Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

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Oct 12, 2012
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I do not think you understand what I am sayign at all

Israel of old? Israel has always been isreal. And God promised he woudl always leave a remnant meaningn they will never die.
There is no more a need for a remnant after the Messiah is brought forth. The Jews Were cast out of the kingdom and cut off from the promises of God in 70ad, (this was the great and terrible day of the Lord,) where they are till this very day. The old way was abolished in Christ Jesus, there is no one Left in the old way to be apart of a remnant. .... Paul said...... there are no more Jew or gentile....... There are no more Jew who are God's chosen people, and there are no more gentiles who are God's mortal enemies.

For the life of me I can't understand why you people hold on so hard to a false paradigm. Find by me, I'm just throwing things around to see where they land, and working on my own self! 😋 Tks
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Where in the Bible would I find God calling flesh Israel his elect?

Not all Israel is Israel .When you look to what the word Israel to its intended meaning , it means "because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome. as our understand him not seen.... it fits the elect.

Before his name was changed to indicate the kind of relationship he had with God, it was Jacob, meaning the deceiver.

Change the meaning of one word violate the warning. and usurp the authorship.

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you

Genesis 32:27-29 King James Version (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
 
Oct 12, 2012
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Real conclusive proof.

Amo_8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

When did that happen? When the tabernacle of David was raised up.

Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

That's good my brother the Tabernacle of David is new covenant Israel, excellent type of exactly what we are speaking of here!!😋 Tosha!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Yowzsers are we making headway...? Are we reading beyond amos 9:11??

The very last verse of Amos says

And I will plant them upon their land, and thy shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

Hmm wonder what land amos is referring to???
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Yowzsers are we making headway...? Are we reading beyond amos 9:11??

The very last verse of Amos says

And I will plant them upon their land, and thy shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

Hmm wonder what land amos is referring to???
What’s your view on this verse? Where are the people going into captivity if he’s gonna plant them in their land?

Amo 9:14 (KJV) And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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In evaluating the system and existence of the state itself, it's neither biblical nor unbiblical on principle. Instead, it's unrelated. It's a state in the same manner that France is a state, the US is a state, Germany is a state...etc.. It's government is a Parliamentary democracy with constitutional law, and it's judicary is a 3 tier court system (in contrast to a "biblical" system of a theocratic monarchy with a king, priest, tribal elders, and temple with written law in the Torah).

it's moral insofar as it serves to respect and protect life, liberty, private property and the pursuit of happiness of it's citizenry. It's immoral insofar as it may violate people's natural rights.

I think in seeing Israel as some sort of prophetically predestined state, many Christians give it a pass on criticism of any kind as they don't want to "curse Israel" and therefore they themselves be cursed by God (as if avoiding valid criticisms would be excusable). They also want to see the Parousia and think that the current Israeli state will somehow speed that process along. Both of these reasons seem to me to be quite self-serving in that the people pushing the first reason think that by avoiding criticism they can protect themselves against God's punishment while failing to think that not-standing up for what's right could result in the same. And in the second reason many of those Christians typically don't believe they themselves will be around to live with the consequences of their policies (the "Great Tribulation" in their thinking) - they will escape via a rapture. They have no real skin in the game and simply want to save themselves at the expense of others.

Modern Israel, as a state, is neither biblical nor unbiblical in principle though. It's a state like any other. It can have good or bad policies like any other. It's governing system has strengths and weaknesses like any other. It's run by fallible humans like any other.
Here is a prophecy that many people feel was fulfilled in 1947 with Israel being reborn.

Ezekiel 34 NIV
11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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There are views of eschatology that require the Jews to rebuild the temple. This would most likely be impossible without the state of Israel.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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What’s your view on this verse? Where are the people going into captivity if he’s gonna plant them in their land?

Amo 9:14 (KJV) And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Hmm good question, maybe its relating to revelation with the 144,000 tribes of Israel entering the gates of heaven. Or its bringing them into the holy land again..because they had been taken captive into other lands (the diaspora, esp jewish ghettos/communities in practically every nation upon earth) and now hes bringing them back.
Note it says bring again..they all need to be gathered together again.

I can see how people might spiriutalise it to mean, God is sifting his people israel like a corn is sifted in a sieve (see verse 9) yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Ie, separation of spirit and flesh, from eearth to heaven. But maybe it means God doesnt want the israelites to stay in the lands they were taken captive he means to bring them to their homeland.

That we can see that happening spiritually as well as in the flesh comes as no surprise. After all Jesus Christ did come in the flesh.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Hmm good question, maybe its relating to revelation with the 144,000 tribes of Israel entering the gates of heaven. Or its bringing them into the holy land again..because they had been taken captive into other lands (the diaspora, esp jewish ghettos/communities in practically every nation upon earth) and now hes bringing them back.
Note it says bring again..they all need to be gathered together again.

I can see how people might spiriutalise it to mean, God is sifting his people israel like a corn is sifted in a sieve (see verse 9) yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Ie, separation of spirit and flesh, from eearth to heaven. But maybe it means God doesnt want the israelites to stay in the lands they were taken captive he means to bring them to their homeland.

That we can see that happening spiritually as well as in the flesh comes as no surprise. After all Jesus Christ did come in the flesh.
Thing is, nobody wants to be planted in earthly Jerusalem. The inheritance has always been heavenly Jerusalem.

The captivity in Amos is the captivity in Psalms. Jesus ascended and brought the children of the captivity with him.

Psa 68:18 (KJV) Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Have you guys ever noticed that the captivity was always about the protection of the chosen children of Israel while God poured out his wrath on the children of disobedience?

Abraham’s bosom was the protected place while the wicked Jews were in torment.

When Christ came he took the captivity from Abraham’s bosom and led them captive to heavenly Jerusalem.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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What’s your view on this verse? Where are the people going into captivity if he’s gonna plant them in their land?

Amo 9:14 (KJV) And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Do you believe Luke 21:24a has anything to do with the events surrounding 70ad, as I do (and have said in my posts on this, and its "chronology" issues I've pointed out)?

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/21-24.htm

So where Amos 9:14 says "will bring again [the captivity]," I don't believe it is saying "I will make them be captives again" (but more like gather them from the previous [time of] "led away captive into all the nations" [70ad Lk21:24a]... or like "I will restore them to their nation"... or "I will bring back [or turn back]" this thing... see "H7725 shuv" in some of the passages I've posted before regarding that future time period, like Hosea 5:15-6:3, 6:1 specifically [where the word "TILL" is also used in this context, v.15], as a general example, but there are others...)


[also Hosea 2:23a re: Israel (distinct from 24b re: the Gentiles)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ EDIT: sorry, it should have read "[also Hosea 2:23a re: Israel (distinct from 23b re: the Gentiles)]"

"I will sow her unto me in the earth;..." Hosea 2:23a (re: Israel, along with Hos1:10-11/Romans 9:26... Romans 11:15[25] also)... in view of Luke 21:24a also just mentioned.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ I should clarify... the "till/until" verses that I believe correlate are: Hosea 5:15 and Romans 11:25 (where the phrase "FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in" is found... which phrase I believe is something DISTINCT FROM the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" [i.e. Gentile domination over Israel] which started in 606bc which pertains to Neb's dream and the statue/image, with Neb as head of gold and which doesn't end until Christ's Second Coming to the earth, per Rev11:2)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Do you believe Luke 21:24a has anything to do with the events surrounding 70ad, as I do (and have said in my posts on this, and its "chronology" issues I've pointed out)?

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/21-24.htm
Yes I think that Luke 21:24 was AD 70. But I don't think "led captive into all nations" is "The Captivity". These people weren't in captivity, they were in Jerusalem and about to be sent into captivity for divine protection from the events of AD 70.

The UNTIL part is not talking about captivity, it's talking about how long Jerusalem would be trodden down.
So where Amos 9:14 says "will bring again [the captivity]," I don't believe it is saying "I will make them be captives again" (but more like gather them from the previous [time of] "led away captive into all the nations" [70ad Lk21:24a]... or like "I will restore them to their nation"... or "I will bring back [or turn back]" this thing... see "H7725 shuv" in some of the passages I've posted before regarding that future time period, like Hosea 5:15-6:3, 6:1 specifically [where the word "TILL" is also used in this context, v.15], as a general example, but there are others...)


[also Hosea 2:23a re: Israel (distinct from 24b re: the Gentiles)]
We know when the captivity of Amos 9:14 was, it was at the same time the tabernacle of David was rebuilt. And we know from the book of Acts that the tabernacle of David was rebuilt when Christ came the first time.

I believe "the captivity is a noun speaking of the captives in Abraham's bosom. And I also believe that they were taken captive by Christ... captivity isn't always a bad thing.

Besides all of that, we know that when Christ ascended he took the captives with him. Those he took would be those in captivity in Abraham's bosom.

Ephesians 4:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 This is why it[a] says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b][/QUOTE]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I believe that Acts 3:20-21[see v.18 also re: the "SUFFERING" part that WAS fulfilled already] and also the passage YOU are pointing out in Acts, refer to something yet future.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Thing is, nobody wants to be planted in earthly Jerusalem. The inheritance has always been heavenly Jerusalem.

The captivity in Amos is the captivity in Psalms. Jesus ascended and brought the children of the captivity with him.

Psa 68:18 (KJV) Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
But isnt Jesus bringing heaven down to earth? Revelation 21:2 also Revelation 21:10
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I believe that Acts 3:20-21 and also the passage YOU are pointing out in Acts, refer to something yet future.
I think some things are future but no those things. Simeon declared it and the writer of Acts said his words agree with the prophets. As it is written...