More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

[CWJ]

Ms. CWJ:

Interesting comments; wasn't Pentecost (Acts 2) the time when the church began to be manifest?

Blessings.

Hi Farouk,

Thank you for responding as you have. Rather than derail the thread by the introduction of a new subject, I will pm you tomorrow (God willing).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[ChosenbyHim]

ChosenbyHim, Faroukfarouk, Coban

I find myself in agreement with so much that you say in this thread, and wish you were here with me so that we could talk this through around the Word of God.

For the resurrection you are calling 'The Rapture', although made known through Paul, to the saints at Thessalonica, was not the hope He would ultimately strive for, revealed in Philippians. There was no doubt expressed by him in regard to his attaining the former, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one to whom the return of Christ could have been imminent, should Israel have repented; but there was in his attaining to the latter, as one who ran the race set before him, and for which 'faithfulness' was a vital ingredient, and to whom the mystery of Eph. had subsequently been made known.

Well the hope that is connected with the Rapture is the blessed and glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). It is also connected with the redemption of our body; when we shall receive a new glorified Body, fashioned like unto His glorious body (Philippians 3:21):


Romans 8:18-23

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [SUP]21 [/SUP]because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Also, please consider, that the Church, made known by revelation to Paul as 'the Lord's prisoner', and proclaimed by Him in Eph, Col. Phil. 2Tim and Titus, was still 'hid in God' at the time that 2 Thessalonians was written.

The hope of the Church which is His body, is to 'appear' with Him in glory, when He is manifested, we will be manifested with Him, the truth of which is made known in Colossians.

Our hope and earnest expectation should also be to see Him. We should love the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Tim. 4:8).The hope also is connected with the redemption of our bodies. When we will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29).

There is still a work of rightly dividing to be done in regard to your understanding of the subject of this thread, I feel.

With love to all three of you in Christ Jesus.
Chris

PS please forgive the absence of references.
I am using a kindle, and am limited at the moment.

Please considee these things
Thank you.

Thanks Chris.

 

[CWJ]

Hello ChosenbyHim,

Thank you very much for your response. You have carefully shown me what you perceive to be the hope of your calling, and I thank you for that. However, please consider the fact that when Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians concerning that resurrection, the revelation given by God to Paul while in prison at Rome was still 'hid in God'. It was revealed subsequently in the letters written from prison (Eph. Col. Phil. 2 Tim, Titus and Philemon). In those epistles the mystery concerning the Church which is His Body is revealed, including the resurrection hope associated with it, to which the ref. you gave from Titus refers.

If you would like me to speak to you further about this I will, ChosenbyHim, but a reading of Ephesians and Colossians with the knowledge that this is a further revelation, will by God's grace, make all clear.

With the prayer of Eph.1:17-, I will close.
With love to you in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jackson123]

And you base this statement above in red from what passage dear brother?

Let me show you something from Jesus' own mouth.

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (Notice the Elect are still on earth!!) those days shall be shortened.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Again notice the Elect are still on earth!!)

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Do you see ANY reference to the Lord's wrath in any of the above events contained between the start and end of the Tribulation?

The Lord Himself tells when the start and end of the Tribulation occurs and He describes events which occur during the Great Tribulation. If you simply READ, you will see that the Tribulation period is all about Satan's deception and has NOTHING to do with God's wrath!! This is where you, Brother Chosen and a whole host of other good Christians get confused.

God's wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is so very important to understand. If you (and others) can't grasp this simple concept you are going to be in a world of hurt. The Bible is crystal clear about this. Now please turn to

Rev 6:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Compare Mat 24:29 to the above. The Tribulation is over at Mat 24:29. This is when the Lord returns and this is when He pours out His wrath. This passage from Rev 6 could be put chronologically in order following Mat 24:29.

Don't let the imagery in Revelation throw you. The whole book is spiritual. The events are spiritual. The seals, trumpets and bowls are largely spiritual. If you try to see everything in the physical world you may as well give up now. I'm just trying to help, not put you down.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (Notice the Elect are still on earth!!) those days shall be shortened.

I like this notification.

 

[PlainWord]

Well the hope that is connected with the Rapture is the blessed and glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). It is also connected with the redemption of our body; when we shall receive a new glorified Body, fashioned like unto His glorious body (Philippians 3:21):

After the evil and Satanic temptation during the Tribulation, those of us believers left will certainly be looking for Jesus to appear and put a stop to it all. This verse does not provide the timing, just like NONE of your so-called Rapture passages provide a timing for the Lord's return. Again, you take passages with no timing and attribute them to the Rapture while all passages that do provide timing you attribute to the Second Coming. The fact is ALL passages refer to the Second Coming as there is no earlier return of Christ and there is absolutely ZERO scriptural proof for an earlier return of Christ.

The premise of this thread is false.

We are told clearly that the Lord returns AFTER the tribulation of those days. There is no passage that teaches the Lord returns earlier. There is no passage that teaches that any living person is taken to heaven to avoid the Tribulation. We are warned clearly NOT TO BE DECEIVED concerning the order of appearance of the Man of Sin and the true Christ. Which doctrine teaches the very deception Paul warns us about??

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

QUESTION: Again, which doctrine teaches a position contrary to Paul's clear warning????

ANSWER: The Pre-Trib Rapture

To give a warning like this, it is clear that there will be a deception related to reversing orders of which Christ appears first. Paul CANNOT be teaching a Pre-Trib Rapture in 1 Thes 4:17 then a different return here in 2 Thes 2. Paul's audience is the same - The Church at Thessalonica. The Thessalonians would either be raptured or they will go through Satan's Temptation (AKA the Tribulation). The same group CANNOT be subject to both events!!! Either they are raptured or they are not. If they are raptured, there is no need to provide the above warning because they would be gone.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

We are told clearly that the Lord returns AFTER the tribulation of those days. There is no passage that teaches the Lord returns earlier. There is no passage that teaches that any living person is taken to heaven to avoid the Tribulation. We are warned clearly NOT TO BE DECEIVED concerning the order of appearance of the Man of Sin and the true Christ. Which doctrine teaches the very deception Paul warns us about??

Plain, you are still not understanding the basic dispensational truth that Paul makes concerning the Body of Christ.

Paul clearly says in 1 Cor. 15:51 that we (born again Christians) shall not all sleep, but we (the body of Christ) shall all be changed.

And in that passage; Paul is referring to the Rapture of all Christians (both the dead in Christ and the living Christians) where we will all be changed into our new glorified bodies that are fit for eternity in Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

The very fact that Paul says that not all Christians shall sleep (die), proves that the timing of the Rapture is before the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[PlainWord]

Plain, you are still not understanding the basic dispensational truth that Paul makes concerning the Body of Christ.

Paul clearly says in 1 Cor. 15:51 that we (born again Christians) shall not all sleep, but we (the body of Christ) shall all be changed.

And in that passage; Paul is referring to the Rapture of all Christians (both the dead in Christ and the living Christians) where we will all be changed into our new glorified bodies that are fit for eternity in Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

The very fact that Paul says that not all Christians shall sleep (die), proves that the timing of the Rapture is before the time of Jacob's trouble.

Where in 1 Cor 15:51 does Paul provide the timing for this change as before the Tribulation? How do you know Paul is referring to the Rapture in this passage??? He makes no mention of Christ or His return, nor anyone being caught up, nor does he mention any gathering or presence of angels. If the "changing" takes place at the Lord's return, why doesn't Paul mention it in the other so-called Rapture passages?

The other problem you have is Paul does say clearly in his lesson of 1 Cor 15 that "DEATH" is the LAST enemy Christ defeats. Since we know Christ defeats Satan, the Beast and False Prophet and the armies that come against Israel when He returns, "DEATH" then would not be the LAST enemy Christ defeats, rather it would be the first enemy defeated. Thus, your view creates a conflict.

Another problem you have with this thinking is NOWHERE does Christ EVER mention transforming the living. Show me a verse where Christ discusses transforming the living when He returns!!

Another problem you have is Heb 9:27-28:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

These two verses make up ONE SENTENCE, thus one thought. If men is to die once then the judgment follows how can this verse be true if we are changed and don't die?? Note the reference is clearly Christ's second coming. There is no mention of transforming any living. However, we are told that it is appointed for men to die once!! The first death is the physical death. The only exception in history are Enoch and Elijah.

We know there is a 1,000 year millennial reign of Christ before the final eternal heaven state. We know no flesh may enter heaven as nothing corrupt can enter heaven. So ask yourself, what would be the only exception to this rule? If there are living people on earth during the millennium, would it not be necessary for them to be changed just prior to heaven descending to earth??? If it is necessary at the very end, after Satan is loosed and defeated once and for all, then this is the only time there is an exception to the "EVERY MAN MUST DIE ONCE" rule.

The context of Paul's lesson is clearly at the very end of the age and NOT prior to the Tribulation.

Paul gives the context right HERE!!


[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

What is the subject matter?? ANSWER: THE KINGDOM OF GOD, not the 1,000 year millennial earthly reign of Christ where we are still on the corrupt earth with corrupt bodies. DEATH is not defeated until SATAN is finally defeated and cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

 

[PlainWord]

Christ defeats DEATH at the END of His 1,000 year reign, not at the beginning..

 

[PlainWord]

Chosen,

How can Paul be teaching the Thessalonians that they will be raptured in 1 Thes 4:17 but then warn them in his next letter, written less than 1 year later to NOT BE DECEIVED about the timing of the Appearance of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition? If the Thessalonians are to be raptured BEFORE the A/C appears then they won't be on earth to need to worry about the timing of the Man of Sin.

However, if the Man of Sin comes first (which Paul and Jesus really teach) and this Man of Sin is presenting himself as Christ then the warning becomes valid.

The mere fact that Paul provides such a warning as does Christ and the fact that Christ twice discusses His ELECT still on earth during this temptation of ANTICHRIST defeats your Pre-Trib Rapture fantasy.

Again:

1. You have no passage that discusses a Pre-Trib Rapture timing.
2. You have have no passage that discuss two future returns of Christ.
3. You have no passage that states any living person being taken to heaven.
4. You have no passages that distinguishes between a raptured Saint and a Tribulation Era Saint.

What you have are multiple warning about not being deceived or going forth for the False Christ. Why give these warnings if we aren't supposed to be here?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You did not address the Scriptures themselves which were presented.

You simply assert they do not mean what they state.

The only conclusion which can be drawn in consistency with your statement is that
you cannot see that the NT specifically locates the new earth and resurrection
at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21) and locates the rapture with the resurrection
at the end of time.

Elin, by you and other post tribbers placing the Church (Body of Christ) into the time of Jacob's trouble, you cause the Bible to contradict. Every Christian today has eternal security (Eph. 1:13 & 4:30).


The saints in the time of Jacob's trouble do not have eternal security. Why? Because they must endure unto the end to enter into the Millennial Kingdom (Matt. 24:13 & Heb. 3:6-14).

Nor did you address that nowhere do we find Peter, James, John or Paul expounding
on or explaining a future temporal earthly kingdom in their letters of instruction and
teaching to the churches.

Elin, the Millennial Kingdom is referenced in many Old Testament books and also in the New Testament.


Paul mentions the coming Kingdom of Christ in 2 Tim. 4:1 and John mentions it in Revelation 20:4-6.


Now why doesn't Paul expound on the Millennial Kingdom? Well think about it Elin, what Gospel do we preach today?


Do we preach the Gospel of the Kingdom??


Or do we preach the Gospel of the Grace of God, also known as the Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection?


Now think about that. If the main objective of all 13 of the Pauline epistles written to the Body of Christ in the Church Age is for Church Age doctrine, then why would Paul expound on a Messianic Kingdom to a predominently Gentile body and assembly of called out believers?


Especially when the Gospel which we preach today is NOT the Gospel of the Kingdom.


Ever read about the 'Kingdom of Heaven' in the book of Matthew?


The phrase 'Kingdom of Heaven' is a term specifically used for the Millennial Kingdom where the Lord Jesus Christ will rule and reign on David's Throne in Jerusalem.


If you want to learn about the future Messianic Kingdom, then you need to study mainly the Gospels. Study what our Lord Jesus Christ taught in Matthew 5-7. The beattitudes will be the Constitution and Law of the Millennial Kingdom. Read it. Study it.


Also read Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and the Psalms. The Messianic Reign of Christ on this Earth in the midst of Zion is taught greatly in the Holy Scriptures.


Also understand Elin, that today in the Church Age, no preacher is supposed to be building any kingdom down here. What our job to do in this current dispensation is to call out a people for God's name.


Once the Rapture of the Body of Christ happens; God's dealings will once again be with the Nation of Israel. And in the time of Jacob's trouble, the 144,000 Jews are not going to be preaching the Gospel of the Grace of God.

The Gospel which the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel are going to be preaching is the the Gospel of the Kingdom:



Matthew 24:8-22

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand [SUP]16 [/SUP]then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: [SUP]17 [/SUP]let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18 [/SUP]neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [SUP]21 [/SUP]for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Paul specifically teaches a rapture with the resurrection
at the second coming of Christ (1Th 4:16-17),

Elin, Paul does not teach that. Paul teaches that the Rapture will happen at ANY moment (1 Cor. 15:52). Therefore, the Rapture cannot be at the Second Advent. The Rapture takes place before the time of Jacob's trouble begins. See 2 Thess. 2:6-8.

Peter specifically teaches a new heavens and new earth at the end of time
(2Pe 3:10-13),

Elin, the Rapture does not take place at the end of time. The Rapture is not the day of the Lord. The Rapture is a mystery which was revealed to Paul (See 1 Cor. 15:51-56).

Paul specifically teaches our reigning with Christ now (Eph 1:20 and 2:6),

And Paul was referring to our spirits. Referring to our Spiritual reign. In context, Paul is talking about the position of every Christian in Jesus Christ concerning their spiritual standing. And every man and woman in Christ Jesus is one spirit :



[SUP]1 Corinthians 6:17

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[/SUP][SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
[/SUP]

Paul specificially teaches the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11),
so there can be no other temporal age to come.

1 Corinthians 10:11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Now Elin, where exactly does Paul in this verse of Scripture teach that the Church Age is the fulfillment of all the ages???

But nowhere do the letters of Peter, James, John or Paul teach a future temporal earthly kingdom.

Again, Paul does teach a coming earthly Messianic Kingdom in 1 Tim. 4:1 and also in Hebrews 4:9-11:



Hebrews 4:9-11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.In context, that Rest which Paul is referring to is the rest that will come as a result of Christ's Messianic Kingdom where He will rule and reign for 1,000 years from Zion.


And while Peter or James may not exactly expound on it in their epistles, what about the plenty of places in the Scriptures where the Messianic Kingdom of Christ is mentioned?



What about Zechariah who mentions it in his book (Zechariah 8:1-8 and 12:10-14)?

How about Malachi who writes about the future Messanic Kingdom in his book (Malachi 4:2-4)?

How about Isaiah (Isaiah 32:17-18 & Isaiah 61:6-11)?

How about Jeremiah who also describes what the Messianic Kingdom will be like: (Jeremiah 31:31-38)?

And how about the John the apostle who gives the speicific time length and duration of the future Messianic Kingdom (Revelation 20)?



Well Elin you sure did overlook a lot of Scripture concerning the glorious future Messianic, Jewish, Davidic, Literal, Physical, Millennial Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ in Zion.


The Millennial Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is a reality that is going to take place immediately following Christ's Second Advent. I suggest you start studying the minor and major prophets a little bit more Elin concerning this vital Bible Doctrine.


The unconditional Jewish covenants and promises given to the Nation of Israel will all be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom.


And Elin, instead of trying to interpret the 1,000 years in an allegorical manner, like most Christians do these days, I suggest you simply allow the word of God to interpret itself. Compare Scripture with Scripture (1 Cor. 2:13).

The only conclusion I can draw that is consistent with your statement is that
you cannot see the plain teaching of the NT,
preferring instead your uncertain interpretations of prophetic riddles.

And that problem is above my pay grade.

No Elin, I simply choose to believe what the Bible says and teaches concerning the coming Messianic Kingdom of Christ. I do not seek to put my private interpretation into any verse of Scripture, but rather, I seek to compare Scripture with Scripture.

And if the Holy Bible teaches a literal event that will take place, I simply choose to believe it.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


OK brother, let me review your response.

1.
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this passage, I believe is a reference to His Second Coming.

2.
The phrase: "our gathering together unto him" I believe it refers to the Rapture of theBody of Christ. Which takes place before the Second Advent.


From 1 and 2 my conclusion is you believe this verse talking about second coming and rapture. I am I correct?

Correct, I do believe this. Our gathering together unto Him (Jesus Christ) takes place in the clouds. While the coming of the Lord, takes place at the Second Advent where we (Body of Christ) come back with the Lord on white horses (See Revelation 19:14).

Than you said quote:

The man of sin, the son of perdition; which is mentioned in verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2, is definitely the antichrist. No doubt.


That mean you believe No 1 and 2 will not happen before antichrist reveal I'm I correct?

The Rapture will take place sometime BEFORE the antichrist is revealed.

And the Second Advent will take place at the end of Daniel's 70th week (Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[Braveheartgal]

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I always have, always will.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Where in 1 Cor 15:51 does Paul provide the timing for this change as before the Tribulation? How do you know Paul is referring to the Rapture in this passage???

How do I know that Paul in 1 Cor. 15:51 is referring to the Rapture? Well that's simple: CONTEXT.


1 Corinthians 15:47-58

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [SUP]48 [/SUP]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [SUP]49 [/SUP]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

He makes no mention of Christ or His return, nor anyone being caught up,

He does in this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17 [/SUP]then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The Pre-trib. Rapture is a comforting Hope. If Christians were going to have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble, then Paul would not have written "wherefore comfort one another with these words."


But because Paul knew that the Rapture of the Body of Christ was and is before the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation), he wrote that we were to comfort one another with the words he had written in 1 Thess. 4. under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Especially verses 13 to 18.

nor does he mention any gathering or presence of angels. If the "changing" takes place at the Lord's return, why doesn't Paul mention it in the other so-called Rapture passages?

Well Plain, let me ask you this, why does Paul have to mention the changing in the other passage of Scripture concerning the Rapture?

He already described the changing and transformation/translation of born again believers in 1 Cor. 15:51-58, whey would he have to mention it again in 1 Thess. 4?


What I believe Paul does is he mentions some aspects of the Pre-trib. Rapture in 1 Cor. 15:51-58, while in 1 Thess 4:14-18, he mentions the other aspects of the same event (Pre-trib. Rapture).

The other problem you have is Paul does say clearly in his lesson of 1 Cor 15 that "DEATH" is the LAST enemy Christ defeats. Since we know Christ defeats Satan, the Beast and False Prophet and the armies that come against Israel when He returns, "DEATH" then would not be the LAST enemy Christ defeats, rather it would be the first enemy defeated. Thus, your view creates a conflict.

No Plain, it does not create a conflict. And here is why.

The death (last enemy) that is defeated which Paul is writing about in 1 Cor. 15:26 is the death that is cast into the Lake of Fire along with Hell:


Revelation 20:13-14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Now let's look at a unique passage of Scripture also in the book of Revelation:



Revelation 6:8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


And the death which Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 15:54-56, is the death of the born again believer. Just look at the verses before and after 1 Cor. 15:54 for context.

You see plain, there are two deaths. There is the first Death. And then there is the Second Death.

No saved saint will ever experience the Second Death.

So again; the Death which Paul refers to as the last enemy which shall be destroyed in 1 Cor. 15:26 is thevery death which is mentioned in Revelation 20:13-14.And in the context of 1 Cor. 15:51-58, the death Paul then refers to is the first death. Not the Second Death. You have to discern that difference.


And furthermore; let us look at 1 Cor. 15:23-26:


1 Corinthians 15:23-26

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Verse 25 specifically talking about Christ's Millennial Reign on the Earth from Jerusalem. And at the end of the Millennial Kingdom; Christ will then have put all enemies under his feet, just as the verse says He will. The Devil will be case into the Lake of Fire where the False Prophet and antichrist are, and so will all the unsaved dead, after they receive their judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15).


And of course in verse 26, the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, which again, is the death mentioned in Revelation 20:14.

Another problem you have with this thinking is NOWHERE does Christ EVER mention transforming the living. Show me a verse where Christ discusses transforming the living when He returns!!

Plain, the transforming and translation of living born again saints as well as dead saints does not happen at the Second Advent, it happens at the Pre-trib. Rapture, and Paul mentions it in 1 Cor. 15:51-58 by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21 & 2 Tim. 3:16).

Remember Plain, the Rapture is a Mystery that was revealed to Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ.

To note though; I believe that the Lord does brifely teach on the translation of born again saints in John 10:1-6:


John 10:1-6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Another problem you have is Heb 9:27-28:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

These two verses make up ONE SENTENCE, thus one thought. If men is to die once then the judgment follows how can this verse be true if we are changed and don't die??

Plain, haven't you ever heard of "exceptions to the rule."?

The only exception to Hebrews 9:27 is the Rapture. Just as Enoch did not die, since he was raptured. So will all living Christians be raptured at the translation and catching away of the Body of Christ (1 Thess. 4:15-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-58).

And by the way; Enoch is a TYPE of the Church in the Old Testament.

Note the reference is clearly Christ's second coming.

And I have been over this with you before Plain, the Second Coming is NOT the Rapture.

The Rapture is where Christ comes and reveals Himself to His bride in the clouds up in the air (1 Thess. 4:14-18). While Christ's Second Coming (Advent) is where He is revealed to the whole world; where every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7).

Things that are different are not the same.

There is no mention of transforming any living. However, we are told that it is appointed for men to die once!! The first death is the physical death. The only exception in history are Enoch and Elijah.

The other exception will be living Christians at the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

We know there is a 1,000 year millennial reign of Christ before the final eternal heaven state. We know no flesh may enter heaven as nothing corrupt can enter heaven. So ask yourself, what would be the only exception to this rule? If there are living people on earth during the millennium, would it not be necessary for them to be changed just prior to heaven descending to earth??? If it is necessary at the very end, after Satan is loosed and defeated once and for all, then this is the only time there is an exception to the "EVERY MAN MUST DIE ONCE" rule.

Why according to your reasoning would the end of the Millennial Kingdom be only time that there can be an exception to the 'every man must die once' rule??? When Enoch clearly met an exception to the rule in the Old Testament?

The context of Paul's lesson is clearly at the very end of the age and NOT prior to the Tribulation.

Paul gives the context right HERE!!


[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Well; the Kingdom of God Paul refers to in 1 Cor. 15:50 is the third Heaven where God dwells. Where does the Judgment Seat of Christ take place? In heaven.

What is the subject matter?? ANSWER: THE KINGDOM OF GOD, not the 1,000 year millennial earthly reign of Christ where we are still on the corrupt earth with corrupt bodies.

Plain, the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ is said to be the Kingdom of Heaven in the book of Matthew. The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are two different things. The Kingdom of Heaven is physical, where as the Kingdom of God is spiritual.


In the Millennial Kingdom; all Christians will have their glorified bodies. Why? because every Christian received their glorified body at the Rapture.


While the Tribulation saints which endured unto the end of the tribulation and made it through without dying will be permitted to enter into the Millennial Kingdom with their earthly bodies (See Matthew 25:31-46).

DEATH is not defeated until SATAN is finally defeated and cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.

I agree with you here; in that Death, will be defeated when it is cast into the Lake of Fire along with Hell (Rev. 20:14).

[HR][/HR]

 

[Jackson123]

Plain, you are still not understanding the basic dispensational truth that Paul makes concerning the Body of Christ.

Paul clearly says in 1 Cor. 15:51 that we (born again Christians) shall not all sleep, but we (the body of Christ) shall all be changed.

And in that passage; Paul is referring to the Rapture of all Christians (both the dead in Christ and the living Christians) where we will all be changed into our new glorified bodies that are fit for eternity in Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

The very fact that Paul says that not all Christians shall sleep (die), proves that the timing of the Rapture is before the time of Jacob's trouble.

Brother,

What is the connection between Not all Christian die with pre trib rapture?Rapture happen after tribulation.

Not all Christian die in tribulation, some die some hid in the wilderness and life til His coming.

I don't understand why not all Christian die prove pre tribulation Rapture?

no causal relationship Between not all Christian die and pre trib rapture.


It is like: I am tipping now. It prove pre trib rapture.

No causal relationship between I am tipping and pre trib rapture.

 

[PlainWord]

Chosen,

You have failed to disprove my points. First, nothing in 1 Cor 15:47-58 suggests a Pre-Trib Rapture. I agree there will be a changing of the living into spiritual bodies but not before the Tribulation.

When and where is the Kingdom of God established? When must we all be changed?

Right here on earth and after the millennium.

Rev 5:10

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now look back in 1 Cor to pick up the correct context:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Do you see in verse 24 the end coming? Do you see it is AFTER Christ returns? Do you see Christ must reign until all enemies are put under his feet? This is the 1,000 year millennial reign, is it not? Now notice what the last enemy to be defeated is. It is Death!!! You teach that death is defeated first, when Christ returns. Paul teaches that Death is defeated LAST, after Christ is put all other enemies under His feet. Since death is defeated LAST, verse 51 takes place AFTER the millennium. It is at this time that all remaining living saved persons must be changed and not have to face death.

1 Thes 4:17 is completely different from 1 Cor 15:50-51. They are separated by a span of 1,000 years. Other than a trumpet being mentioned, there is absolutely nothing else the same. In 1 Cor 15:50-51 there is no mention of Christ, his returning, any gathering together of believers, not catching up, no returning with saints. NADA, ZIP, NOTHING. In 1 Thes 4:17 there is absolutely no mention of any living person being changed. Thus there is nothing to suggest these passages are linked other than your mis-quided theory of a Pre-Trib Rapture which by necessity combines these passages.

Let's face it. There is no scripture that teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture as a stand alone lesson. Christ never even comes close to teaching it. It requires merging two unrelated teachings of Paul to even come close to it. Even do that, you still do not have a single verse in the Bible that clearly teaches the below:

1. Christ returns before the Tribulation (AKA the false deception of Satan and persecution of Christians)
2. Christ returning two more times/
3. Christ then doing a U-Turn and going back to heaven with or without any living person.
4. You have no distinction ever made between a Saint and a Trib Era Saint.

Instead what IS taught is:

1. The ELECT will be on earth during the Tribulation
2. The days will be shortened for the sake of the ELECT
3. A Great Multitude of Christians being killed during the Great Tribulation
4. A doctrine that teaches the incorrect sequence of which "Christ" appears first
5. Many, many warning about not going out and being deceived - something not needed if we are to be raptured.

Again, there is no distinction ever between a saint and a trib era Saint. This is a concoction of Pre-Trib believers made out of necessity to support their false premise.

I don't want to hurt your feelings brother Chosen and put you down. I am trying to waken you to the truth. We are already more than 1 year into the reign of the False Prophet. According to your schedule, we should be gone by now but we are all still here.

 

[PlainWord]

Plain, haven't you ever heard of "exceptions to the rule."?

The only exception to Hebrews 9:27 is the Rapture. Just as Enoch did not die, since he was raptured. So will all living Christians be raptured at the translation and catching away of the Body of Christ (1 Thess. 4:15-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-58).

And by the way; Enoch is a TYPE of the Church in the Old Testament.

Beware of the traditions of men and hold fast to the teachings of the Word.

You are creating two exceptions. The real exception is after the millennium. That is when all flesh must be changed. Heb 9:27 is discussing the return of Christ and in the same sentence stating all men are appointed to die once. You can't have an exception here or the whole verse would be a lie.

 

[PlainWord]

And I have been over this with you before Plain, the Second Coming is NOT the Rapture.

The Rapture is where Christ comes and reveals Himself to His bride in the clouds up in the air (1 Thess. 4:14-18). While Christ's Second Coming (Advent) is where He is revealed to the whole world; where every eye shall see Him (Rev. 1:7).

Things that are different are not the same.

Yes, we have been over this repeatedly. Let's try again.

AIR is NOT the SKY
AIR is AER which means air that we breathe.

Clouds of Heaven are NOT a puffy little rain cloud that we are used to seeing. The "cloud" the Lord returns in is probably not a cloud at all but is the closest thing any human can use to describe it. It is probably something very supernatural like an opening to another dimension where heaven is.

Please try to pay close attention to the below from Acts 1:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Notice that Jesus was taken up THEN a "Cloud" received him? Notice that suddenly angels where there? How did they get there? Did the same Cloud from Heaven deliver them? Just a thought.

Notice that the Lord returns in LIKE MANNER to how He left? How did He leave again? Was Christ already in the sky when He started out or was he on the ground with his disciples? He started from the ground, went up into the sky, then the cloud received him. So if he is returning in like manner, he isn't going to be hovering in some cloud. The cloud will deliver him to the sky at which point he will descend to earth.

There is only one future return of Christ ever taught and you cannot find one lesson that discusses two separate returns and that my friend is a FACT!!

 

[PlainWord]

While the Tribulation saints which endured unto the end of the tribulation and made it through without dying will be permitted to enter into the Millennial Kingdom with their earthly bodies (See Matthew 25:31-46).

Please show many any passage that says, "Tribulation saints." There isn't one. Know why? Because such distinction is never made because there is no Pre-Trib Rapture. WOW.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't want to beat a dead horse Brother Chosen, but I have to point this out...

You MUST take two separate teachings of Paul, very narrow passages, and marry them together. One passage comes from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians while the other comes from his first letter to the Church at Corinth. Without doing this, you have no rapture doctrine. Even doing it you have no Pre-Trib Timing or any return trip to heaven.

What gets me is you guys totally ignore that the same author, PAUL, is writing to the same audience, THE CHURCH OF THESSALONICA two different events in your mind. How on God's green earth could Paul be teaching in His first letter a Rapture of their church but then clarify in his second letter that the Lord won't return until the Man of Sin appears? Forgot for a moment that Paul totally calls the event of 1 Thes 4 "The Day of the Lord" just three verse later in 1 Thes 5. Same author, same audience, same event!! The same group cannot be given different outcomes unless that was stated. Paul makes no such distinction and in fact includes himself.

The other thing that gets me is this constant notion that the Tribulation includes all seals, trumpets and bowls and that all are the Wrath of God, which He would NEVER do to his church. First NOWHERE is the Great Tribulation defined by the seals, trumpets and bowls. It is defined in Mat 24:21-29 and it is all about deception of the false christ(s). We see clearly from the sixth seal that men on earth had time to go hide in caves from the coming Wrath of the Lamb, but the wrath of the Lamb was a future event that they had time to see coming. The sixth seal itself is NOT the WRATH OF THE LAMB. We know for a fact that the 5th trumpet is the work of Satan so that has nothing to do with God's Wrath. If we just read, we see that the Bowls are the wrath of God and they are poured out IN ONE DAY!!! Not in some prolonged period.

Then of course we have this, also from Paul in 2 Thes 1. This passage absolutely destroys all nonsense of this Pre-Trib additional return of Christ:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Who is being troubled (persecuted)? The Church
When will Christ repay those that persecute the Church? When He is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance.

Who is he taking vengeance upon? Those that DO NOT know GOD. Not those who do!!!!

And when do we get rest???? Does it say before in a pre-trib Rapture?? I don't think so.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,

The timing is clearly post Trib, just as Paul teaches and just as Jesus teaches. I rest my case.