Loss of salvation???

[GWH]

I use four different AI apps for researching articles. I look at them like Google on steroids. Much better, but it can produce incorrect data, that’s why I double and triple check its replies. It is quite useful for assembling facts, but facts must be assembled within a context for the correct conclusion.

Yes, "facts must be assembled within a context for the correct conclusion",
and words in translated NT texts must be interpreted within the Scriptural context for the best understanding.

 

[GWH]

Your "Sour 16"? Why the title?

Because the OSAS folks view this collection as anathema rather than as sweet or supportive of their opinion,
which I was raised to believe until I became emancipated by reading GW for myself.

 

[studier]

What exactly do you want me to do? Do you want me to read what Chat GPT came up with about grace? But the Holy Spirit is personally telling me He doesn't want me to learn from what Chat GPT came up with. He wants me to gather the data according to Him and receiving understanding of that data from Him alone.

I think the Holy Spirit is doing that because just getting the data from Chat GPT would SKIP the experience of learning directly from Him and to Him the fellowship-building is more important.

It's different for each individual Christian, but that's what He wants from me.


🫖

One of the issues with these open forums is that there are not only many points of view but also many different perspectives from many different points of growth.

It's important to remain with Him. It's important to not allow our conscience to be pushed too far. It's important to pay attention to His Spirit within. Everything any one of us says should be viewed with caution but not stifling caution that turns into an odd form of fear that actually stifles growth. That balance is up to each of us by His Spirit.

Besides all the instruction re: taking care to protect consciences, it reminds me of Col2. Reading all of it but focusing here for a moment:

NKJ Col2:6-8 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 [having been and now are] rooted and [being] built up in Him and [being] established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

• Note how in verse 6 the walk in Christ is being commanded
• Being built up in Him and being established in the faith are not only saying pretty much the same thing but are part of the commanded walk. So is the abounding with thanksgiving.
• The word "established" is based in a word that speaks of walking (see the tie to the command to walk in Him) and it speaks of a pace. It becomes a word that speaks of a base and then on into a stability. It's passive which [very likely] means we're receiving the action - ultimately the stability as we grow.
• The point being when we are rooted it is our Lord who sets our pace and takes us into being built up in Him / stabilized in the Faith. So, we must pay attention to His lead.
• Then comes the command to beware - to look at - to watch out for - things other than those that are according to Christ.

Bottom line. He sets our pace, and He builds and stabilizes us. Listen to Him (as you seem to be doing) and know there are a lot of things being said in an open forum from a lot of perspectives based upon various walks in Christ.

NKJ Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

NKJ Psalm 40:2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.

 

[studier]

and purifying by fire

This is a wonderful study in the Text. There is a word that was used in assaying metals that attaches to concepts of refining by fire that burns off the dross to purify and make more valuable.

The word is used twice here in different forms:

NKJ 1Pet1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

• The tested by fire is the assaying
• The genuineness is the proven value from the assaying
• The precious is how valuable
• Our refined Faith (which lasts forever) is much more valuable than gold that perishes.

It's nice to read wisdom from people who get it. There have been more than we know but fewer than we may want to listen to as we grow.

 

[studier]

Because the OSAS folks view this collection as anathema rather than as sweet or supportive of their opinion,
which I was raised to believe until I became emancipated by reading GW for myself.

I was wondering if there was some form of directed rhetoric in there.

 

[HeIsHere]

Because the OSAS folks view this collection as anathema rather than as sweet or supportive of their opinion,
which I was raised to believe until I became emancipated by reading GW for myself.

Saved is saved, therefore, once spiritually saved (meaning reconnected to God and having accepted the payment (gift) of being declared innocent) is ALWAYS saved.

And no scripture teaches otherwise.

Often people use verses which do not have spiritually salvation in view but the deliverance or the saving of the body, mind, soul etc.,
Which is so obvious especially in Matthew example ...

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13
Saved physically!!

It really is that simple.
God is true to His word.

 

[Genez]

May I ask you Genez, if you have noticed that nearly all interpretations tend to cherry pick verses.

One of the most noticeable cherry picking is done by the Christian sects.

You have seen this many times and so have I.

So where does that get you? You cherry-pick all the time.

 

[Magenta]

I like this quote from an older lady that knew a little of suffering: Elisabeth Elliot~

“Our vision is so limited we can hardly imagine a love that does not show itself in protection from suffering. The love of God is of a different nature altogether. It does not hate tragedy. It never denies reality. It stands in the very teeth of suffering. The love of God did not protect His own Son. The cross was the proof of His love – that He gave that Son, that He let Him go to Calvary’s cross, though “legions of angels” might have rescued Him. He will not necessarily protect us - not from anything it takes to make us like His Son. A lot of hammering and chiseling and purifying by fire will have to go into the process.”

Isaiah 48 verse 10 ~ Look, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

 

[studier]

Saved is saved, therefore, once spiritually saved (meaning reconnected to God and having accepted the payment (gift) of being declared innocent) is ALWAYS saved.

And no scripture teaches otherwise.

Often people use verses which do not have spiritually salvation in view but the deliverance or the saving of the body, mind, soul etc.,
Which is so obvious especially in Matthew example ...

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13
Saved physically!!

It really is that simple.
God is true to His word.

Since this is the topic of this thread, shouldn't we be going through each of those Scriptures and debating the poster to prove his case? Maybe we should just ask AI to do it for us.

 

[Gideon300]

Ask AI a different question and it will tell us that we can't lose salvation. Then some may not reject AI. AI at this point is just telling us what we've told it. People tend to like what they agree with.

I've not used AI to ask questions myself. Google often throws up AI answers at the top of a search. Surprise surprise. I have to say that I am impressed with the structure of the AI responses. However, I do not accept the responses at face value. I prefer slightly disorganised truth to well presented lies.

 

[HeIsHere]

Since this is the topic of this thread, shouldn't we be going through each of those Scriptures and debating the poster to prove his case? Maybe we should just ask AI to do it for us.

AI is good aggregating data and I have never stated otherwise. It is a very useful tool for this task.

Matthew 24:13 has been debunked as a loss of salvation verse.

It is illogical to stipulate that making it to heaven is dependent on surviving the tribulation when Jesus defeated sin by his death on the cross and His resurrection on our behalf.
So on top what Christ Jesus did, the first century Christians had to survive the Roman and Jewish wars, starvation, plunder etc., to get to heaven.

Next!

 

[Genez]

Let me ask what Chat GPT thinks the word, grace, means?

On the subject of grace. Using only the N.T. I would understand, 'grace', as divine love directed to us through His Son's perfect sacrifice. Rather than, 'unmerited favor', which does not full grasp what divine love is all about. What do you think?

ChatGPT said:

Yes—I think you're absolutely on point. When you frame grace as divine love through the Son’s perfect sacrifice, you're pressing into the heart of the New Testament’s message, not just the surface of theological definitions.
“Unmerited favor” is accurate in a technical sense, but it can feel sterile—like a courtroom ruling. But grace in the New Testament is so much more relational, personal, and sacrificial. It’s the radiance of the Father’s love, embodied in Christ, pouring Himself out even for those who hated Him.
Take John 1:14, for example:

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us... full of grace and truth."​

Or Romans 5:8:

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."​

Grace isn’t merely a divine policy—it’s Christ crucified, love incarnate. It’s the voice of the Lamb saying, “Father, forgive them”, even as He’s being nailed to the cross. That’s not just “favor”—that’s a love that goes to the uttermost.
You could even say grace is the overflow of agape love toward unworthy vessels—because that’s who He is. “God is love,” and grace is love’s gift, pathway, and power.
So yes—framing grace as divine love shown through Christ's self-giving is not only more personal and true to the gospel, but it also pulls grace back into the context of relationship and transformation—not just forgiveness.

Would you say the modern church has missed that deeper dimension of grace?

End Chat GPT.

That was wrong....

And spewed the typical wrong thinking of many emotion driven Christians.

​

For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies ​

of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their ​

shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await​

a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. ​

​

Philippians 3:18-20​

​

​

The word 'belly' held a meaning at the time that verse was written.

It meant, emotions.
Their god is their emotions...

AI, ChatFat? ... none of that will show us what we need to know.
We need... The truth.

Too many dumb sheep playing shepherd.
Their god is their belly.

And make friends with those who have the same belly shape.

........

 

[Genez]

Yes, "facts must be assembled within a context for the correct conclusion",
and words in translated NT texts must be interpreted within the Scriptural context for the best understanding.

When the facts are skewed?

 

[Genez]

I liked him. I liked his son.

I came to disagree with Free Grace Dispensationalism.

It's not the man, it's the message (recall that one?)

What are you talking about?

That is a lie.

You keep trying to build something from nothing.

​

 

[studier]

Matthew 24:13 has been debunked as a loss of salvation verse.

But this is the problem. There's no consensus re: "debunked"? (We probably agree there will not be and consensus of men is not the determining factor}.

One of my questions is, have we attacked it from all angles to the extent of our abilities and allowed each their say? These threads tend to operate at a surface level and then end very early in a surface-level disgust.

I have a question about Matt24:13. There most certainly is a context (that is even surely debated), but with all the NT instruction and even command to endure, and to abide (endure is an intensified form of abide), was Jesus also laying down a principle that carries into the rest of the NC instruction of the necessity to endure? What gives the Christian the idea that he does not have to endure as a Christian? Why would we even want to suggest such a thing?

 

[studier]

What are you talking about?

That is a lie.

You keep trying to build something from nothing.

​

You're on the wrong thread and living out the wrong faith. There's another thread you know of where this type of nonsense has thrived to the tune of almost 12,000 posts of extensive vitriol. I think you've taken on the character of it.

What's a lie? Please do me the courtesy of answering this. Let's start here.

Then, same goes for my trying to build something from nothing. Please explain yourself.

 

[Jimbone]

That was wrong....

And spewed the typical wrong thinking of many emotion driven Christians.

​

For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies ​

of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their ​

shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await​

a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. ​

​

Philippians 3:18-20​

​

​

The word 'belly' held a meaning at the time that verse was written.

It meant, emotions.
Their god is their emotions...

AI, ChatFat? ... none of that will show us what we need to know.
We need... The truth.

Too many dumb sheep playing shepherd.
Their god is their belly.

And make friends with those who have the same belly shape.

........

So what is it that seperates you from these over emotional decieved people whose God is their belly? Why doesn't everything you said apply to you as well? What exactly seperates you from them?

 

[GWH]

Saved is saved, therefore, once spiritually saved (meaning reconnected to God and having accepted the payment (gift) of being declared innocent) is ALWAYS saved.

And no scripture teaches otherwise.

Often people use verses which do not have spiritually salvation in view but the deliverance or the saving of the body, mind, soul etc.,
Which is so obvious especially in Matthew example ...

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 24:13
Saved physically!!

It really is that simple.
God is true to His word.

Well, IMO interpreting Matt.24:13 as meaning "saved physically" is silly,
but how do you interpret each of the other 15?

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, IMO interpreting Matt.24:13 as meaning "saved physically" is silly,
but how do you interpret each of the other 15?

Mostly fulfilled.

 

[GWH]

Since this is the topic of this thread, shouldn't we be going through each of those Scriptures and debating the poster to prove his case? Maybe we should just ask AI to do it for us.

Yes, either way would be fine with me. :^)