There is nothing wrong with cut-and-pasting. If it's ok for everyone else, but not Catholics, then you impose a double standard. If I find something that is more eloquently expressed than what I could write, I will cut-and-paste. If you object to the content then refute it with reason and proper use of scripture and stop crying about cut-and-pastes.
That is not an answer to what Fr. Joe wrote, it is a blind emotional tirade. You should try reading it with an open mind. If you were a diplomat in Iraq and spit on a gift, I can just imagine the bloodshed that would follow. You have no concepts of diplomacy. Whether or not the Pope did the right thing will be debated for years, but you are ignoring all the factors involved, just like you ignored my post way back. #1348 . In post 1354 you gave a list of scriptures condemning a book that did not exist when the scriptures were written.
It is Iraqi custom is to kiss any given gift. This shows respect for the giver, not the gift. You project your white Anglo-American culture as the measuring rod for all cultures, and object if the Pope does something that seems to go against your thin system. You demand that the Pope be rude.
Another factor you can't bear to accept is that it was a diplomatic meeting with religious leaders to seek ways to reduce bloodshed. Maybe you favor Christians being killed by Muslims because the context of the meeting means nothing to you, just a photograph. You don't care about the persecuted Christian minority in Iraq but you seem to care about persecuting Catholics. It looks to me like you are more Muslim than the Muslims. You refuse to see beyond tabloid headlines.
It certainly wouldn’t be that he believes in Islam or believes that Islam is on a par with Christianity. If he believed either of these two things then he
(a) wouldn’t be the earthly head of the Christian faith and
(b) wouldn’t have approved the publication of Dominus Iesus, which asserts the salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church.
.JP2 And The Quran
Apostasy is the complete abandonment of the faith. Pope John Paul II in kissing the Koran did not do this. All the Muslims who were present during that occasion knew that JP2 was there as the head of the Catholic Church representing more than a billion followers throughout the world. Neither did the Muslims thought that in kissing the Koran JP2 has now converted to Islam and I expect you to know better.
The gesture of JP2 has to be understood in the light of his mission in visiting that place, if I am not mistaken in Iraq. It was the first time that a Pope has ever set foot on a predominantly Muslim land. We know that our brother Christians who are living in Iraq are most often than not subject to a silent and at times open persecution. (another factor you ignore)
This is a land in which the people who driven by religious convictions are not so tolerant of people of other faiths among which are the Christians who are in the minority. The fact that JP2 did not deny his identity and his Lord is evident from the homily which he gave during that visit. (another factor you ignore)
The Koran was given to the Pope as a gift and as a token of goodwill. In our part of the world we are so accustomed to giving gifts that we sometimes loose the real meaning of gift-giving. We giveaway Bibles as gifts so easily without any attached valuable meaning from our hearts. But among the Muslims they don’t usually give the Koran as a gift for they consider it to be their most sacred possession. Thus in presenting the Koran as a gift they were making a silent gesture of giving what to them is their most cherished possession.
In accepting the Koran and kissing it, JP2 was only responding to an unprecedented gesture from a kind host and he might have been aware that in that particular culture a kiss signify a gesture of friendship and gratitude. I have witness this personally myself. I am a college professor and I have a Muslim student who comes from Iran. Oftentimes I share to him about my Catholic faith as he also eagerly share to me about his Islamic faith.
By the time he graduated, I gave to him a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and told him that this book contains all what the Catholic Church teaches and all that we believe. Upon receiving it, he kissed the Catechism and said ‘Thank you sir’ to me. Of course, he did not become a Christian at that moment but I was touched by his gesture. Finally we have to give JP2 the benefit of doubt for after all he is the pope and we should not be hasty as to judge him of serious sin as apostasy.
//Koran is abomination to the Holy Trinity, why giving too much a need to respect? are they doing the same thing to our belief? Kissing is a form of respect to their belief which is against ours.//
My response: This is one thing we should learn in engaging in a spirit of dialogue with people of other faiths. While we condemn error we have to love those who are in error. While we repudiate heresy we have to show respect to people who happen to subscribe to a particular heresy.
Let remember that we cannot fault the Muslims of today with the same sin as say for example Mohammed. The Muslims of our contemporary society are already born into this faith and they are brought up in an environment which fosters the Islamic faith as the only true faith. ...
...We can respect other people’s faith convictions without compromising our own. This is the first step to open communications line with them. If people of other faiths don’t show us respect it is not a valid reason to show them disrespect. The Pope made the first move. If he being the head of the Catholic Church has shown respect for the Muslims by kissing the Koran then it is a silent yet forceful invitation to the other party to do the same. That they should respect also our Christian beliefs in as much as we respect theirs and then we can sit down and talk as brothers and as friends.
DEFENDING ECUMENISM AND JOHN PAUL THE GREAT KISSING OF QUR’AN - The Splendor of the Church
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[TD]
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Dominus Iesus (does that look like writings from a Muslim collaborator?) Is a church document wrong if it says the same thing you do, or is it wrong because it's a church document?
The salvation of non-Christians is another topic, but I don't believe God would condemn 1 billion people to hell for not understanding the Gospel. "For God so loved the world...", not just Christians.
Yes, that is a Catholic teaching you borrowed from us, but irrelevant to the discussion.
And just let me say, the rest are so easy it's almost laughable. You really need to cut-and-paste more difficult ones. As I suspect you even got your questions from:
Here: Bible Only Christian or Bible Believing Christian? 50 Unbiblical Practices and Doctrines[/QUOTE] It's not the best apologetic site but it's light blinds you from comprehending it.
That is not an answer to what Fr. Joe wrote, it is a blind emotional tirade. You should try reading it with an open mind. If you were a diplomat in Iraq and spit on a gift, I can just imagine the bloodshed that would follow. You have no concepts of diplomacy. Whether or not the Pope did the right thing will be debated for years, but you are ignoring all the factors involved, just like you ignored my post way back. #1348 . In post 1354 you gave a list of scriptures condemning a book that did not exist when the scriptures were written.
It is Iraqi custom is to kiss any given gift. This shows respect for the giver, not the gift. You project your white Anglo-American culture as the measuring rod for all cultures, and object if the Pope does something that seems to go against your thin system. You demand that the Pope be rude.
Another factor you can't bear to accept is that it was a diplomatic meeting with religious leaders to seek ways to reduce bloodshed. Maybe you favor Christians being killed by Muslims because the context of the meeting means nothing to you, just a photograph. You don't care about the persecuted Christian minority in Iraq but you seem to care about persecuting Catholics. It looks to me like you are more Muslim than the Muslims. You refuse to see beyond tabloid headlines.
It certainly wouldn’t be that he believes in Islam or believes that Islam is on a par with Christianity. If he believed either of these two things then he
(a) wouldn’t be the earthly head of the Christian faith and
(b) wouldn’t have approved the publication of Dominus Iesus, which asserts the salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church.
.JP2 And The Quran
Apostasy is the complete abandonment of the faith. Pope John Paul II in kissing the Koran did not do this. All the Muslims who were present during that occasion knew that JP2 was there as the head of the Catholic Church representing more than a billion followers throughout the world. Neither did the Muslims thought that in kissing the Koran JP2 has now converted to Islam and I expect you to know better.
The gesture of JP2 has to be understood in the light of his mission in visiting that place, if I am not mistaken in Iraq. It was the first time that a Pope has ever set foot on a predominantly Muslim land. We know that our brother Christians who are living in Iraq are most often than not subject to a silent and at times open persecution. (another factor you ignore)
This is a land in which the people who driven by religious convictions are not so tolerant of people of other faiths among which are the Christians who are in the minority. The fact that JP2 did not deny his identity and his Lord is evident from the homily which he gave during that visit. (another factor you ignore)
The Koran was given to the Pope as a gift and as a token of goodwill. In our part of the world we are so accustomed to giving gifts that we sometimes loose the real meaning of gift-giving. We giveaway Bibles as gifts so easily without any attached valuable meaning from our hearts. But among the Muslims they don’t usually give the Koran as a gift for they consider it to be their most sacred possession. Thus in presenting the Koran as a gift they were making a silent gesture of giving what to them is their most cherished possession.
In accepting the Koran and kissing it, JP2 was only responding to an unprecedented gesture from a kind host and he might have been aware that in that particular culture a kiss signify a gesture of friendship and gratitude. I have witness this personally myself. I am a college professor and I have a Muslim student who comes from Iran. Oftentimes I share to him about my Catholic faith as he also eagerly share to me about his Islamic faith.
By the time he graduated, I gave to him a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and told him that this book contains all what the Catholic Church teaches and all that we believe. Upon receiving it, he kissed the Catechism and said ‘Thank you sir’ to me. Of course, he did not become a Christian at that moment but I was touched by his gesture. Finally we have to give JP2 the benefit of doubt for after all he is the pope and we should not be hasty as to judge him of serious sin as apostasy.
//Koran is abomination to the Holy Trinity, why giving too much a need to respect? are they doing the same thing to our belief? Kissing is a form of respect to their belief which is against ours.//
My response: This is one thing we should learn in engaging in a spirit of dialogue with people of other faiths. While we condemn error we have to love those who are in error. While we repudiate heresy we have to show respect to people who happen to subscribe to a particular heresy.
Let remember that we cannot fault the Muslims of today with the same sin as say for example Mohammed. The Muslims of our contemporary society are already born into this faith and they are brought up in an environment which fosters the Islamic faith as the only true faith. ...
...We can respect other people’s faith convictions without compromising our own. This is the first step to open communications line with them. If people of other faiths don’t show us respect it is not a valid reason to show them disrespect. The Pope made the first move. If he being the head of the Catholic Church has shown respect for the Muslims by kissing the Koran then it is a silent yet forceful invitation to the other party to do the same. That they should respect also our Christian beliefs in as much as we respect theirs and then we can sit down and talk as brothers and as friends.
DEFENDING ECUMENISM AND JOHN PAUL THE GREAT KISSING OF QUR’AN - The Splendor of the Church
[TABLE="width: 609"]
[TR]
[TD]
5. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him” (Mt 11:27); “No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him” (Jn 1:18); “For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9-10).
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Dominus Iesus (does that look like writings from a Muslim collaborator?) Is a church document wrong if it says the same thing you do, or is it wrong because it's a church document?
The salvation of non-Christians is another topic, but I don't believe God would condemn 1 billion people to hell for not understanding the Gospel. "For God so loved the world...", not just Christians.
Yes, that is a Catholic teaching you borrowed from us, but irrelevant to the discussion.
And just let me say, the rest are so easy it's almost laughable. You really need to cut-and-paste more difficult ones. As I suspect you even got your questions from:
Here: Bible Only Christian or Bible Believing Christian? 50 Unbiblical Practices and Doctrines[/QUOTE] It's not the best apologetic site but it's light blinds you from comprehending it.
