Martin Luther Invented the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" Doctrine

[Grace777x70]

Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Law is a picture of us doing things in order to be righteous. Christ alone is our righteousness.

The whole gospel message reveals God's righteousness.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

 

[PeterJens]

Imputed righteousness

The truth is if Christs righteousness does not make us literally able to walk righteously
what is the point.

What those who argue our sin is not possible to remove because it is embedded in the
flesh, they miss-understand the nature of sin, love and rebellion and the knowledge of
good and evil.

If one accept sin is irremovable, and we are doomed to be in this prison until we see
Christ, then imputed righteousness is the only logical solution.

What I have discovered is though these people have hard hearts and a lack of knowledge
of love. These two realities mean rebellion or sin is justified to themselves as an unremovable
reality.

As legalists they tried through obedience without a transformed heart and failed.
Now they have dropped the attempt at obedience and just accept where they are is where
God meant them to be and they now have the eternal covering of Christ.

Now I understand why they are here and how they got here, but disagree this is the gospel
or Gods intention for their lives.

The problem is without a new spiritual revelation and move in their hearts they will forever
stay as they are.

One member was surprised I did not follow him in his walk, because he thought I knew God
in only my attempts to be righteous in a worldly strength. What he did not know is God had
made me righteous through the cross and with His love in my heart. It means what he was offering
was another version of failed striving to walk in Gods ways without God.

Salvation comes to the elect. They listen to Jesus and follow His ways. It is written on their
hearts. Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

News flash: the bible says God does not hear the prayers of sinners....

aww. It's ok man. God has to hear a sinner pray to get saved, he will hear your prayer if you just have faith. I will pray for you also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ is our righteous example to follow after. He is not our righteousness, that was invented by men who hungered and thirsted after worldliness. Because of what He did it justified God's mercy, in that those who repent and follow after Him should be saved....

your righteousness will NEVER match christs righteousness. MNo matter how hard you try.

Yes, Amen, He is who we are supposed to follow after. And learn tho live as he does. But that will never save us.. That fact you THINK you can live up to Gods standard. And be as sinless as Christ was.. Should make you tremble.. It is sad you do not fear God.

 

[truthhurts]

News flash: the bible says God does not hear the prayers of sinners....

NEWS flash to you: this statement was made by a blind man talking to the Pharisee's about Jesus who, had healed him. This statement is correctly applied to the OLD Covenant which, the blindman was under.

 

[truthhurts]

your righteousness will NEVER match christs righteousness. MNo matter how hard you try.

Yes, Amen, He is who we are supposed to follow after. And learn tho live as he does. But that will never save us.. That fact you THINK you can live up to Gods standard. And be as sinless as Christ was.. Should make you tremble.. It is sad you do not fear God.

Romans 5.17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 5.21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What you fail to see because you view yourself as a sinner saved by grace is that righteousness is also a gift and imputed to you at salvation....This is Jesus Christ righteousness and God no longer sees you as a sinner saved by his grace but as a righteous and justified saint because of Jesus' righteous that you receive at conversion.....

Understanding this moves you beyond sinner identity into right standing identity with God...it does not mean we stop sinning or are made perfect, all Saints will still sin, but it does mean that I need not be afraid of God and can now approach the throne of grace boldly and obtain the help and mercy I need to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age....

A sinner cannot approach the throne of grace to do this until they become righteous in God's sight....This is known as empowering grace...our personal righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, but the righteousness of Jesus I receive at conversion allows me to be reconciled back to God and is a position with him and not based on any kind of personal performance.....

This truth that is rarely taught and is the nearly to good to be true Gospel.....it is found between the poor ole sinner saved by grace sin-consciousness false doctrine, the works based to obtain & maintain salvation false doctrine....and the sinless perfection false doctrine...It is called by those who refute it righteousness-consciousness doctrine...

Paul called it the gospel of reconciliation...it is this truth that makes us zealous and prepared for good works, because my works are not based on the motivation of obtaining, maintaining self righteousness and salvation, or are not made manifest because I am unworthy as sinner saved by grace to partake in good works....or that I am now sinless and waiting to enter into glory......My motivation to do good works comes from the knowledge I was made righteous through Jesus and out of love for what he did for me, I take that grace and I give it to others....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 5.17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 5.21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What you fail to see because you view yourself as a sinner saved by grace is that righteousness is also a gift and imputed to you at salvation....This is Jesus Christ righteousness and God no longer sees you as a sinner saved by his grace but as a righteous and justified saint because of Jesus' righteous that you receive at conversion.....

Understanding this moves you beyond sinner identity into right standing identity with God...it does not mean we stop sinning or are made perfect, all Saints will still sin, but it does mean that I need not be afraid of God and can now approach the throne of grace boldly and obtain the help and mercy I need to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age....

A sinner cannot approach the throne of grace to do this until they become righteous in God's sight....This is known as empowering grace...our personal righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, but the righteousness of Jesus I receive at conversion allows me to be reconciled back to God and is a position with him and not based on any kind of personal performance.....

This truth that is rarely taught and is the nearly to good to be true Gospel.....it is found between the poor ole sinner saved by grace sin-consciousness false doctrine, the works based to obtain & maintain salvation false doctrine....and the sinless perfection false doctrine...It is called by those who refute it righteousness-consciousness doctrine...

Paul called it the gospel of reconciliation...it is this truth that makes us zealous and prepared for good works, because my works are not based on the motivation of obtaining, maintaining self righteousness and salvation, or are not made manifest because I am unworthy as sinner saved by grace to partake in good works....or that I am now sinless and waiting to enter into glory......My motivation to do good works comes from the knowledge I was made righteous through Jesus and out of love for what he did for me, I take that grace and I give it to others....

Ok dude, Please back off. I am getting a little sick of your nonsense of trying to tell people what they do and do not believe.

Here are the facts which maybe you can not quite comprehend.

1. If I have committed 1 sin in a 24 hour period. I was a sinner that day, Apart from the grace of God (which I KNOW AND Under Stand) and his unfailing and unquestioned love and forgiveness. That I am still seen righteous because of his blood. But to DENY that I had sin in that day, and was thus a "sinner whi is saved by grace" I would be lying to myself

2. John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us,,, If I have sin, Then I am a sinner saved by grace.

3. It is a HUGE difference in saying acknowledging that we have not met Gods standard, and admitting that we are still sinners saved by grace, and being conscious of every sin I commit and focusing on all that sin. for one, God tells us to set our minds on the things of the spirit. and not our flesh, Focusing on sin, would be focusing on the flesh, and point us to law..

Of course, You would not know what I believed concerning this because you have never took the tim eto ask, You just assumed you knew, and started attacking me from day one.

God reconciled me, and created me a new creature FOR GOOD WORKS.. and I do what I can to walk in them,, However, I REFUSE TO BE SUCH A PROUD ARROGANT PERSON as to think BEYOND JOHNS OWN WARNING, that I am PERFECT AT DOING THIS..

If you want to keep harassing me and keep attacking me based on your LACK OF KNOWLEDGE of what I believe. then once again, I ask you to stop..

If you want to talk, and try to figure out what I do believe, then please KINDLY stop ASSUMING, and ask..

 

[Skinski7]

3. It is a HUGE difference in saying acknowledging that we have not met Gods standard, and admitting that we are still sinners saved by grace, and being conscious of every sin I commit and focusing on all that sin. for one, God tells us to set our minds on the things of the spirit. and not our flesh, Focusing on sin, would be focusing on the flesh, and point us to law..

If you were living up to God's standard in the first place then you wouldn't need to cling to having to redefine grace as a cloak for your wickedness, and then also be trying to make out as if everyone else is just as wicked as you are.

The Bible teaches that "faith works by love" (Gal 5:6) and that "love works no ill"" (Rom 13:10), and that one whom "walk after the Spirit" has the "righteousness of the law fulfilled in them" *Rom 8:4).

Peter spoke of "escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust" and "partaking in the divine nature" (2Pet 1:4). In rejecting that, of course you'll still be enslaved to sin, for you NEVER escaped it.

 

[Skinski7]

your righteousness will NEVER match christs righteousness. MNo matter how hard you try.

Certainly not in your filthy religion it wouldn't. You don't uphold a faith that works by love and a love that fulfills righteousness. Lacking in that anything you do would of course be filthy.

It is no wonder that someone like you would incessantly defend a cloak for manifest wickedness.


You make statements like...

And learn to live as he does.

Yet deny it by claiming that such a thing is impossible.

Here is what John taught...

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Why contradict John?

 

[PeterJens]

your righteousness will NEVER match christs righteousness.

This concept assumes there are levels of righteousness.
You are either walking in communion with God and His ways or you are not.
But now the legalist wants to say, no there are levels in doing the right thing.

Ofcourse Jesus is very much our Lord but His ambition is for us to walk like Him.

 

[truthhurts]

Ok dude, Please back off. I am getting a little sick of your nonsense of trying to tell people what they do and do not believe. Here are the facts which maybe you can not quite comprehend.

I comprehend perfectly well that you have little or no real understanding of what your true position in Jesus Christ really is....and what the Bible says you are in Christ Jesus...

SINNER and SAINT or better stated RIGHTEOUS are positions/conditions not titles or adjectives describing a current state.....

These truths start in the OT...even under the old covenant, God ordained positions of men...sinner/wicked...rightoeus/blessed....Paul and other NT writers call it sinner/old man....righteous/new man

1. If I have committed 1 sin in a 24 hour period. I was a sinner that day, Apart from the grace of God (which I KNOW AND Under Stand) and his unfailing and unquestioned love and forgiveness. That I am still seen righteous because of his blood. But to DENY that I had sin in that day, and was thus a "sinner whi is saved by grace" I would be lying to myself

No you were a saint that sinned, not a sinner. Please show me any where in the NT that Paul and other NT writers identified those they wrote to as SINNERS....and not new creations....meaning a saint, which will still sin...

a SINNER is a person lost and not someone that has been justified by the blood and made righteous through the all sufficient work of Christ Jesus on the cross and him alone and certainly not any works.....

2. John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us,,, If I have sin, Then I am a sinner saved by grace.

EG how many times must you be reminded about context....and not 1 verse...the complete thought you have to see is not Just 1 John 1.8...the whole message is 1 John 1.5-10 & the thought continues on through 1 John 2.1-14 and completes at Vs 14


[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.



This entire passage deals with pre-conversion and then afterwards....you mention in other threads a pastor lied to you and some other group made you see the light about yourself...if this group gave you this 1 verse then you should run, because they are keeping you in condemnation and under the law

3. It is a HUGE difference in saying acknowledging that we have not met Gods standard, and admitting that we are still sinners saved by grace, and being conscious of every sin I commit and focusing on all that sin. for one, God tells us to set our minds on the things of the spirit. and not our flesh, Focusing on sin, would be focusing on the flesh, and point us to law..

by arrogantly proclaiming I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE!!!!!....you are guilty of focusing on your own flesh and not resting in the position Jesus died for you to have. Identifying yourself as a SINNER, is stating you are still under the law....and denying what Jesus Christ died for you to be and have...

Of course, You would not know what I believed concerning this because you have never took the tim eto ask, You just assumed you knew, and started attacking me from day one.

Several have asked you what you believe and you don't have the time...you get mad, upset and angry that anyone beyond your faith can be who God says they are....you circle back to your level of understanding....if anything, you give the perception that its more about what you don't believe than what you really believe....

God reconciled me, and created me a new creature FOR GOOD WORKS.. and I do what I can to walk in them,, However, I REFUSE TO BE SUCH A PROUD ARROGANT PERSON as to think BEYOND JOHNS OWN WARNING, that I am PERFECT AT DOING THIS..

Then maybe you should actually believe this and state a more accurate truth about yourself....I am a saint, that does sin and not perfect and never will be, but based on what Jesus did for me and his gift of righteousness I am no longer a sinner saved by grace......I am justified and made righteous by Christ and his work alone...I am motivated by his great love for what he did for me and infused with his enabling grace to do good works....Proclaiming your position in Christ Jesus is not being PROUD or ARROGANT....it is a meekness that enabling grace gives you to proclaim and demonstrate what is on the inside

you talk great lengths about grace but you seem to have no idea what it really has given you....

SINNER is a position you no longer are in once you come to Jesus...only Jesus and his work alone can take away that position....

If you cannot reconcile this, then get into he word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

You cannot say God reconciled and made you a new creature and out of the others side of your mouth say you are still a sinner....to do so suggests you are still seeking a savior for a position/condition that salvation in Christ and him alone already provided for you....you are a son, not a sinner....If you still cannot reconcile this, then get into the word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

new creatures still sin and will....but new creatures will obtain empowering grace not to SIN as much in their walk....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I comprehend perfectly well that you have little or no real understanding of what your true position in Jesus Christ really is....and what the Bible says you are in Christ Jesus...

SINNER and SAINT or better stated RIGHTEOUS are positions/conditions not titles or adjectives describing a current state.....

These truths start in the OT...even under the old covenant, God ordained positions of men...sinner/wicked...rightoeus/blessed....Paul and other NT writers call it sinner/old man....righteous/new man

No you were a saint that sinned, not a sinner. Please show me any where in the NT that Paul and other NT writers identified those they wrote to as SINNERS....and not new creations....meaning a saint, which will still sin...

a SINNER is a person lost and not someone that has been justified by the blood and made righteous through the all sufficient work of Christ Jesus on the cross and him alone and certainly not any works.....

2. John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us,,, If I have sin, Then I am a sinner saved by grace.

EG how many times must you be reminded about context....and not 1 verse...the complete thought you have to see is not Just 1 John 1.8...the whole message is 1 John 1.5-10 & the thought continues on through 1 John 2.1-14 and completes at Vs 14


[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.



This entire passage deals with pre-conversion and then afterwards....you mention in other threads a pastor lied to you and some other group made you see the light about yourself...if this group gave you this 1 verse then you should run, because they are keeping you in condemnation and under the law






by arrogantly proclaiming I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE!!!!!....you are guilty of focusing on your own flesh and not resting in the position Jesus died for you to have. Identifying yourself as a SINNER, is stating you are still under the law....and denying what Jesus Christ died for you to be and have...



Several have asked you what you believe and you don't have the time...you get mad, upset and angry that anyone beyond your faith can be who God says they are....you circle back to your level of understanding....if anything, you give the perception that its more about what you don't believe than what you really believe....



Then maybe you should actually believe this and state a more accurate truth about yourself....I am a saint, that does sin and not perfect and never will be, but based on what Jesus did for me and his gift of righteousness I am no longer a sinner saved by grace......I am justified and made righteous by Christ and his work alone...I am motivated by his great love for what he did for me and infused with his enabling grace to do good works....Proclaiming your position in Christ Jesus is not being PROUD or ARROGANT....it is a meekness that enabling grace gives you to proclaim and demonstrate what is on the inside

you talk great lengths about grace but you seem to have no idea what it really has given you....

SINNER is a position you no longer are in once you come to Jesus...only Jesus and his work alone can take away that position....

If you cannot reconcile this, then get into he word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

You cannot say God reconciled and made you a new creature and out of the others side of your mouth say you are still a sinner....to do so suggests you are still seeking a savior for a position/condition that salvation in Christ and him alone already provided for you....you are a son, not a sinner....If you still cannot reconcile this, then get into the word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

new creatures still sin and will....but new creatures will obtain empowering grace not to SIN as much in their walk....

ok dude, your attacking me based on semantics..

Not worth it,, All your doing is causing division, we are pretty much saying the same things, (from what I can see) but using different terms, which we most likely define or interpret differently.

If you want to keep attacking, thats your free will.. But I am done playing games..

 

[gb9]

the last paragraph in post # 132 gets said many times a day. good gravy, do some people just want to argue about HOW something is said, not about WHAT was said????

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the last paragraph in post # 132 gets said many times a day. good gravy, do some people just want to argue about HOW something is said, not about WHAT was said????

I just noticed my post #232 was messed up some how.. and too late to correct. (All I posted was the very last part of the whole post. the rest was supposed to be in quotes)

What paragraph were you talking about?

 

[truthhurts]

ok dude, your attacking me based on semantics..

I never attacked you in this post at all...semantics?...laughable if not so sad...

Not worth it,, All your doing is causing division, we are pretty much saying the same things, (from what I can see) but using different terms, which we most likely define or interpret differently.

The truth presented before you causes the division...

If you want to keep attacking, thats your free will.. But I am done playing games..

There are no games with the truth of the Gospel...

 

[limey410]

Romans 5.17
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 5.21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What you fail to see because you view yourself as a sinner saved by grace is that righteousness is also a gift and imputed to you at salvation....This is Jesus Christ righteousness and God no longer sees you as a sinner saved by his grace but as a righteous and justified saint because of Jesus' righteous that you receive at conversion.....

Understanding this moves you beyond sinner identity into right standing identity with God...it does not mean we stop sinning or are made perfect, all Saints will still sin, but it does mean that I need not be afraid of God and can now approach the throne of grace boldly and obtain the help and mercy I need to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age....

A sinner cannot approach the throne of grace to do this until they become righteous in God's sight....This is known as empowering grace...our personal righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, but the righteousness of Jesus I receive at conversion allows me to be reconciled back to God and is a position with him and not based on any kind of personal performance.....

This truth that is rarely taught and is the nearly to good to be true Gospel.....it is found between the poor ole sinner saved by grace sin-consciousness false doctrine, the works based to obtain & maintain salvation false doctrine....and the sinless perfection false doctrine...It is called by those who refute it righteousness-consciousness doctrine...

Paul called it the gospel of reconciliation...it is this truth that makes us zealous and prepared for good works, because my works are not based on the motivation of obtaining, maintaining self righteousness and salvation, or are not made manifest because I am unworthy as sinner saved by grace to partake in good works....or that I am now sinless and waiting to enter into glory......My motivation to do good works comes from the knowledge I was made righteous through Jesus and out of love for what he did for me, I take that grace and I give it to others....

I actually agree with most of what you are saying. God no longer sees us as sinners because He sees us righteous as a result of what He accomplished. We are in fact Saints that sin. Fully righteous by what He did, not through anything we did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I actually agree with most of what you are saying. God no longer sees us as sinners because He sees us righteous as a result of what He accomplished. We are in fact Saints that sin. Fully righteous by what He did, not through anything we did.

I think we all agree wiht thim,,

it seems to be a semantic issue,, not a doctrinal issue, thats what makes it so sad.

 

[notuptome]

Certainly not in your filthy religion it wouldn't. You don't uphold a faith that works by love and a love that fulfills righteousness. Lacking in that anything you do would of course be filthy.

It is no wonder that someone like you would incessantly defend a cloak for manifest wickedness.

So much for operating in love. This is very caustic and based on emotion bent on retaliation.

You make statements like...


[/B]Yet deny it by claiming that such a thing is impossible.

Here is what John taught...

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Why contradict John?

How is this demonstrated by your conduct?

Hebrews 13:18 ¶ Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You cannot make yourself righteous. God must work His good will in you. God works through Jesus and God holds the everlasting covenant of the blood of Jesus as unbreakable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[truthhurts]

Ok dude, Please back off. I am getting a little sick of your nonsense of trying to tell people what they do and do not believe.

Here are the facts which maybe you can not quite comprehend.

1. If I have committed 1 sin in a 24 hour period. I was a sinner that day, Apart from the grace of God (which I KNOW AND Under Stand) and his unfailing and unquestioned love and forgiveness. That I am still seen righteous because of his blood. But to DENY that I had sin in that day, and was thus a "sinner whi is saved by grace" I would be lying to myself

2. John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us,,, If I have sin, Then I am a sinner saved by grace.

3. It is a HUGE difference in saying acknowledging that we have not met Gods standard, and admitting that we are still sinners saved by grace, and being conscious of every sin I commit and focusing on all that sin. for one, God tells us to set our minds on the things of the spirit. and not our flesh, Focusing on sin, would be focusing on the flesh, and point us to law..

Of course, You would not know what I believed concerning this because you have never took the tim eto ask, You just assumed you knew, and started attacking me from day one.

God reconciled me, and created me a new creature FOR GOOD WORKS.. and I do what I can to walk in them,, However, I REFUSE TO BE SUCH A PROUD ARROGANT PERSON as to think BEYOND JOHNS OWN WARNING, that I am PERFECT AT DOING THIS..

If you want to keep harassing me and keep attacking me based on your LACK OF KNOWLEDGE of what I believe. then once again, I ask you to stop..

If you want to talk, and try to figure out what I do believe, then please KINDLY stop ASSUMING, and ask..

anything from the word offends you...that seems to be your larger problem...

 

[valiant]

I comprehend perfectly well that you have little or no real understanding of what your true position in Jesus Christ really is....and what the Bible says you are in Christ Jesus...

SINNER and SAINT or better stated RIGHTEOUS are positions/conditions not titles or adjectives describing a current state.....

These truths start in the OT...even under the old covenant, God ordained positions of men...sinner/wicked...rightoeus/blessed....Paul and other NT writers call it sinner/old man....righteous/new man

No you were a saint that sinned, not a sinner. Please show me any where in the NT that Paul and other NT writers identified those they wrote to as SINNERS....and not new creations....meaning a saint, which will still sin...

a SINNER is a person lost and not someone that has been justified by the blood and made righteous through the all sufficient work of Christ Jesus on the cross and him alone and certainly not any works.....

2. John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us,,, If I have sin, Then I am a sinner saved by grace.

EG how many times must you be reminded about context....and not 1 verse...the complete thought you have to see is not Just 1 John 1.8...the whole message is 1 John 1.5-10 & the thought continues on through 1 John 2.1-14 and completes at Vs 14


[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.



This entire passage deals with pre-conversion and then afterwards....you mention in other threads a pastor lied to you and some other group made you see the light about yourself...if this group gave you this 1 verse then you should run, because they are keeping you in condemnation and under the law






by arrogantly proclaiming I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE!!!!!....you are guilty of focusing on your own flesh and not resting in the position Jesus died for you to have. Identifying yourself as a SINNER, is stating you are still under the law....and denying what Jesus Christ died for you to be and have...



Several have asked you what you believe and you don't have the time...you get mad, upset and angry that anyone beyond your faith can be who God says they are....you circle back to your level of understanding....if anything, you give the perception that its more about what you don't believe than what you really believe....



Then maybe you should actually believe this and state a more accurate truth about yourself....I am a saint, that does sin and not perfect and never will be, but based on what Jesus did for me and his gift of righteousness I am no longer a sinner saved by grace......I am justified and made righteous by Christ and his work alone...I am motivated by his great love for what he did for me and infused with his enabling grace to do good works....Proclaiming your position in Christ Jesus is not being PROUD or ARROGANT....it is a meekness that enabling grace gives you to proclaim and demonstrate what is on the inside

you talk great lengths about grace but you seem to have no idea what it really has given you....

SINNER is a position you no longer are in once you come to Jesus...only Jesus and his work alone can take away that position....

If you cannot reconcile this, then get into he word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

You cannot say God reconciled and made you a new creature and out of the others side of your mouth say you are still a sinner....to do so suggests you are still seeking a savior for a position/condition that salvation in Christ and him alone already provided for you....you are a son, not a sinner....If you still cannot reconcile this, then get into the word and study it out...Romans is the best place to start understanding this.....

new creatures still sin and will....but new creatures will obtain empowering grace not to SIN as much in their walk....

I see. So when Paul wrote 'Christ died to save sinners of whom I am the chief' he was saying that he was lost again?