More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

[PlainWord]

The church which is the bride of Christ is never subject to judgment. The church is never subjected to the wrath of God. What man in his right mind would allow his bride to be attacked until near death before he interceded for her? How can you expect Christ to do any less for His bride the church?

The tribulation and judgment of God is upon Israel who has refused to harken to their God. It is Israel for whom Christ returns at the close of the tribulation. Christ returns to Jerusalem not to any place else. It is Israel who looks up to see Him whom they have pierced.

Interesting that Christ comes down for Israel and the church goes up to meet Christ. Hmmmm.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Did you even bother to read the post you replied to????? I never said GOD is judging His People. I stated clearly that Christ comes AFTER the Tribulation. I stated clearly that the Great Tribulation is the Temptation of Satan attempting to deceive the world, including the Elect if it were possible, into thinking that Satan is Christ. But these aren't my words, they are Christ's words. Please read it again!

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Can you not see that Christ is speaking of Satanic deception and that if it were possible, even the Elect would be deceived? I know Satan is the Master Deceiver and the Father of all Lies, but man, it is written right here. Wow, Satan has so completely and utterly blinded you my friend. The truth is right here in black & white (this case RED) yet you cannot see what is plainly written and given to you. Sorry brother but this is so frustrating... I'm trying to get through to you (and others) but I guess the deception is just too strong.

Satan's days are shortened specifically for the Elect's sake. God allows His people to be tested by Satan. He allowed it with Job. He allowed it with His own Son. He will allow it for His believers in the end times. Then He will have his revenge. But we will ALL be tested who are here on earth and nobody is being raptured off to heaven. That my friend IS the Great Lie.

 

[Elin]

Didn't you just refer to "the complete overthrow of Gentile power and the establishment of Messiah's kingdom"?

Yes, that is what it meant to the Jews, but they were mistaken about prophecies concerning the Messiah, which is why they reject him to this day.

The Day of the Lord in the word of God means the same thing in both the OT and the NT, where it is not
an overthrow of Gentiles in the establishment of Messiah's kingdom, which is nowhere mentioned in the
NT didactics.

It means judgment, inaugurated in the events of Christ's second coming and completed in his judgment
of the world at the end of time.
The NT presents no other meaning.

These Old Testament-envisaged events are not the mission of the church now which is rather to proclaim the Gospel in anticipation of the coming of the Lord for His church (1 Thess. 4). The theme of reigning on the earth is taken up in Revelation.

Interpretation of Revelation is not certain, for others validly interpret it to mean things entirely different.

Nor is there anything in NT didactics about any future earthly kingdom.

The NT presents the church as the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11),
all ages are fulfilled with the church, there is no other earthly age to come.

If Paul knew of a future earthly age, he forgot to tell us about it.
And if Paul didn't know it, on what basis do we say that we know it?

 

[PlainWord]

The tribulation and judgment of God is upon Israel who has refused to harken to their God. It is Israel for whom Christ returns at the close of the tribulation. Christ returns to Jerusalem not to any place else. It is Israel who looks up to see Him whom they have pierced.

Wait a minute. Who pierced Christ again????? You said Israel. Can I make a suggestion?? Read the below.

John 19:34

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The Romans pierced Christ, not the Jews. Who are the Romans today? Who is the Harlot riding the Beast? Any idea? What is Babylon that will fall? God's people are specifically warned to come out of "her." Does this sound like Christ coming to punish Israel to you??

[SUP]Rev 18:

4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[Jackson123]

What then is the day of Christ?

The day of the Lord is reserved for Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How do you know the day of Christ reserved for Israel? can you give me a verse to back up you opinion?

This is the order that I know:

1. there will be global tribulation for 7 years. Christian always in tribulation all the time, not in the global tribulation but local tribulation. like some area of China, but not in America, may in Indonesia for some years, than stop, and move to other country. Tribulation identical with persecution.

2 than the rapture.

3 than wrath of God

[h=1]Matthew 24:29[/h]Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew 24:29.

[h=2]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/h]




Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."


This verse said

The coming of the Lord and our assembling to meet with Him (rapture) happen after man of sin (tribulation)

Revelation explain man of sin reveal during tribulation. ==> rapture after men of sin reveal ==> rapture happen after tribulation.

 

[Elin]

Yes Elin, but Satan is still here deceiving and the Great Tribulation is yet a future event. We are still in our physical bodies. So while the Kingdom of God is within His believers, this does not mean there is no millennial reign of Christ on earth. Clearly Christ returns and that
there will be a 1,000 year period where Satan is removed and the Lord reigns supreme on earth.

But why don't we find that expounded in Peter, James, John and Paul's letters?
Not a beep.

Did they forget to tell us about it?

Did they not know it?

If they didn't know it, on what basis do we know it?

What we do find is that the Church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11).
All is fulfilled in the Church, there is no other temporal age to come.

 

[Cobus]

Please identify the elect. Show me where any church is considered the elect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger there is only ONE CHURCh and all the memebr s of that church are the ELECT. No elect is outside that church and no unelect is part of that church.

God appointed Jesus to be theHEAD of that churchand God refer to that church as the Body of Christ. And to answer your question about teh Elect as Israel and gentile.... Still ONE church.

This one... Eph 5... That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The church is still made up from two flocks of Sheep, but with ONE master and Shepard... Christ Jesus.... The seven churches in Revelation is being made One Church that is why God make them known of their shortcomings, just as God do today. He said in John 17 that he will make them PERFECT in ONE.... ONE Roger ONE!

And the ELECT are all who Jesus prayed for in John 17... He did not pray for the world but the ONES GOD CHOSE AND ELECTED to be regenerated by His Son into His Son's Body, the ONE CHURCH OF GOD... WOW!

 

[notuptome]

Did you even bother to read the post you replied to????? I never said GOD is judging His People. I stated clearly that Christ comes AFTER the Tribulation. I stated clearly that the Great Tribulation is the Temptation of Satan attempting to deceive the world, including the Elect if it were possible, into thinking that Satan is Christ. But these aren't my words, they are Christ's words. Please read it again!

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Can you not see that Christ is speaking of Satanic deception and that if it were possible, even the Elect would be deceived? I know Satan is the Master Deceiver and the Father of all Lies, but man, it is written right here. Wow, Satan has so completely and utterly blinded you my friend. The truth is right here in black & white (this case RED) yet you cannot see what is plainly written and given to you. Sorry brother but this is so frustrating... I'm trying to get through to you (and others) but I guess the deception is just too strong.

Satan's days are shortened specifically for the Elect's sake. God allows His people to be tested by Satan. He allowed it with Job. He allowed it with His own Son. He will allow it for His believers in the end times. Then He will have his revenge. But we will ALL be tested who are here on earth and nobody is being raptured off to heaven. That my friend IS the Great Lie.

The elect in the prophecy listed is not the church. It is Israel. God will save Israel at the close of the tribulation. If it were not for Christ's arrival all of Israel would be wiped out. It is a physical saving of Israel because god elected them from among all the nations of the earth. They will see their Messiah whom they rejected the first time and all those who survive the tribulation will get saved.

The church is elect according to grace but not according to the promise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Wait a minute. Who pierced Christ again????? You said Israel. Can I make a suggestion?? Read the below.

John 19:34

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The Romans pierced Christ, not the Jews. Who are the Romans today? Who is the Harlot riding the Beast? Any idea? What is Babylon that will fall? God's people are specifically warned to come out of "her." Does this sound like Christ coming to punish Israel to you??

[SUP]Rev 18:

4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

I stand by what I said. It is Israel who sent Christ to the cross. The Romans only did what the law prevented Israel from doing themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

If you study closely you will find that the 'tribulation' is comprised of 2 different time periods - a period of judgments, followed by a period of wrath. God REPEATEDLY tells us we will see judgment, but not His wrath. It couldn't be clearer if He had put it on a wall calender.

And those who dismiss parts of the Bible as 'not for me/us' are going to be rudely surprised when they find out ALL of the Bible is meant for ALL of us. One should not be dismissive of ANY part of God's Word.

 

[notuptome]

If you study closely you will find that the 'tribulation' is comprised of 2 different time periods - a period of judgments, followed by a period of wrath. God REPEATEDLY tells us we will see judgment, but not His wrath. It couldn't be clearer if He had put it on a wall calender.

And those who dismiss parts of the Bible as 'not for me/us' are going to be rudely surprised when they find out ALL of the Bible is meant for ALL of us. One should not be dismissive of ANY part of God's Word.

Those who are in Christ have already been judged. Christ took my place in the judgment. I already entered a guilty plea and Christ received my deserved judgment. I received that which I did not deserve. I received His righteousness. 2 Cor 5:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

You have been judged regarding your salvation. You have yet to be judged according to your works. And the world has yet to be judged according to it's works. Don't be deceived. There's more to come.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

why did you left out, matthew 24:1-2? The whole context of matthew 24 start at vs 1.

Matthew 24:1-3

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The context from the very beginning is the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the end of the world. Therefore the events of the time of Jacob's trouble are being mentioned in this passage of Scripture because the time of Jacob's trouble (the tribulation period) is what takes place prior to the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So which event will happen first.
Matthew 24 or 1thes4?
And how do you relate matthew 24 to jacobs trouble of. Daniel 70th week.

The Rapture; mentioned in 1 Thess. 4 will happen first because the Body of Christ must be removed from off of the earth before the man of sin can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:7-8).


How do I relate Matthew 24 to the time of Jacob's trouble? Well that is simple watcher2013, because when one reads Matthew 24 in context, it is clear that the time of Jacob's trouble is what is being referenced as well as the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ:



Matthew 24:10-31

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand [SUP]16 [/SUP]then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: [SUP]17 [/SUP]let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18 [/SUP]neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]20[/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [SUP]21 [/SUP]for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30 [/SUP]and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[notuptome]

You have been judged regarding your salvation. You have yet to be judged according to your works. And the world has yet to be judged according to it's works. Don't be deceived. There's more to come.

True that my works will be tried in the fire at the judgment seat of Christ but I will not be judged. As to the world being judged, well it has been judged already and is going to receive that wrath of God which is treasured up against it. Just another reason why the church will be apart from the world when God's judgment passes upon the earth. Eventually that heavens and the earth will be destroyed and made new by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Thanks.

However, Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54, 11:24; 1Co 15:52 locate the resurrection of the church in 1Th 4:16
with the trumpet call of God, which Biblically is the summons to judgment (Hos 58-9, 8:1; Am 2:1-2;
Zep 1:15-17; see Ex 19:16-17)
and in the last day, which Biblically is Judgment Day.

Scripture locates the resurrection of the church at the Final Judgment.

The Rapture of the body of Christ is not located at the Final Judgment (Great White Throne Judgment).

For if it was, it would put the body of Christ into the Great Tribulation and that would cause a major contradiction to the Bible Doctrine of Eternal Security.

IN Daniel's 70th week, God's dealings is with Israel and not the Church.

I have looked up each of those Scriptures you listed. And the Old Testament passages you listed (Hos. 5:8-9; 8:1; Amos. 2:1-2; Zep. 1:15-17; and Ex. 19:16-17) are all Doctrinally pointed at the Nation of Israel. Not the Church.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Ro 8:19-21 locates the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) with the liberation of nature
from decay (new earth), which occurs after the ravages of the tribulation.

I just looked up Romans 8:19-21, and I don't see where it locates the revealing of the sons of God after the ravages of the tribulation.

Therefore, that has to be your private interpretation Elin.

So Scripture locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth.

In the above, Scripture locates the resurrection after the ravages of the tribulation and
at the final judgment, and also locates the rapture with that resurrection in 1Th 4:16-17.

So Scripture locates the rapture with the resurrection at the end of time.

That is incorrect Elin. The Rapture of the Body of Christ is not located at the end of time. You see Elin; your reasoning places the Judgment Seat of Christ and The Great White Throne Judgment together in the same period of time. And that cannot happen simply because we (Christians) must be judged first before the world is judged.

Paul tells born again Christians that they (and us also) that we shall judge the world (1 Cor. 6:2), he then goes on to tell us that we shall Judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3). So if that is the case; we must be judged first.

So the Rapture of the Body of Christ is not at the end of the world. But it is sometime before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.

1Th 5:2-6 parallels Mt 24:42-44 and Lk 21:34-36, which gospel accounts both refer to Jesus'
coming at the Judgment (Mt 24:30-31). Therefore, 1Th 5:2-6 locates the rapture at the Judgment.
(Mt 24 refers to the Second coming at the Final Judgment at the end of time.)

So Scripture locates the rapture at the Final Judgment.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


Elin; what Paul is saying here is that we (the Body of Christ) are the children of light, and are the children of the Day.

Also, the Day of the Lord which Paul is referring to is the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).

That is why he says "when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them." He goes on to further say: "and they shall not escape."

And the "they" and "them" that Paul refers to is not the Body of Christ; but rather it is the wicked; the lost world.

You see Elin; what you need to understand is that the Body of Christ is not appointed to God's wrath.

In context; what {aul is saying in 1 Thess. 5:3 is that the wicked shall not escape. They shall not escape the sudden destruction that comes upon them from the wrath of the LORD.

The context is very clear Elin.



Matthew 24:42-44 is not talking about the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

Matthew 24:42-44 is about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Luke 21:34-36 is also in reference to the Second Coming.




Therefore, 1 Thess. 5:2-6 does not at all locate the Rapture at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Read 1 Thess. 5 in context. Context clears things up.

Also, the Judgment of the Nations which takes place at Christ's Second Coming is not the Final Judgment. The Final Judgment takes place at the end of the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it takes place somewhere in outer space.

And if Rev 20:4-5 is literal, then it locates the first resurrection (20:4) after the tribulation of chps 6-19,
which precludes any resurrection before the tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-5 is literal. The resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-5 is a resurrection of tribulation martyrs. Not the Body of Christ.

So if Rev is literal, the first resurrection is after the tribulation.

So Scripture specifically locates the resurrection of the church at the end of time, at the Final Judgment,
and with the new earth.

Again Elin, your understanding here regarding the resurrection of the church is incorrect. Now Rev. 20 is indeed literal. That is not the issue here though. The issue is who is being resurrected at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble?

Furthermore, the First Resurrection is not just one resurrection, but it is a series of resurrections: Old Testament Saints with Christ at His Resurrection (Matt. 27:51-53) [Firstfruits]; then they that are Christ's at His coming (pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ) [Main Harvest]; and then the post. trib. rapture of the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) and other tribulation saints [Gleanings].

 

[RickyZ]

True that my works will be tried in the fire at the judgment seat of Christ but I will not be judged. As to the world being judged, well it has been judged already and is going to receive that wrath of God which is treasured up against it. Just another reason why the church will be apart from the world when God's judgment passes upon the earth. Eventually that heavens and the earth will be destroyed and made new by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Interesting. How are your works judged apart from you? That would be cool, but I don't see how you separate yourself from your works.

Paul described our judgment[4], where he says we will give an account of our lives to God and receive good or bad for our works. Paul explained to the Corinthians[5] that those who founded their faith in Jesus build upon that foundation by the works they do, whether good (represented by silver and gold) or bad (wood and straw). On the day of judgment these works will be tested by fire, and those whose work is not burnt up will be rewarded, while those whose work is burned away will suffer a loss. But they will be saved, as though "through the fire” Paul says.

[4] 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10-12


[5] 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

It is your passing 'thru the fire' that cleanses you of your bad works. You will be rewarded, you will suffer loss according to them. They are not separate

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/249-5-how-will-we-judged.html

 

[Elin]

However, Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54, 11:24; 1Co 15:52 locate the resurrection of the church in 1Th 4:16
with the trumpet call of God, which Biblically is the summons to judgment (Hos 58-9, 8:1; Am 2:1-2;
Zep 1:15-17; see Ex 19:16-17)
and in the last day, which Biblically is Judgment Day.

Scripture locates the resurrection of the church at the Final Judgment.

Ro 8:19-21 locates the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) with the liberation of nature
from decay (new earth), which occurs after the ravages of the tribulation.

So Scripture locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth.

In the above, Scripture locates the resurrection after the ravages of the tribulation and
at the final judgment, and also locates the rapture with that resurrection in 1Th 4:16-17.

So Scripture locates the rapture with the resurrection at the end of time.

I just looked up Romans 8:19-21, and I don't see where it locates the revealing of the sons of God after the ravages of the tribulation.

Therefore, that has to be your private interpretation Elin.

Look at them again.

The above Scriptures (not my priviate interpretation) locate the rapture with the resurrection,
which is located with the new heavens and new earth.
The new heavens and new earth would be after the ravages of the tribulation, and at the end of time.
rapture time = resurrection time = new earth time = necessarily after ravages of tribulation

That is incorrect Elin. The Rapture of the Body of Christ is not located at the end of time. You see Elin; your reasoning places the Judgment Seat of Christ and The Great White Throne Judgment together in the same period of time. And that cannot happen simply because we (Christians) must be judged first before the world is judged.

Paul tells born again Christians that they (and us also) that we shall judge the world (1 Cor. 6:2), he then goes on to tell us that we shall Judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3). So if that is the case; we must be judged first.

So the Rapture of the Body of Christ is not at the end of the world. But it is sometime before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Elin; what Paul is saying here is that we (the Body of Christ) are the children of light, and are the children of the Day.

Also, the Day of the Lord which Paul is referring to is the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).

That is why he says "when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them." He goes on to further say: "and they shall not escape."

And the "they" and "them" that Paul refers to is not the Body of Christ; but rather it is the wicked; the lost world.

You see Elin; what you need to understand is that the Body of Christ is not appointed to God's wrath.

In context; what {aul is saying in 1 Thess. 5:3 is that the wicked shall not escape. They shall not escape the sudden destruction that comes upon them from the wrath of the LORD.

The context is very clear Elin.

Matthew 24:42-44 is not talking about the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

Matthew 24:42-44 is about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Luke 21:34-36 is also in reference to the Second Coming.

Therefore, 1 Thess. 5:2-6 does not at all locate the Rapture at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Read 1 Thess. 5 in context. Context clears things up.

Also, the Judgment of the Nations which takes place at Christ's Second Coming is not the Final Judgment. The Final Judgment takes place at the end of the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it takes place somewhere in outer space.

Revelation 20:4-5 is literal. The resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-5 is a resurrection of tribulation martyrs. Not the Body of Christ.

Again Elin, your understanding here regarding the resurrection of the church is incorrect. Now Rev. 20 is indeed literal. That is not the issue here though. The issue is who is being resurrected at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble?

Furthermore, the First Resurrection is not just one resurrection, but it is a series of resurrections: Old Testament Saints with Christ at His Resurrection (Matt. 27:51-53) [Firstfruits]; then they that are Christ's at His coming (pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ) [Main Harvest]; and then the post. trib. rapture of the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) and other tribulation saints [Gleanings].

There are many assumptions above which have no basis in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

Why do Peter, James, John and Paul not expound on a future temporal earthly kingdom in their letters?

Did they forget to tell us about it?

Or did they not know it? And if they did not know it, on what basis do we know it?

I really need to see a future temporal earthly kingdom presented in the letters of Peter, James,
John and Paul for it to be true.

 

[faroukfarouk]

There is more than one resurrection.

 

[Elin]

There is more than one resurrection.

Do you find more than one bodily resurrection in the letters of Peter, James, John or Paul?

 

[faroukfarouk]

John 5.29.....