:20-21)
Assuming it's true that there are more scriptures used by people to defend OSAS (which there probably are since people see OSAS in the most ridiculous places in scripture) that in no way makes it so that a plain passage about losing your salvation because of unbelief doesn't mean that because there are two more that aren't as clear and suggest you can't lose it.
Perhaps the main problems with OSAS are it does not consider ALL the scriptures that talk about the subject, and chooses incomplete and more vague passages over clearer complete ones. Taken as a whole, it's clear that the condition for having the security of salvation is that you continue to trust in Christ.
Now the real question is, can a real believer stop trusting in Christ, or is the warning not to stop trusting sufficient to keep the believer believing? If the real believer can never stop believing that pretty much makes Matthew 18:6-9 meaningless. Jesus was wasting his breath saying it.
Paul disagrees with you. He warns people standing and abiding in Christ by their faith to fear losing their place in Christ through unbelief:
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.(Romans 11:20-21)
Assuming it's true that there are more scriptures used by people to defend OSAS (which there probably are since people see OSAS in the most ridiculous places in scripture) that in no way makes it so that a plain passage about losing your salvation because of unbelief doesn't mean that because there are two more that aren't as clear and suggest you can't lose it.
Perhaps the main problems with OSAS are it does not consider ALL the scriptures that talk about the subject, and chooses incomplete and more vague passages over clearer complete ones. Taken as a whole, it's clear that the condition for having the security of salvation is that you continue to trust in Christ.
Now the real question is, can a real believer stop trusting in Christ, or is the warning not to stop trusting sufficient to keep the believer believing? If the real believer can never stop believing that pretty much makes Matthew 18:6-9 meaningless. Jesus was wasting his breath saying it.
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P
The "us" refers to the saved, the truly converted, not to those who never experienced genuine conversion which includes apostates. 
Why would Jesus warn stumbling blocks about leading fake believers to the eternal fire?
Now folks, you can dismiss this very pointed passage about non-OSAS (Matthew 18:6-9) and elevate less pointed passages that seem to teach OSAS above it, but would that be very honest?
This makes Jesus a liar no matter how we try to spin it otherwise. This makes the gospel out to be a work and it is not - it is called "good news" for a reason.
People are free to believe whatever they like but once a son - always a son.
The son does remain forever in the house.
John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".
If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.
People are free to believe whatever they like but once a son - always a son.
The son does remain forever in the house.
John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".
If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.
P
My question about Matthew 18:6-9 should be especially meaningful to those who are teaching H-grace OSAS.
If by your teaching, a babe in Christ becomes emboldened to depart from the faith thinking he is still saved, will you escape the judgment that one deserves for causing a "little one who believes in (Jesus)" to stumble and go to the eternal fire? You got guts if you think you will.
If by your teaching, a babe in Christ becomes emboldened to depart from the faith thinking he is still saved, will you escape the judgment that one deserves for causing a "little one who believes in (Jesus)" to stumble and go to the eternal fire? You got guts if you think you will.
Well generally speaking repentance isn't a one time thing. Not to mention ive asked those who continually preach OSAS did they only repent once after they were saved or throughout their lives got no answer. Confessing shows acknowledgement to wrongdoing and respect to God for sinning against him. If people get in the habit of believing "im saved so i dont have to address God regarding anything" that's pretty disrespectful imo.
Is the righteousness of Christ eternal?
Is the blood of Christ eternal?
Is the grace of God eternal?
I am made the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith. His blood has made atonement for my sins. If I fall He holds me up. If I attained salvation then I could lose salvation. If Christ has purchased my salvation and God has given salvation to me then I have no opportunity to lose my salvation.
I am saved to serve and I am compelled to love Him because He first loved me. The rest of this argument is rather pointless. Those that have eternal life know it and those who don't know it.
This would I know are you saved by your will or the determinate will of God? Even the Lord Jesus demonstrated the submission of His will to the will of the Father. How about us?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is the blood of Christ eternal?
Is the grace of God eternal?
I am made the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith. His blood has made atonement for my sins. If I fall He holds me up. If I attained salvation then I could lose salvation. If Christ has purchased my salvation and God has given salvation to me then I have no opportunity to lose my salvation.
I am saved to serve and I am compelled to love Him because He first loved me. The rest of this argument is rather pointless. Those that have eternal life know it and those who don't know it.
This would I know are you saved by your will or the determinate will of God? Even the Lord Jesus demonstrated the submission of His will to the will of the Father. How about us?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1. First of all, the term OSAS should be replaced by the eternal security of the believer. Is it a solid Bible doctrine? Absolutely. Peter says that we are "kept by the power of God".
2. Can a real believer stop trusting in Christ for his salvation? Hypothetically anything is possible, but in reality the answer is "No". Why? Because the real believer has experienced the New Birth and the grace of God which brings salvation.
3. Matthew 18:6-9 is a general warning against sinning against the "little ones", not specifically related to this issue. However, if all Gospel truth is presented to the "little ones" from Scripture, then that ensures that there is no violation of this warning.
2. Can a real believer stop trusting in Christ for his salvation? Hypothetically anything is possible, but in reality the answer is "No". Why? Because the real believer has experienced the New Birth and the grace of God which brings salvation.
3. Matthew 18:6-9 is a general warning against sinning against the "little ones", not specifically related to this issue. However, if all Gospel truth is presented to the "little ones" from Scripture, then that ensures that there is no violation of this warning.
Only those who view this book through the rose colored working for I can lose salvation glasses will miss the points made....the whole book points to those who were desiring to go back under the religious ceremonies of the law...it speaks of a better way, a better covenant, a better sacrifice, a better priesthood, a better system etc....the whole point is...THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE for sins, SALVATION is not GAINED or LOST do to religious adherence to some system of laws and or religious deeds and better things are expected of them DUE to their salvation.....
P
Non-OSAS believes in eternal security too. Salvation is eternally secure for the BELIEVER, just as you yourself have said in the above. Non- OSAS also says you must continue to believe to continue to be eternally secure in Christ.
I definitely see you as agreeing with that part, that the promises are only secure for the the BELIEVER, not the fake believer, and not the ex-believer. The difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying is I suggest that the true believer can stop believing and thus, become lost, you do not believe that the believer can stop believing. But nonetheless, you believe that the promises are only for the believer who continues to believe.
"through faith". You left off the 'through faith' part.
We are kept for the day of salvation by the power of God THROUGH FAITH (1 Peter 1:5).
No continuing faith, no being kept for the day of salvation.
And this is the traditional Calvinist teaching about OSAS.
At least they uphold the need to continue to believe in order to be saved because they say the one who does not persevere in the faith to the very end never 'really' believed to begin with. So kudos to Calvinism for recognizing the need to continue in faith to the end in order to be saved. They will surely never be guilty of causing a little babe in Christ to stop believing by making them think they are still saved if they do that. They uphold the righteousness of believing (and, by the way, the living that proves that they are a believer). Non-OSAS is only different in that it says the believer can stop believing, and as a result be lost.
What is it then exactly that can cause a 'little one who believes in (Jesus)" to stumble and go to the eternal fire? That's the point. OSAS insists vehemently there is nothing that can cause a believer to end up in the eternal fire. Was Jesus just blowing smoke? Tell us.
I definitely see you as agreeing with that part, that the promises are only secure for the the BELIEVER, not the fake believer, and not the ex-believer. The difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying is I suggest that the true believer can stop believing and thus, become lost, you do not believe that the believer can stop believing. But nonetheless, you believe that the promises are only for the believer who continues to believe.
"through faith". You left off the 'through faith' part.
We are kept for the day of salvation by the power of God THROUGH FAITH (1 Peter 1:5).
No continuing faith, no being kept for the day of salvation.
And this is the traditional Calvinist teaching about OSAS.
At least they uphold the need to continue to believe in order to be saved because they say the one who does not persevere in the faith to the very end never 'really' believed to begin with. So kudos to Calvinism for recognizing the need to continue in faith to the end in order to be saved. They will surely never be guilty of causing a little babe in Christ to stop believing by making them think they are still saved if they do that. They uphold the righteousness of believing (and, by the way, the living that proves that they are a believer). Non-OSAS is only different in that it says the believer can stop believing, and as a result be lost.
What is it then exactly that can cause a 'little one who believes in (Jesus)" to stumble and go to the eternal fire? That's the point. OSAS insists vehemently there is nothing that can cause a believer to end up in the eternal fire. Was Jesus just blowing smoke? Tell us.
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