Millions of years ago ! ?
- Thread starter wincam
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What's valid about it? It's not an argument. I thought logic was your field?
Actually, the manuscripts that exist have all been dated. So we do have a pretty good idea how far removed various manuscripts and codices are from the original writings.
Actually we do know. Textual critics break down manuscripts into families. There are roughly 5 categories (Alexandrian, Egyptian, Eclectic, Western, and Byzantine). So no, based on the actual evidence in existence, they didn't all come from a single copy. This is known just by observing the manuscripts and the variants in the manuscripts. And there exits a host of manuscripts long before "10 generations" had elapsed, so there's really no need to exaggerate your claims here.
Like I said, there's a whole litany of academic literature on this subject.
The original papyri don't exist anymore. I thought we established this.
I mean, at some point there was an original document.....so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying something like, "what if the NT Epistles weren't really written by "Paul?"
Actually, the manuscripts that exist have all been dated. So we do have a pretty good idea how far removed various manuscripts and codices are from the original writings.
Actually we do know. Textual critics break down manuscripts into families. There are roughly 5 categories (Alexandrian, Egyptian, Eclectic, Western, and Byzantine). So no, based on the actual evidence in existence, they didn't all come from a single copy. This is known just by observing the manuscripts and the variants in the manuscripts. And there exits a host of manuscripts long before "10 generations" had elapsed, so there's really no need to exaggerate your claims here.
Like I said, there's a whole litany of academic literature on this subject.
The original papyri don't exist anymore. I thought we established this.
I mean, at some point there was an original document.....so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying something like, "what if the NT Epistles weren't really written by "Paul?"
E
the arguments you imposed are flawed.
1. It assumes that when the continental plates moved, it moved rock on rock. which would be impossible. and if it were possible. they are correct. it would generate that much heat
2. It assumes that there was no underground water with which these plates could slide on (2 huge deep see drills ran into water more than 5 miles deep, which is supposedly impossible by scientific terms
3. It ignores the fact that the crust was covered under floodwaters at the time
I just gave a few, there are many more..
1. It assumes that when the continental plates moved, it moved rock on rock. which would be impossible. and if it were possible. they are correct. it would generate that much heat
2. It assumes that there was no underground water with which these plates could slide on (2 huge deep see drills ran into water more than 5 miles deep, which is supposedly impossible by scientific terms
3. It ignores the fact that the crust was covered under floodwaters at the time
I just gave a few, there are many more..
National Geographic?
"The first multicelled animals appeared in the fossil record almost 600 million years ago."
Precambrian Time, Earth History Information, Prehistoric Facts -- National Geographic
"The first multicelled animals appeared in the fossil record almost 600 million years ago."
Precambrian Time, Earth History Information, Prehistoric Facts -- National Geographic
Is this based on Ussher? Institute for Creation article......Is this what you are referring to?
Theologically, OEC and evolution contain serious problems which simply cannot be resolved!
"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being” the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [SUP]46 [/SUP]But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. [SUP]48 [/SUP]As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." 1 Cor. 15:45-49
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, andso death spread to all men[SUP][e][/SUP] because all sinned— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam,who was a type of the one who was to come.[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:12-21
"just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"
This is very important! If the first Adam did not exist, then there was no need for Christ, the second or last Adam to come into the world. Sin entered the world right at the beginning, and our world has continued to go downhill because of it. People are becoming less healthy, the genetic load is increasing. Species are being lost at a huge rate. God's creation is going downhill, which is exactly what the YEC model predicts. I would have to say, that if Christ does not come soon, there may not be a world to return to.
So you cannot have it both ways. In order to need a second Adam to deliver us from sin, you need a first Adam. Not a metaphorical or long age one. Not a gradual evolving of the species.
First Adam - brought sin into the world
Second Adam - redeemed us from sin. (Jesus Christ)
"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being” the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [SUP]46 [/SUP]But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. [SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. [SUP]48 [/SUP]As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." 1 Cor. 15:45-49
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, andso death spread to all men[SUP][e][/SUP] because all sinned— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam,who was a type of the one who was to come.[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:12-21
"just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"
This is very important! If the first Adam did not exist, then there was no need for Christ, the second or last Adam to come into the world. Sin entered the world right at the beginning, and our world has continued to go downhill because of it. People are becoming less healthy, the genetic load is increasing. Species are being lost at a huge rate. God's creation is going downhill, which is exactly what the YEC model predicts. I would have to say, that if Christ does not come soon, there may not be a world to return to.
So you cannot have it both ways. In order to need a second Adam to deliver us from sin, you need a first Adam. Not a metaphorical or long age one. Not a gradual evolving of the species.
First Adam - brought sin into the world
Second Adam - redeemed us from sin. (Jesus Christ)
S
You guys, it's still day 6. If the work in man was finished why do we need to be transformed into the image of Christ, who IS THE IMAGE OF GOD...think about it. Jesus said the Father was WORKING thru him and that he came to finish the father's work. Fundamentally, something is lacking in man that only Christ can complete, which is why he said: let US make man...think about it. 
He finished the beginning, the Alpha and omega, which is why he stated on the cross "IT IS FINISHED", because by his sacrifice we could finally be made holy, like God is.
He finished the beginning, the Alpha and omega, which is why he stated on the cross "IT IS FINISHED", because by his sacrifice we could finally be made holy, like God is.
Last edited by a moderator:
S
Well you got part of the quote right...no one has seen God, only God the one and only, who is at the Father's side, meaning Christ. God is pleased to show his image through the son, in heaven and on Earth.
*Jesus answered:"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Maybe that understanding will help you understand this..."for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." Meaning he was the Angel of the Lord's presence who accompanied Moses and even the whole of Israel. MAYBE we can see why the NT says Christ accompanied them and understand why Paul would even know that, and link it to this Isaiah statement...whom Peter said was prophesying by Christ in them...
ISAIAH 63:9-"In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel*of his presence*saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried*them all the days of old*."
SURELY we don't think he who was, and is, and is from the beginning just started interceding in the NT right? I mean if Moses and Elijah can be in glory speaking with Christ in the NT on the mountain of his transfiguration, can't Christ be in glory and speaking with them in the OT...seriously.
*Jesus answered:"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Maybe that understanding will help you understand this..."for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." Meaning he was the Angel of the Lord's presence who accompanied Moses and even the whole of Israel. MAYBE we can see why the NT says Christ accompanied them and understand why Paul would even know that, and link it to this Isaiah statement...whom Peter said was prophesying by Christ in them...
ISAIAH 63:9-"In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel*of his presence*saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried*them all the days of old*."
SURELY we don't think he who was, and is, and is from the beginning just started interceding in the NT right? I mean if Moses and Elijah can be in glory speaking with Christ in the NT on the mountain of his transfiguration, can't Christ be in glory and speaking with them in the OT...seriously.
Last edited by a moderator:
V
A man goes to church and starts talking to God.
He asks, "Lord, what is a million dollars to You?"
God answers, "A million dollars is like a penny to Me."
The man then asks, "God, what is a million years to You?"
God replies, "A million years is like a second to Me."
The man ponders this for a few moments then asks, "God, may I please have a penny?"
and the Lord answers, "In a second." rofl!!
He asks, "Lord, what is a million dollars to You?"
God answers, "A million dollars is like a penny to Me."
The man then asks, "God, what is a million years to You?"
God replies, "A million years is like a second to Me."
The man ponders this for a few moments then asks, "God, may I please have a penny?"
and the Lord answers, "In a second."
rofl!!
E
that would be great,
but the sediment layers and fossile lays are easily explained by a global flood. In fact. More readily explained, and alot less questions are needed to be asked to explain things which do not make sense (it is actually more scientific and reliable)
ps.. I do not get my theology or scientific understanding from the national geographic (rolls eyes)
but the sediment layers and fossile lays are easily explained by a global flood. In fact. More readily explained, and alot less questions are needed to be asked to explain things which do not make sense (it is actually more scientific and reliable)
ps.. I do not get my theology or scientific understanding from the national geographic (rolls eyes)
E
You also have another problem. If death was a result of the sin of that first adam. Then there would have never been a death of anything (plant or animal) prior to that sin. Thus all the "so called" fossils which predate that adam, would never exist. and we must come to another conclusion (the fossil record was caused by a global catastrophic flood.)
If you don't like National Geographic, how about the Natural History Museum in London?
"Dinosaurs were several types of extinct reptiles that lived 230-65 million years ago."
Dinosaurs and other extinct creatures | Natural History Museum
You said you don't get your science from National Geographic.
Where do you get your science from?
"Dinosaurs were several types of extinct reptiles that lived 230-65 million years ago."
Dinosaurs and other extinct creatures | Natural History Museum
You said you don't get your science from National Geographic.
Where do you get your science from?
S
Well we missed what Jesus said about his Father WORKING thru him and him coming to FINISH something in man that was not complete. You guys, it's still day 6. If the work in man was finished why do we need to be transformed into the image of Christ, who IS THE IMAGE OF GOD...think about it. Jesus said the Father was WORKING thru him and that he came to finish the father's work. Fundamentally, something is lacking in man that only Christ can complete, which is why he said: let US make man...think about it. *
He finished the beginning, the Alpha and omega, which is why he stated on the cross "IT IS FINISHED", because by his sacrifice we could finally be made holy, like God is.
*He finished the beginning, the Alpha and omega, which is why he stated on the cross "IT IS FINISHED", because by his sacrifice we could finally be made holy, like God is.