Modern Dreams/Visions/Prophecy/Revelation Movement Over Complicates Everything (IMO)

[1still_waters]

I believe those who believe in modern day dreams/vision/prophecy/revelation severely over complicate things. They make things way more difficult and confusing for us.

I believe God did those things for a season, and that the complete revelation we need is now in the Bible.

Why do modern day dreams/visions/prophecy/revelation severely complicate things?

Let me give an example.

Let's say Donella Dreamer gets a dream. Her dream is full of interesting items.

Donella then brings her dream to people who believe in the same stuff as she does.

They spend tons of time dissecting/discerning/figuring it out.

Once it's all figured out, there are a handful of possibilities.

1. It doesn't line up with the Bible.
2. It says something the Bible already says.

If it's option one, then you've wasted all this time mulling over something that wasn't even from God! You actually risk having people follow it because someone claimed it was a vision. So you have tons of wasted time, and the possibility of leading others astray. That is complicating and confusing.

If it's option two, then you've spent all this time mulling over something that's already in the Bible in the first place! Instead of simply following what's already in the Bible, you've over complicated things by having to discern the minutia of some dream.

Excuse me for being blunt.
But that's pretty dog gone confusing and complicated.
Especially considering the fact that all we really need to know is already in the Bible!


It's turning a very simple thing, God's revealed word in the Bible, into a crazy complicated system of having to decipher dreams/visions and the like.

Honestly, the Bible can be complicated at points as it is.
Why do we then have to make things over complicated with dreams/visions, that either...

1. State what is already in the Bible.
2. Could lead astray because it isn't in the Bible?


My friends. There is no need to overcomplicate things. Just trust in what's already clearly and simply revealed.
Save yourself the headache that is described above.

 

[kenisyes]

The trouble with this idea is, that not all the revelation in the bible is happening in my life, or my city right now. That dream, consistent with the Bible, can focus my attention to something that needs to be done right now. If I do not speak my dream, it is less likely to happen. Speak it, and five people agree it is important, then there are enough of us to advance the Kingdom of God in that specific way.

It's like, there are no Messianic Jewish congregations in Delaware. If I have a dream of starting one, shouldn't I tell some other people I think it is what God wants?

 

[1still_waters]

The trouble with this idea is, that not all the revelation in the bible is happening in my life, or my city right now. That dream, consistent with the Bible, can focus my attention to something that needs to be done right now

All commands are meant to be lived now.
Evangelism should always be happening.

Why not quit over complicating things, and just follow all that the Bible so simply tells us to follow?
If folks would spend more time with their nose in the word, they'd have to spend less time with their nose in some supposed dream, spending TONS of time mulling over what it's telling you.

 

[kenisyes]

All commands are meant to be lived now.

That's true. But they are not in fact all being lived now. Nor can I, or you, live out everything at once.

 

[1still_waters]

The trouble with this idea is, that not all the revelation in the bible is happening in my life, or my city right now. That dream, consistent with the Bible, can focus my attention to something that needs to be done right now

I mean the whole basis for what you just said is founded on the fact that you're not doing something that's in the Bible. So God has to give you a dream to tell you to do it.

Well..for crying outloud...if folks would keep their noses in the Bible and obey, then they wouldn't miss it, and they wouldn't have a need for some supposed dream to tell them to do the thing they're missing.. Cuz they wouldn't be missing a thing in the first place, because they have their nose in the simplicity of God's word.

Even the supposed need for a "dream" seems centered around the fact that someone isn't making use of what's clearly in God's word. Maybe they're missing what's in the word because they're too busy mulling over and "discerning" the latest "dream" "prophecy" or whatever. In other words, get your nose outta all the new "dreams" and get it in the word, then you won't need the so called "dreams" in the first place.

 

[kenisyes]

Well..for crying outloud...if folks would keep their noses in the Bible and obey, then they wouldn't miss it, and they wouldn't have a need for some supposed dream to tell them to do the thing they're missing.. Cuz they wouldn't be missing a thing in the first place, because they have their nose in the simplicity of God's word.

The fact is, folks are not doing that. When Jonah cried out loud, it was a prophecy. Sometimes, dreams are what God has to use to get certain noses back where they belong. Sometimes, people like you have to cry out loud.

 

[1still_waters]

The fact is, folks are not doing that. When Jonah cried out loud, it was a prophecy. Sometimes, dreams are what God has to use to get certain noses back where they belong. Sometimes, people like you have to cry out loud.

Jonah didn't have access to the complete written word of God like we do.
Revelation was still in progression.
There is no more progression in revelation.
It's all in the Bible.

If one doesn't agree that it's all in the Bible they have more in common with Mormons, Branch Davidians and Muslims, than they do with orthodox Christianity.

 

[1still_waters]

Sometimes, dreams are what God has to use to get certain noses back where they belong. Sometimes, people like you have to cry out loud.

Again, the very need for the dreams is because folks aren't in the simplicity of God's word. They have it in other places. For SOME Christians this is probably because their nose is too busy chasing after another dream, instead of chasing after what's already been revealed for once and all.

I mean to me, if a Christian is saying they need a dream/prophecy or whatever, they're basically proclaiming that they aren't spending enough time in the word in the first place, seeing that dreams supposedly come due to lack of having ones nose in the right place. Well if they're seeking said dream because they aren't in the word enough, isn't the logical solution to spend more time in the word and not in chasing after another dream?

This whole things circular, confusing, and more complicated than it has to be.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Again, the very need for the dreams is because folks aren't in the simplicity of God's word. They have it in other places. For SOME Christians this is probably because their nose is too busy chasing after another dream, instead of chasing after what's already been revealed for once and all.

I mean to me, if a Christian is saying they need a dream/prophecy or whatever, they're basically proclaiming that they aren't spending enough time in the word in the first place, seeing that dreams supposedly come due to lack of having ones nose in the right place. Well if they're seeking said dream because they aren't in the word enough, isn't the logical solution to spend more time in the word and not in chasing after another dream?

This whole things circular, confusing, and more complicated than it has to be.

So what happened in Acts: This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. . . .so did that only happened on that one day? Or is this a promise to all born again believers filled with the Spirit?

Are you saying that the Bible, the scripture is the "completeness" that has come spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13:10?

Doesn't God use people of the Church to prophesy words of encouragement and edification? "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn to that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." In the Church, if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Do you believe that the church epistles are written to the "church" the body of Christ? Do you believe that the message in the church epistles is still for the "church" TODAY? Do you believe that scripture is written for instruction in righteousness?

Do we believe what is written? Just my thoughts on the subject!

 

[1still_waters]

So what happened in Acts: This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. . . .so did that only happened on that one day? Or is this a promise to all born again believers filled with the Spirit?

Are you saying that the Bible, the scripture is the "completeness" that has come spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13:10?

Doesn't God use people of the Church to prophesy words of encouragement and edification? "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn to that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." In the Church, if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Do you believe that the church epistles are written to the "church" the body of Christ? Do you believe that the message in the church epistles is still for the "church" TODAY? Do you believe that scripture is written for instruction in righteousness?

Do we believe what is written? Just my thoughts on the subject!

Oh my goodness. So much here to untangle.
*sigh*

I'll start from the top.

So what happened in Acts: This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. . . .so did that only happened on that one day? Or is this a promise to all born again believers filled with the Spirit?

You don't understand what last days means.
Last days meant the days when the OT temple system, covenant was fading out, and it was becoming clear that Jesus is what it's all about. Not the temple. You know as Jesus said.

The days of relying on temple and Jerusalem were in their last days...
John 4

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. [SUP]22 [/SUP]You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

As far as...

In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Yes if you read Acts you'll read of the folks who had dreams, prophecied and the like. Those were the last days and they did just what Joel said would happen in the last days when the OT temple system was fading out.

Ok. More untangling.

Are you saying that the Bible, the scripture is the "completeness" that has come spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13:10?

No that isn't my supporting scripture for believing scripture is the complete revelation. On the other hand I think even you agree scripture is complete. If you don't then you have more in common with Millerites, Mormons, Branch Davidians and other cults who think the Bible is still open for new revelation, than you do with orthodox Christians.

Doesn't God use people of the Church to prophesy words of encouragement and edification? "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn to that everyone may be instructed and encouraged." In the Church, if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

These were written to people who didn't have the full revelation of scripture.
Tell me, what will someone reveal to you today that isn't in scripture?
Joseph Smith of course has an answer to that. I hope yours isn't the same as him.

Do you believe that the church epistles are written to the "church" the body of Christ? Do you believe that the message in the church epistles is still for the "church" TODAY? Do you believe that scripture is written for instruction in righteousness?

Do we believe what is written? Just my thoughts on the subject!

Yeah this is a nice logic nugget. It goes something like this.
If you say certain things in the NT were only for the past, then you're saying the Bible isn't for us today.

That is a really silly assertion.

2 Timothy 412 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done.

So when are you going to bring Paul his cloak, scrolls and parchments?
You're probably thinkin..."Well that's only for who that was written to!"

Now if I replied with..."So you're saying scripture isn't for us today."...

You'd probably think I flipped my lid!

Those revelatory gifts had their purpose for a season in the early church.
We now have the complete revelation in the Bible.
Do you believe the Bible is a complete revelation?
Is the bible incomplete and still in need of a few extra books or chapters?

I think your answer to those questions puts you and me in agreement.

 

[zone]

I mean the whole basis for what you just said is founded on the fact that you're not doing something that's in the Bible. So God has to give you a dream to tell you to do it.

Well..for crying outloud...if folks would keep their noses in the Bible and obey, then they wouldn't miss it, and they wouldn't have a need for some supposed dream to tell them to do the thing they're missing.. Cuz they wouldn't be missing a thing in the first place, because they have their nose in the simplicity of God's word.

Even the supposed need for a "dream" seems centered around the fact that someone isn't making use of what's clearly in God's word. Maybe they're missing what's in the word because they're too busy mulling over and "discerning" the latest "dream" "prophecy" or whatever. In other words, get your nose outta all the new "dreams" and get it in the word, then you won't need the so called "dreams" in the first place.

 

[zone]

Still said..."if folks would keep their noses in the Bible and obey, then they wouldn't miss it, and they wouldn't have a need for some supposed dream to tell them to do the thing they're missing."

The fact is, folks are not doing that.

and i agree with you Ken.

but it doesn't change the reason for all the stuff still is talking about, and the result of it.
confusion and error (at least)

 

[kenisyes]

Jonah didn't have access to the complete written word of God like we do.

But the comparison is still valid, as the residents of Nineveh were ignoring the little bit of it that they did have. Once Jonah proclaimed their sin, they knew what to do. They simply had not been doing what they knew they should be doing, same as we are not.

 

[zone]

Again, the very need for the dreams is because folks aren't in the simplicity of God's word. They have it in other places. For SOME Christians this is probably because their nose is too busy chasing after another dream, instead of chasing after what's already been revealed for once and all.

I mean to me, if a Christian is saying they need a dream/prophecy or whatever, they're basically proclaiming that they aren't spending enough time in the word in the first place, seeing that dreams supposedly come due to lack of having ones nose in the right place. Well if they're seeking said dream because they aren't in the word enough, isn't the logical solution to spend more time in the word and not in chasing after another dream?

This whole things circular, confusing, and more complicated than it has to be.

and, the Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture.
He testifies of Jesus in the Scriptures.

He convicts people of sin (testified to in scripture) and unrighteousness (testified about in scripture).

are we not dishonoring God's very Plan by pushing aside the bible for subjectivity HOPING it's the Holy Spirit?
and often claiming the Spirit or God is using US instead of Scripture?

 

[kenisyes]

SOME

That is the key word. There must be a Jonah if there is a Nineveh. There must be a dream if God is going to have a "dream-come-true". Your post is as much a statement of what is wrong, as is the presence of the dream. Both are expressions of something better that God wants, is not getting, and will hurt His people if changes are not made.

 

[1still_waters]

But the comparison is still valid, as the residents of Nineveh were ignoring the little bit of it that they did have. Once Jonah proclaimed their sin, they knew what to do. They simply had not been doing what they knew they should be doing, same as we are not.

Christians now day have this...
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]

We go to the unsaved and proclaim the kingdom.[/SUP]

 

[Angela53510]

Regarding starting a congregation of Messianic Jews.

Is that a dream? Something that you dreamt of one night, woke up and remembered it and interpreted it as God's direct word to you?

Is it a vision? Did you see this congregation visually laid out before you, and therefore took it as a command that YOU personally needed to do it?

Is it a prophecy? Do you think God was speaking to you about the future? Or even the present?

My thought is all of that is already covered in the Bible. First there is:

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20.

Then there is Acts 1:8.

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

God has already commanded you to reach people. At least I am assuming that would be your goal in starting a Messianic Congregation. I go to one in the area where I live on occasion. It is planted in an area with a very high percentage of Jewish people, and the goal is to reach Jews with the message of Yeshuah.

So it seems to me, if you read and know the Bible you will find the support to do most things. The specifics, I think need a lot of prayer. God will answer you in amazing ways too numerous to note here.

Do I agree with this premise? That we don't need dreams, visions and prophecies these day?

Pretty much! I was in charismatic churches for many years, and most of the things that were in this category were a combination of hogwash and speculation. OR, it was from the Bible.

God is working in the world, and in our hearts. But I think Joel 2 was fulfilled in the book of Acts. Today, the Bible is our guide.

 

[kenisyes]

but it doesn't change the reason for all the stuff still is talking about, and the result of it.
confusion and error (at least)

But it needs to be clarified by SOME. It's the same answer I gave you last fall. Counterfeits of prophecy do not disprove that there is real prophecy.

 

[1still_waters]

That is the key word. There must be a Jonah if there is a Nineveh. There must be a dream if God is going to have a "dream-come-true". Your post is as much a statement of what is wrong, as is the presence of the dream. Both are expressions of something better that God wants, is not getting, and will hurt His people if changes are not made.

We don't need a dream.
For crying out loud.
This is so simple and basic!
Jesus already told us this and it's in the Bible...

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]----

If a Christian is sittin around waitin for a dream to tell them to do what's Jesus already has told us to do...chances are they aren't in a spiritual condition to go out workin for God in the first place.

This is exactly what I mean about this stuff over complicating things....

Instead of just doing..

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]
Folks are sittin around waitin for a dream.[/SUP]

[/SUP]

 

[kenisyes]

Christians now day have this...
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]

We go to the unsaved and proclaim the kingdom.[/SUP]

The reality is that most of them spend two hours a week in church and think that makes them followers of Jesus. Again., they are NOT doing what they ae told.