misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[Euphemia]

Well KenAllen, then you are calling your Protestant Reformers liers!

Martin Luther: ----"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God"

Luther still held tightly to some of his Catholic error. He is not representative of the truth of the word in this regard. As Christians, we need to learn to spit out the bones that so often accompany truth as promoted by fallible human beings. God is the giver of His own wisdom.

God's word is truth.


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[fordman]

Yes, that's horrifying...

Then you fall in the category of those mentioned in the first paragraph of my post # 633.

"Your reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what your own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine." (see post 640 of this thread)

not just to me but to my Jesus.

Jesus horrified of His own Mother???? I think not!
　
　


Pax Christi

 

[fordman]

Luther still held tightly to some of his Catholic error. He is not representative of the truth of the word in this regard. As Christians, we need to learn to spit out the bones that so often accompany truth as promoted by fallible human beings.

And we are supposed to take your word for it???? Again....I think not, your gonna have to do better than that!

Pax Christi
　

 

[Euphemia]

Then you fall in the category of those mentioned in the first paragraph of my post # 633.

"Your reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what your own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine." (see post 640 of this thread)

No, I know Jesus, and know exactly who He is. I believe that the RCC fosters a religious climate surrounding who Jesus is. The real Jesus by His active and powerful Spirit dispels that cloud.

Jesus horrified of His own Mother???? I think not!

He is dismayed at the false worship of a human being He called mother, but who, as a sinner, called Him her Saviour.


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[epostle]

Luther still held tightly to some of his Catholic error. He is not representative of the truth of the word in this regard. As Christians, we need to learn to spit out the bones that so often accompany truth as promoted by fallible human beings. God is the giver of His own wisdom.

God's word is truth.
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By "God's word" you mean the man made, unhistorical, unworkable, unscriptural, illogical doctrine of sola scriptura invented by Martin Luther that you rigidly follow, yet say he is not representative of the truth of the word. Make up your mind.

 

[Loco]

As JC explained to Nicodemus, the Spirit blows where it wishes and no one can see it, contain it nor command it (but God, who is the Spirit). There is the invisible Church made up of those who proclaim they belong; and the visible Church made up of those that do belong. No man save Christ knows who is in which until death.

Therefore, it matters only a little to me what denomination, or lack of denomination, a person claims.

One of the problems with the RC is their fixation on the visible. This comes out in many ways. I belong to the PCA, a conservative Presbyterian denomination. The PCA totally recognizes multiple other denominations as totally Christian. They admit their "distinctives" do not affect the Gospel and are, on the whole, not that important.
For example here is a PCA pastor speaking on how unimportant it is to baptize babies or wait for a confession of faith:
http://clearnotebloomington.com/worship/sermons/2015/11/you-shall-keep-my-covenant


Rome on the other hand, is subdivided into many, many orders. Some of these orders hate and have even killed one another in the past, such as Jesuits killing Dominicans in the New World; or the more famous incident with the Knights Templar that fill the web with conspiracy theories. There is a superficial unity, but below that you have liberation theology clashing with ultra-conservatives, the "lavender mafia" backstabbing Benedict into retirement, and all manner of viciousness. I have a very good friend who was an Augustinian monk. He is very conservative but wound up in a liberal controlled convent. They sent him to a psychiatric institution and nearly killed him with overdoses.

Now this friend of mine, was and remains a genuine Christian as does my wife. I take issue with Protestants who claim the RC is not a Christian Church and yet give a pass to Anglicans, liberal Presbyterians and a host of other far, far worse organizations that I find difficult to acknowledge as Christian. Having said that though, let me say something about how the RC maintains a veneer of unity.

Rome is as it always has been. It offers the "Pax Romana" via tyranny, as the current Italian Pope is seeking to reassert after a brief period of semi-tolerance. Yes, Mario Jose Bergoglio was born in Argentina, but he is Italian. As Malachy said "Peter the Roman". I continue to watch this man wrestle with the curia to bring down what is left of the Christian Truth in the RC and replace it with today's "gospel" of tolerance for everyone- except the faithful Christian.

 

[Loco]

By "God's word" you mean the man made, unhistorical, unworkable, unscriptural, illogical doctrine of sola scriptura invented by Martin Luther that you rigidly follow, yet say he is not representative of the truth of the word. Make up your mind.

When tempted by Satan, or queried by Saduccees, our Lord always responded "It is WRITTEN." so do you mean THAT man-invented sola scriptura?

 

[Euphemia]

No...I'm not stupid. God's word is the bible---all 66 books of it, lovingly inspired for my spiritual life by God Himself. It does differ from the misguided conpilation that the RCC has wrought and takes ownership of due to human tampering and religious agendas.

By "God's word" you mean the man made, unhistorical, unworkable, unscriptural, illogical doctrine of sola scriptura invented by Martin Luther that you rigidly follow, yet say he is not representative of the truth of the word. Make up your mind.

 

[Loco]

Now, Who was it again that when confronted by Satan or Saducees always started with "It is Written"?

Sounds very sola scriptura to me...

 

[Loco]

Euphemia, before God we are all as stupid sheep.

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia, before God we are all as stupid sheep.

Where does God say that, exactly? Sorry, but God doesn't consider His people as stupid. He has made us worthy children of the King.

 

[epostle]

No, I know Jesus, and know exactly who He is. I believe that the RCC fosters a religious climate surrounding who Jesus is. The real Jesus by His active and powerful Spirit dispels that cloud.

He is dismayed at the false worship of a human being He called mother, but who, as a sinner, called Him her Saviour.　　

If all you can do is hurl brainless insults, and repeat the same false charge of "Mary worship" after it has been explained at least a dozen times as to why it is so stupid, you can play with the Whore-duh-Babble On psychos in my ignorasium. The difference between you and Satanists is profound, and so are the similarities. It makes me wonder if you have any respect for your own mother.

​

The Satanists dressed in priest cossacks and smeared blood on the Virgin Mary on Christmas Eve outside the church. They draped themselves in Satanic symbols and recited a Satanic prayer.

HORROR=> Satanists Desecrate Mary Statue at Catholic Cathedral on CHRISTMAS EVE (Video) - The Gateway Pundit

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Where does God say that, exactly? Sorry, but God doesn't consider His people as stupid. He has made us worthy children of the King.

Perhaps what he meant is that we are spiritually dead until we become born again. As the bible states, those who are born again are given the right to be called children of God. Before we are born again, we are not children of God, but children of another who is our enemy.

Additionally, we are called sheep even after we are born again. His sheep hear His voice! Sheep aren't that intelligent... yes, but as long as we remain and continue to follow the Shepherd, we shall be ok!

 

[Euphemia]

I agree with you, but that wasn't the poster's point.

Perhaps what he meant is that we are spiritually dead until we become born again. As the bible states, those who are born again are given the right to be called children of God. Before we are born again, we are not children of God, but children of another who is our enemy.

Additionally, we are called sheep even after we are born again. His sheep hear His voice! Sheep aren't that intelligent... yes, but as long as we remain and continue to follow the Shepherd, we shall be ok!

 

[fordman]

I belong to the PCA, a conservative Presbyterian denomination. The PCA totally recognizes multiple other denominations as totally Christian. They admit their "distinctives" do not affect the Gospel and are, on the whole, not that important.

I give you kudos Loco for revealing which denomination you belong too. Most folks within this forum don't have the cajones to reveal their religious affiliation. I can only surmise out of fear that someone might find something about it they'd have to explain or defend. Where we Catholics on the other hand welcome it.

I searched the web looking to educate myself of the church you belong too Loco without much success. You said the PCA, a conservative Presbyterian denomination correct? Well, the only ones I could come up with were the PCUSA (Presbyterian Church in the USA), Presbyterian Church in America, Reformed Presbyterian Church, Bible Presbyterian Church, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Presbyterian Church, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and the Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States (RPCUS) Are any of these the churh you belong/ If not, could you direct me to a web-site of the denomination you belong?
　
　


Pax Christi

 

[epostle]

As JC explained to Nicodemus, the Spirit blows where it wishes and no one can see it, contain it nor command it (but God, who is the Spirit). There is the invisible Church made up of those who proclaim they belong; and the visible Church made up of those that do belong. No man save Christ knows who is in which until death.

Therefore, it matters only a little to me what denomination, or lack of denomination, a person claims.

One of the problems with the RC is their fixation on the visible. This comes out in many ways. I belong to the PCA, a conservative Presbyterian denomination.

I'm happy for you, but that does not qualify you to make dogmatic declarations on Church teaching.

Rome on the other hand, is subdivided into many, many orders. Some of these orders hate and have even killed one another in the past, such as Jesuits killing Dominicans in the New World;

Can you provide scholarly documentation? Chick Publications doesn't cut it. "many orders" does not mean disobedience and rebellion. The Church and the Native Americans | Catholic Answers

the more famous incident with the Knights Templar that fill the web with conspiracy theories.

A few background facts:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-sad-history-of-the-knights-templar

There is a superficial unity,

First we need a working definition of "unity". Pun intended.

but below that you have liberation theology clashing with ultra-conservatives,

Liberation theology is based on the cry of Moses,"let my people go" but it was flawed. It was never fully accepted by the Church.

the "lavender mafia" backstabbing Benedict into retirement, and all manner of viciousness.

Pope B16 retired because he was too old and tired to do the job. The lavender mafia is at war with the Church and they had nothing to do with the Pope's decision.

I have a very good friend who was an Augustinian monk. He is very conservative but wound up in a liberal controlled convent. They sent him to a psychiatric institution and nearly killed him with overdoses.

If a member of your church suffers with mental illness, do you blame it on your church too?

Now this friend of mine, was and remains a genuine Christian as does my wife. I take issue with Protestants who claim the RC is not a Christian Church and yet give a pass to Anglicans, liberal Presbyterians and a host of other far, far worse organizations that I find difficult to acknowledge as Christian. Having said that though, let me say something about how the RC maintains a veneer of unity.

Rome is as it always has been. It offers the "Pax Romana" via tyranny, as the current Italian Pope is seeking to reassert after a brief period of semi-tolerance. Yes, Mario Jose Bergoglio was born in Argentina, but he is Italian.

Pope Francis is a tyrant? Is it because his parents were Italian or he was born in Argentina? Are all Italians and Argentinians tyrants? The first question is serious, the last two are not. Please answer the first question. Is Pope Francis a tyrant?

As Malachy said "Peter the Roman".

The prophecies of St. Malachy are forgeries and were never endorsed by the Church. No Pope would take the name "Peter", and if you look at the list of popes, none of them have. Any idea why? Take a guess.

continue to watch this man wrestle with the curia to bring down what is left of the Christian Truth in the RC and replace it with today's "gospel" of tolerance for everyone- except the faithful Christian.

You must mean the latest Synod on the Family.
Good News from the Synod—9 Things to Know and Share | Catholic Answers

This one is not even a year old:
Laudato si' (24 May 2015) | Francis

An apostolic exhortation:
Evangelii Gaudium : Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) | Francis

If you are going to criticize the Pope have the decency to criticize what he really teaches, not preconceptions from cheap tabloid headlines.

 

[Euphemia]

Then you fall in the category of those mentioned in the first paragraph of my post # 633.

"Your reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what your own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine." (see post 640 of this thread)



Jesus horrified of His own Mother???? I think not!
　
　


Pax Christi

Mary has no "title" except as the mother of the man, Jesus. Yes, the man-made religious doctrine (and most importantly---non-biblical), is horrific in its intent and scope.

 

[epostle]

When tempted by Satan, or queried by Saduccees, our Lord always responded "It is WRITTEN." so do you mean THAT man-invented sola scriptura?

IT IS WRITTEN (Matthew 4:4) is not the smoking gun you think it is. IT IS WRITTEN is a direct citation of Deuteronomy 8:3, not the whole Bible and certainly not the NT that did not exist when Jesus quoted it. " What about the list of OT books that Jesus never cited?

...not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." You seem to think that every word that proceeds from the mouth of God can only be in written form? Isn't that restricting God? Jesus does not say it is written alone, or it is exclusively written. "Word" does not absolutely mean a written word. Bibles do not fall out of the mouth of God. Nowhere in the whole bible is "Word of God" confined to the written word alone. Do a search in a bible search engine and see for yourself. So "word" does not and cannot mean "written alone". The Bible is the written word of God, but not the sole means of transmitting revelation. Somebody had to discern which books belong in the Bible, it didn't assemble itself, which would have been impossible without Tradition, properly understood. The Bible is a fruit of the Catholic Church that you despise. Is she be right about the canon of the NT but wrong on everything else??? Or do you go by a revised version of history?

Jesus reminds the devil of the passage, "man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Not all of God's words are contained in Scripture. Besides Christ who is the Word of God (John 1:1,14), some of God's words come down to us in oral fashion (c.f., Acts 20:27; Gal. 1:11-12, 15-16; 1Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:2). Christ does not say nor does he imply a "scripture alone" approach to truth in this passage. Rather, he reminds us that we are to cling to and live by every word that he speaks, not just the written words contained in Scripture. Notice too the implicit warning here. The mere quoting of Scripture is not enough to establish one's truth claims, since here we see the devil himself (mis)quoting Scripture! That's why Peter warned that, "In Paul's epistles there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16).

TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE.

"It is written" does not support sola scriptura but refutes it.

 

[Budman]

First off you have to remember at the time of Pope John Paul II visit, (Now St.John Paul) Iraq had been guilty of real violations of human rights. However, this Islamic state was the most tolerant of Christians than any of its Islamic neighbors. Many Catholics held positions in government, commerce, education, etc. At that time, Christians represented 5% of the 20 million people in Iraq. The Popes visit confirmed the faith of Christian believers while showing forth a genuine love for all in this mostly Muslim nation.

Secondly, the Koran was a gift to him from the delegation. Islamic peoples are not casual in the giving of gifts. It represents the giver. They knew perfectly well that the Pope was a Catholic Christian, but they gave to him that which was regarded as most important in their life, their own holy book. Thus, at the end of the audience, the Pope showed his deep appreciation to this intimate self-donation, by kissing the Koran as a sign of respect. This gesture to the Koran is not dissimilar from his kissing the soil of nations he visited. It is a sign of human respect, but not a profession of faith or an imprimatur upon the Koran. The book was a visible symbol of a people and the Pope showed them welcome. The Pope appreciated the suffering of the Iraqi people, particularly the women and children. It showed he did not look down upon them but had a genuine respect for them within the brotherhood of man.

Wow. You didn't really answer my questions at all. In fact, all you did was cut-and-paste someone else's answer, almost word for word, from:

Here: Why Did Pope John Paul II Kiss the Koran? | Blogger Priest

You never have an original thought, do you? It's no wonder why you can never be convinced of the truth, no matter how much it is shown to you, because you simply cannot think for yourself. It's not simply a matter of sometimes forgetting to name a source. It's the same with the other Catholic poster here - nothing but cut-and-pastes, until he gets forced into a corner, then he'll simply put whoever put him there, on ignore.

BTW, To answer what "Father Joe" wrote:

No true Christian, for any reason, would kiss a pagan/satanic book. Nor show "respect" to a religion that opposes Christ and is, in fact, anti-Christ, and one that is responsible for sending billions of people into hell - period. Can you even imagine Jesus doing it? If not, how can your "representative" of Christ on earth do it?

Jesus, and the Apostles, condemned false religions - they didn't kiss their writings or show respect for them.

I think I can speak for all true born-again believers here by saying we would rather die than kiss the koran.

I can't answer that, and won't even try (and neither should you) since only God knows the depths of thier/our hearts, soul's and thoughts.

Jesus already answered it: " I Am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." (John 14:6)

Do muslims go through Christ? Then guess what - they neither have the way, nor truth, nor LIFE.

Ha...ha.. Dream on Pal, unlike you, I have a life outside this forum.

Really? It took you almost five months? And look when I joined. My posts have been pretty much a drop in the bucket. I apparently have more of a life outside this forum than you do.

Now that I've answerd your shotgun form of questions, (pretty sure you'll disagree with most of what I posted, but thats okay) how about you answering some of mine? Being you are a self proclaimed believer if the Sola Scriptura doctrine, I got a few questions for you. Could you show me......

Here's what I'm gonna do, Ford. I'll answer one question at a time. Until you can stop cutting-and-pasting your (or shall I say, "someone else's" answers).

1. Where the "The Sinners Prayer"is located in Scripture?

"If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10)

And just let me say, the rest are so easy it's almost laughable. You really need to cut-and-paste more difficult ones. As I suspect you even got your questions from:

Here: Bible Only Christian or Bible Believing Christian? 50 Unbiblical Practices and Doctrines

 

[Vdp]

Its interesting to see that fordman and epostle have yet to refute the proof that Ken brought out that Mary was a sinner and that we only have one mediator and He is Jesus.

Ken has a valid point that in the Scriptures he has proven only Jesus was without sin. I have yet to see the Catholics fordman and epostle refute this with Scripture only.

Also Ken has proven with Scriptures we have only one Mediator. Not one word from fordman or epostle using Scriptures only to refute where God says there is only one Mediator.

The problem with the Catholics like fordman and epostle is their Hearts have been hardened towards God. They are a lot like the Pharisees in the days when Jesus walked the Earth. The Hearts of the Pharisees was hard towards God. Just like the Catholics today, their Hearts are hard towards God. This is why they hate what the Scriptures says and try to replace the Truth from God with their lies from Satan. This is also why epostle puts people on ignore because of his hard Heart towards God.

Romans 2:5-11
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He will render to each one according to his works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For God shows no partiality.