More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.
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Creation's freedom from bondage to decay occurs at the end of time with the resurrection (Ro 8:19-21),
the rapture occurs with the resurrection (1Th 4:16-1) which is at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21).
The NT specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
Uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles does not overcome certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
the rapture occurs with the resurrection (1Th 4:16-1) which is at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21).
The NT specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
Uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles does not overcome certain and unequivocal NT teaching.
Just to be picky, I would substitute "end of this age" for "end of time". The resurrection and rapture (picture the rapture as the resurrection of the living) pre-occur the millenium, which is timed. It's not until the end of that and the creation of the new earth and heavens that we escape time.
Sorry for the tangent
And that's a quoteable saying! I'm going to store it away for future use.
Sorry for the tangent
And that's a quoteable saying! I'm going to store it away for future use.
There is one bodily resurrection to eternity of all mankind when creation is liberated from decay
at the new earth (Ro 8:19-21) at the end of time, of which Jesus is the firstfruit.
There is no other bodily resurrection after the new earth.
At the end of time, the righteous will rise to receive glory, and the wicked will rise to receive condemnation.
at the new earth (Ro 8:19-21) at the end of time, of which Jesus is the firstfruit.
There is no other bodily resurrection after the new earth.
At the end of time, the righteous will rise to receive glory, and the wicked will rise to receive condemnation.
Do they mean the same thing?
You didn't examine those Scriptures above, did you?
First of all, the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11).
There is no other age to come, it is the end of all ages.
Therefore, it is the end of time.
The resurrection is located with the creation's freedom from bondage to decay (Ro 8:19-21).
That's the new earth, at the end of time.
The new earth is eternity, for there will be no death (Rev 21:1, 4).
The resurrection of all mankind is located at the end of time.
There is no other resurrection after the end of time.
The resurrection (redemption of our bodies) occurs with the new earth (creation's liberation
from decay) in Ro 8:19-21, where there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4) which is the end of time.
And the resurrection (redemption of our bodies) is located with the new earth (liberation of creation
from decay) in Ro 8:19-21, where there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4), which makes it the end of time.
And there is no other resurrection after the new earth in eternity.
There is only one resurrection of all mankind, at the end of time.
The NT specifically presents one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind at the end of time
with the new earth.
You didn't examine those Scriptures above, did you?
First of all, the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11).
There is no other age to come, it is the end of all ages.
Therefore, it is the end of time.
The resurrection is located with the creation's freedom from bondage to decay (Ro 8:19-21).
That's the new earth, at the end of time.
The new earth is eternity, for there will be no death (Rev 21:1, 4).
The resurrection of all mankind is located at the end of time.
There is no other resurrection after the end of time.
The resurrection (redemption of our bodies) occurs with the new earth (creation's liberation
from decay) in Ro 8:19-21, where there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4) which is the end of time.
And the resurrection (redemption of our bodies) is located with the new earth (liberation of creation
from decay) in Ro 8:19-21, where there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4), which makes it the end of time.
And there is no other resurrection after the new earth in eternity.
There is only one resurrection of all mankind, at the end of time.
The NT specifically presents one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind at the end of time
with the new earth.
Sorry for the tangent
And that's a quoteable saying! I'm going to store it away for future use.
And that's a quoteable saying! I'm going to store it away for future use.
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You are making some false assumptions Brother Roger. First, God's Terrible Wrath does not occur during the Great Tribulation, it occurs after. You also assume Jesus collects His bride the Church before the Tribulation. Show me the verse where this is taught. You know what the say about ASSUME? Please don't assume things and stick to the scripture. Everything is taught.
Yes, most of Israel is still awaiting the Messiah for the first time. They along with those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture will likely both be deceived.
Yes, most of Israel is still awaiting the Messiah for the first time. They along with those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture will likely both be deceived.
Yeah, we agree. For more proof that what you say is correct, see also John Chapter 6.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and also John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother (Lazarus) will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
There is only ONE LAST DAY Brother Roger. The Last Day is not some supposed Pre-Trib Rapture nor is it after the Tribulation. It is the final day of the old earth.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and also John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother (Lazarus) will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
There is only ONE LAST DAY Brother Roger. The Last Day is not some supposed Pre-Trib Rapture nor is it after the Tribulation. It is the final day of the old earth.
Sarah, it seems that your post got passed on in the shuffle and midst of the other responses to this important thread.
Now having read your post; I see what you got right and I also see what you got wrong.
The time of Jacob's trouble is to bring unbelieving Israel into correction. That part you got right.
Now where you are having a misunderstanding is in your failure to distinguish Israel from the Church (Body of Christ).
We who are the Body of Christ are not Israel.
The 7 year period is the time for Jacob's (Israel's) trouble.
And it is NOT the Church's trouble.
The New Testament teaches clearly that the Body of Christ; which also is the Bride of Christ is NOT appointed to wrath. And the time of Jacob's trouble is basically about the wrath of the Lamb. Who is the Lamb? It is the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is why the teaching that the Body of Christ will have to go through the time where God's wrath is being poured out upon the Earth is illogical and it does not make any sense.
ChosenbyHim, Faroukfarouk, Coban
I find myself in agreement with so much that you say in this thread, and wish you were here with me so that we could talk this through around the Word of God.
For the resurrection you are calling 'The Rapture', although made known through Paul, to the saints at Thessalonica, was not the hope He would ultimately strive for, revealed in Philippians. There was no doubt expressed by him in regard to his attaining the former, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one to whom the return of Christ could have been imminent, should Israel have repented; but there was in his attaining to the latter, as one who ran the race set before him, and for which 'faithfulness' was a vital ingredient, and to whom the mystery of Eph. had subsequently been made known.
Also, please consider, that the Church, made known by revelation to Paul as 'the Lord's prisoner', and proclaimed by Him in Eph, Col. Phil. 2Tim and Titus, was still 'hid in God' at the time that 2 Thessalonians was written.
The hope of the Church which is His body, is to 'appear' with Him in glory, when He is manifested, we will be manifested with Him, the truth of which is made known in Colossians.
There is still a work of rightly dividing to be done in regard to your understanding of the subject of this thread, I feel.
With love to all three of you in Christ Jesus.
Chris
PS please forgive the absence of references.
I am using a kindle, and am limited at the moment.
Please considee these things
Thank you.
I find myself in agreement with so much that you say in this thread, and wish you were here with me so that we could talk this through around the Word of God.
For the resurrection you are calling 'The Rapture', although made known through Paul, to the saints at Thessalonica, was not the hope He would ultimately strive for, revealed in Philippians. There was no doubt expressed by him in regard to his attaining the former, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one to whom the return of Christ could have been imminent, should Israel have repented; but there was in his attaining to the latter, as one who ran the race set before him, and for which 'faithfulness' was a vital ingredient, and to whom the mystery of Eph. had subsequently been made known.
Also, please consider, that the Church, made known by revelation to Paul as 'the Lord's prisoner', and proclaimed by Him in Eph, Col. Phil. 2Tim and Titus, was still 'hid in God' at the time that 2 Thessalonians was written.
The hope of the Church which is His body, is to 'appear' with Him in glory, when He is manifested, we will be manifested with Him, the truth of which is made known in Colossians.
There is still a work of rightly dividing to be done in regard to your understanding of the subject of this thread, I feel.
With love to all three of you in Christ Jesus.
Chris
PS please forgive the absence of references.
I am using a kindle, and am limited at the moment.
Please considee these things
Thank you.
ChosenbyHim, Faroukfarouk, Coban
I find myself in agreement with so much that you say in this thread, and wish you were here with me so that we could talk this through around the Word of God.
For the resurrection you are calling 'The Rapture', although made known through Paul, to the saints at Thessalonica, was not the hope He would ultimately strive for, revealed in Philippians. There was no doubt expressed by him in regard to his attaining the former, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one to whom the return of Christ could have been imminent, should Israel have repented; but there was in his attaining to the latter, as one who ran the race set before him, and for which 'faithfulness' was a vital ingredient, and to whom the mystery of Eph. had subsequently been made known.
Also, please consider, that the Church, made known by revelation to Paul as 'the Lord's prisoner', and proclaimed by Him in Eph, Col. Phil. 2Tim and Titus, was still 'hid in God' at the time that 2 Thessalonians was written.
The hope of the Church which is His body, is to 'appear' with Him in glory, when He is manifested, we will be manifested with Him, the truth of which is made known in Colossians.
There is still a work of rightly dividing to be done in regard to your understanding of the subject of this thread, I feel.
With love to all three of you in Christ Jesus.
Chris
PS please forgive the absence of references.
I am using a kindle, and am limited at the moment.
Please considee these things
Thank you.
I find myself in agreement with so much that you say in this thread, and wish you were here with me so that we could talk this through around the Word of God.
For the resurrection you are calling 'The Rapture', although made known through Paul, to the saints at Thessalonica, was not the hope He would ultimately strive for, revealed in Philippians. There was no doubt expressed by him in regard to his attaining the former, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and one to whom the return of Christ could have been imminent, should Israel have repented; but there was in his attaining to the latter, as one who ran the race set before him, and for which 'faithfulness' was a vital ingredient, and to whom the mystery of Eph. had subsequently been made known.
Also, please consider, that the Church, made known by revelation to Paul as 'the Lord's prisoner', and proclaimed by Him in Eph, Col. Phil. 2Tim and Titus, was still 'hid in God' at the time that 2 Thessalonians was written.
The hope of the Church which is His body, is to 'appear' with Him in glory, when He is manifested, we will be manifested with Him, the truth of which is made known in Colossians.
There is still a work of rightly dividing to be done in regard to your understanding of the subject of this thread, I feel.
With love to all three of you in Christ Jesus.
Chris
PS please forgive the absence of references.
I am using a kindle, and am limited at the moment.
Please considee these things
Thank you.
Did not say anything about the new earth. Mat 27:52-53 indicates that there was a resurrection of the saints who slept when the veil of the temple was rent in twain.
This little fact was likely a concern for the saints in Thessalonica which prompted the Holy Spirit to teach of the coming of the Lord for His church in the clouds. Comforting words.
Those who have a part in the resurrection before the GWT are all condemned. The saints are resurrected before the GWT.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
This little fact was likely a concern for the saints in Thessalonica which prompted the Holy Spirit to teach of the coming of the Lord for His church in the clouds. Comforting words.
Those who have a part in the resurrection before the GWT are all condemned. The saints are resurrected before the GWT.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The tribulation time is a time of Gods wrath upon the earth such as was never seen before. Thessalonians teaches that we the church are not appointed unto wrath. At the GWT judgment the church is behind the throne not in front of it. Only the condemned stand before the GWT. After which all these are cast into the lake of fire.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Uhm, and the millenial rule of Christ? Maybe I missed it but you seem to be forgetting that this occurs for 1,000 years (a period of TIME) before the final judgment and the creation of the new earth and heavens. When this creation passes, THAT will be the end of time. Check Gods wall calender (Rev 20), it's very clearly delineated.
And you base this statement above in red from what passage dear brother?
Let me show you something from Jesus' own mouth.
Mat 24:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (Notice the Elect are still on earth!!) those days shall be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Again notice the Elect are still on earth!!)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
Do you see ANY reference to the Lord's wrath in any of the above events contained between the start and end of the Tribulation?
The Lord Himself tells when the start and end of the Tribulation occurs and He describes events which occur during the Great Tribulation. If you simply READ, you will see that the Tribulation period is all about Satan's deception and has NOTHING to do with God's wrath!! This is where you, Brother Chosen and a whole host of other good Christians get confused.
God's wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is so very important to understand. If you (and others) can't grasp this simple concept you are going to be in a world of hurt. The Bible is crystal clear about this. Now please turn to
Rev 6:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Compare Mat 24:29 to the above. The Tribulation is over at Mat 24:29. This is when the Lord returns and this is when He pours out His wrath. This passage from Rev 6 could be put chronologically in order following Mat 24:29.
Don't let the imagery in Revelation throw you. The whole book is spiritual. The events are spiritual. The seals, trumpets and bowls are largely spiritual. If you try to see everything in the physical world you may as well give up now. I'm just trying to help, not put you down.
Let me show you something from Jesus' own mouth.
Mat 24:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (Notice the Elect are still on earth!!) those days shall be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Again notice the Elect are still on earth!!)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
Do you see ANY reference to the Lord's wrath in any of the above events contained between the start and end of the Tribulation?
The Lord Himself tells when the start and end of the Tribulation occurs and He describes events which occur during the Great Tribulation. If you simply READ, you will see that the Tribulation period is all about Satan's deception and has NOTHING to do with God's wrath!! This is where you, Brother Chosen and a whole host of other good Christians get confused.
God's wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is so very important to understand. If you (and others) can't grasp this simple concept you are going to be in a world of hurt. The Bible is crystal clear about this. Now please turn to
Rev 6:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Compare Mat 24:29 to the above. The Tribulation is over at Mat 24:29. This is when the Lord returns and this is when He pours out His wrath. This passage from Rev 6 could be put chronologically in order following Mat 24:29.
Don't let the imagery in Revelation throw you. The whole book is spiritual. The events are spiritual. The seals, trumpets and bowls are largely spiritual. If you try to see everything in the physical world you may as well give up now. I'm just trying to help, not put you down.
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Isaiah 26 pretty much proves there is no rapture. If there was a Pre-Trib Rapture, there would be no reason to hide in our chambers, we would be in the Lord's chambers.
Isaiah 26:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isaiah 26:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.