Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?

[michael56]

]Use your brains for a second and think about this[/B]:

how do you know what sin is?

.

You won't learn spiritual truth by relying on your brain. However to address the question
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

Heb 10:16&17

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20

The above should be unarguable, but.........

 

[michael56]

Friend it is not legalism to teach the law, in that you are mistaken.

Legalism is trying to keep the law to be saved in your own power/works.

I have n past times tried this and can testify that it does not work, you end up deeper in sin.

But rather faith in the promises of God, love in the heart brings the fruit of true obedience.

See there are two extremes.

legalist which tries in its own power to keep the law to be saved.

The cheap grace who reduces Grace to only words with no true power.

Then there is those who by Faith accept the Grace of God and are transformed into new creatures by faith and keeping the law is simply the fruit of the love of God in the heart by the spirit.

Jesus came to save from sin, not in sin.

It is not legalism to keep the law as a result not of works but of Grace and Faith in Gods promises.

I will tell you this, I do not know what it is like any more to constantly fall for the same sin over and over. In this I do not boast except in Jesus Christ who is the one who does it in me.

I do not mean I am perfect although in Christ I am. I do not mean I never ever sin yet in Christ I am seen as such.

But I do not struggle as I used to with the same sins over and over. since understanding what Jesus has promised and done for us, I have found a power that transformed the way I think and act.

though I may not yet have attained I do forget those things which are past and press forward to the high calling we have in Jesus. I know that He who has begun a good work will finish it.

I have much growth to go and much to learn. but I testify that there is power in the blood.

Why can people not just accept as the law is placed on your mind and written on your heart under the new covenant as it wasn't under the old(Doug Bachelor believes this) it is plain you would not have to read the literal words of the ten commandments to know how God wants you to live. It is so obvious that must be the case. So what is the problem? It sems ironic to me, that those who most insist Christ's teaching/commands are followed as well as OT law find it the hardest to actually follow the heart of what matters.
It appears a fleshy thing to me.
''I must read the literal letter of commandments to be holy. I, by my own effort must strive to obey to live an ever holier life. And if you follow me you will become as holy as I am.''

That's how it comes across to me

 

[gotime]

So according to you Jesus did not give us a NEW commandment? That it was already given.
i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, i understand the old Covenant just fine. Strangers were accepted into the Jewish communities, there are even instructions how outside strangers that were accepted into the Jewish communities were to be treated.
Tell me are you teaching that the old covenant taught to love your enemies?
Are you saying anywhere in the old covenant, that they were taught to LOVE gentiles (outsiders)
You give verses of strangers that were accepted into the Jewish communities, that they were to love them, that has nothing to do with LOVE ONE ANOTHER, that is LOVE EVERYONE, even your enemies. This teaching was not, nor ever was in the old covenant, under the old covenant, you could kill your enemies, under the old covenant God commanded the Jews to kill people. This is not LOVING ONE ANOTHER. You do error in thinking the old covenant taught to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, because it did no such thing, it only taught to love your nation, to love your own neighbor, to love the stranger that you accepted into your community. it does not teach to love your enemies, to love the gentiles, to LOVE THE ROMANS. you do error thinking that it did, and if you do think that, who is the one that does not understand the old covenant, which taught it was OK to hate your enemies. Read many things David wrote about his enemies, being under the old covenant, he wanted God to kill them, to destroy them, this is not LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Jesus under the new covenant, taught us a NEW Commandment, to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, even as He loved us. And by not adding the second part does not change the first part in the slightest as you seem to suggest above, by saying i only half quoted the verse. The second half does not change the first half. We are commanded to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, the second half tells us HOW we are to do the first part, HOW to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Are you saying from another post, that you are a preacher of a church?

^i^ Responding to post #173

First stranger refers to Gentiles. but you can not find a single command to hate the enemy in the Old Testament. Di God have Israel destroy nations? Yes because they had come too deep into sin to be saved. That is why some nations God said to leave alone because they had not filled the cup of iniquity up yet, In other words they were not beyond salvation yet.

But make no mistake it was God who told them to do that, are you suggesting that God hated them? There are texts that show that God expected to love the enemy:

Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

Job 31:29 If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Job 31:30 Neither have I suffered my mouth to sin by wishing a curse to his soul.

Even Job understood it to be sin to rejoice in the misfortune of those who hate you.

David understood that it was wrong to treat even the enemy badly without cause,

Psa 7:3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands;
Psa 7:4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy
Psa 7:5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

notice how David reacts to those who do evil to him when misfortune comes upon them:

Psa 35:11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
Psa 35:12 They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul.
Psa 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.
Psa 35:14 I behaved myself as though he had been my friend or brother: I bowed down heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother.

David mourned and prayed for them as if they were His friend, is that not love for your enemies?

Think about how David treated Saul though Saul sought His life, when Saul was at David mercy David only cut His clothing and that was enough for David to feel remorse that he had done such to Saul His enemy.

Anyway there are many stories and places where the Idea of Love for your enemy is taught.

But no I was not saying that Jesus commandment was not new, it was new but the new part was not to love but rather to love as He had exemplified it. This commandment could not have been older than Jesus because He had not lived as a man to exemplify it before His life on earth.

Take not Matthew, Jesus is not changing any of the law but rather speaking against the teachers of the law who distorted the law.

 

[michael56]

Help me to understand, you say your church preaches the law does not mean they follow it legalistically. So you preach the law to do what? to do them or not do them? Tell me, how does your church preach the law? give me an example of what law it preaches.
Those who are legalistic preach Do's and Don'ts, you can do this, you can't do that, you can do this though, you can't do that. Does your church teach "Do the 10 commandments" or not?

^i^ Responding to post # 178

The sda church preaches they are the true church of the new testament
You must tithe your money
You must observe the fourth commandment today
You must avoid ''unclean foods''
You must be baptised in water.

There are disagreements within the sda church as to whether the law is written on your mind and placed on your heart at the point of conversion by the Spirit. There are also varying views as to what this means for those who do believe it.
If you want a full list of official beliefs(main doctrine) you can google it. All bar one point of their main tenets of faith would agree I imagine with most other denominations. The above I have mentioned are recited at water baptism

 

[michael56]

Actually I have found an SDA church service to be remarkably similar to the service at the Pentecostal church of my youth in structure. Also in inference of much core teaching. There are the obvious few differences. IE the Pentecostal church would see the gifts of the Holy Spirit today differently from the sda. The sda believes you must worship on a Saturday, and avoid clean/unclean foods. But once that is taken away I don't see much difference in the services at all. Or the type of people that attend them

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Why can people not just accept as the law is placed on your mind and written on your heart under the new covenant as it wasn't under the old(Doug Bachelor believes this) it is plain you would not have to read the literal words of the ten commandments to know how God wants you to live. It is so obvious that must be the case. So what is the problem? It sems ironic to me, that those who most insist Christ's teaching/commands are followed as well as OT law find it the hardest to actually follow the heart of what matters.
It appears a fleshy thing to me.
''I must read the literal letter of commandments to be holy. I, by my own effort must strive to obey to live an ever holier life. And if you follow me you will become as holy as I am.''

That's how it comes across to me

The law is flesh, of the physical, not spirit. It should have school-mastered the Jews to graduate to Jesus, who is of the spiritual covenant.

They are not allowed to consider concepts that Ellen White, their infallible interpreter, taught and still fills their minds. I've unwittingly hired SDAs to our alarm. We had to stop praying as a team at work because that would defile them, Sunday worshipers being anathema to them. They all claimed, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, we pray to a false Jesus, not the true Jesus. We can't go ahead and do our choice because it would be sin for me to offend them directly, so there was no prayer. Now everybody starts off temporary, part time until we get to know folks. Now I ask casually what church an applicant attends. If they won't tell, then I know without an answer they won't be comfortable with us. Too bad that, usually hard workers, accountable, on time, honest, but too nervous around non-SDAs, making others uncomfortable.

 

[Mitspa]

Actually I have found an SDA church service to be remarkably similar to the service at the Pentecostal church of my youth in structure. Also in inference of much core teaching. There are the obvious few differences. IE the Pentecostal church would see the gifts of the Holy Spirit today differently from the sda. The sda believes you must worship on a Saturday, and avoid clean/unclean foods. But once that is taken away I don't see much difference in the services at all. Or the type of people that attend them

I suggest you do a little more study of what these guys really believe about who Jesus is...because like the Mormons they can say one thing but really mean something else...Their roots are the same as the Jehovas witnesses...they in effect deny Christ as God and His finished work upon the Cross.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Actually I have found an SDA church service to be remarkably similar to the service at the Pentecostal church of my youth in structure. Also in inference of much core teaching. There are the obvious few differences. IE the Pentecostal church would see the gifts of the Holy Spirit today differently from the sda. The sda believes you must worship on a Saturday, and avoid clean/unclean foods. But once that is taken away I don't see much difference in the services at all. Or the type of people that attend them

I've never been in their service, but I've learned a lot about SDA. There are two groups of them, the orthodox and the reformed. You probably know of the latter. It might be they will be the ones that will come around like the former World Wide Church of God (Armstrongism) cult has made a big turn around such as to be accepted by the National Assoc. of Evangelicals. The older members are still perplexed, but have faith the leadership is doing the right thing.

SDA "Investigative judgment", a heretical doctrine, has all the sins stored in heaven.
SDA The founders denied the trinity and deity of Christ, modified somewhat today.
SDA agrees the Bible is closed canon, but Ellen G. White's writings have divine authority equal to apostle and prophet.
SDA belief Sunday worshipers have received the mark of the Beast, the judgment of Christ already underway since 1884.
SDA Mixing law and grace..... must keep all commandments, old and new, making what God intended to be spiritual to focus on the physical, making the law a matter of physical flesh works in opposition to teachings of the apostles.
On and on it goes.

The official doctrines are not detailed enough online to find all their heresies. They bring their books, not a Bible, to read their rules trying to convert folks, but refuse to discuss the Bible for fear of getting into questions about Paul's teachings about no more holy days, no problem with diet other than blood, etc. That's been our experience many years.

The ones we worked with all left due to disgust of being surrounded by us Sunday beast worshipers, closing on Sundays (a regular work day for them, so they couldn't get in full hours), and from rejection by most clients.

Research it. Very interesting.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I suggest you do a little more study of what these guys really believe about who Jesus is...because like the Mormons they can say one thing but really mean something else...Their roots are the same as the Jehovas witnesses...they in effect deny Christ as God and His finished work upon the Cross.

I just read that. Jesus' work of propitiation is to them yet to be completed, after he reviews all the confessed and unconfessed sins now said to be stored up in heaven, defiling it!

 

[DiscipleDave]

Seventh Day Adventist I beleive

Oh, thanks, did not know that.

^i^

 

[keeth]

The law is flesh, of the physical, not spirit. It should have school-mastered the Jews to graduate to Jesus, who is of the spiritual covenant.

Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[keeth]

I suggest you do a little more study of what these guys really believe about who Jesus is...because like the Mormons they can say one thing but really mean something else...Their roots are the same as the Jehovas witnesses...they in effect deny Christ as God and His finished work upon the Cross.

You are a liar, and unless you repent you will die for lying about me and many others. You cannot bear this false witness and maintain the same, and enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ is God, His sacrifice is finished but His ministry as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary is not.

 

[keeth]

I've never been in their service, but I've learned a lot about SDA. There are two groups of them, the orthodox and the reformed. You probably know of the latter. It might be they will be the ones that will come around like the former World Wide Church of God (Armstrongism) cult has made a big turn around such as to be accepted by the National Assoc. of Evangelicals. The older members are still perplexed, but have faith the leadership is doing the right thing.

SDA "Investigative judgment", a heretical doctrine, has all the sins stored in heaven.
SDA The founders denied the trinity and deity of Christ, modified somewhat today.
SDA agrees the Bible is closed canon, but Ellen G. White's writings have divine authority equal to apostle and prophet.
SDA belief Sunday worshipers have received the mark of the Beast, the judgment of Christ already underway since 1884.
SDA Mixing law and grace..... must keep all commandments, old and new, making what God intended to be spiritual to focus on the physical, making the law a matter of physical flesh works in opposition to teachings of the apostles.
On and on it goes.

The official doctrines are not detailed enough online to find all their heresies. They bring their books, not a Bible, to read their rules trying to convert folks, but refuse to discuss the Bible for fear of getting into questions about Paul's teachings about no more holy days, no problem with diet other than blood, etc. That's been our experience many years.

The ones we worked with all left due to disgust of being surrounded by us Sunday beast worshipers, closing on Sundays (a regular work day for them, so they couldn't get in full hours), and from rejection by most clients.

Research it. Very interesting.

You are also a liar, and unless you repent, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You are a liar, and unless you repent you will die for lying about me and many others. You cannot bear this false witness and maintain the same, and enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ is God, His sacrifice is finished but His ministry as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary is not.

You are also a liar, and unless you repent, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mitspa and Word_Swordsman are both very wise people who have done their research on this topic and are attempting to educate yourself.. instead of calling them liars, why don't you do your own research and see if they're right or wrong in what they claim?

 

[gotime]

Why can people not just accept as the law is placed on your mind and written on your heart under the new covenant as it wasn't under the old(Doug Bachelor believes this) it is plain you would not have to read the literal words of the ten commandments to know how God wants you to live. It is so obvious that must be the case. So what is the problem? It sems ironic to me, that those who most insist Christ's teaching/commands are followed as well as OT law find it the hardest to actually follow the heart of what matters.
It appears a fleshy thing to me.
''I must read the literal letter of commandments to be holy. I, by my own effort must strive to obey to live an ever holier life. And if you follow me you will become as holy as I am.''

That's how it comes across to me

To be honest I can see why you think that, maybe one of the most frustrating things from my point of view is how to get people to understand our true point of view.

Let me explain our dilemma,

We believe that the law is still to be kept.
We do not believe that legalism saves nor does keeping the law the way it was meant to be kept.
we believe that keeping the law is the result of salvation through Christ.

Let my try and explain, Sin separated me from my God, I was born this way.

When the law came I saw my sin clearly and my inability to keep it. O wrtched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I realized I needed mercy from the great law giver/Jesus Christ.

The bible spoke of the messiah to come in the Old Testament, and in the new I see Christ and Him Crucified paying for my sins. My heart leaps for Joy I see a way out in Jesus, a way out of my hopeless condition.

But here is a problem, I need more than forgiveness it is not enough to have my sins wiped away, because as soon as they are wiped I added new ones to the slate and needed to confess again and again.

Remember sin separates us from God. So I came to realize that I needed more than forgiveness, I needed as Savior who would not only pay for my sin but would empower me to cease from doing that which separates us. For how could I ever have hope of a future in the presence of a Holy God while sin is part of my life?

This I also found in Jesus, He is a complete savior from sin, I found that by accepting His death I could also partake of His life, His resurrected life. Jesus empowered me to overcome my sins and transformed me by His love.

Guess what changed? I began to look at the law and not see myself as breaking it anymore, why? what had changed? Had I worked harder?

No, not by works but by Grace through faith Jesus changed my heart and is still changing it. There is truly power in the blood and the life of our Saviour.

See I used to try keep the law and kept failing and I only tried to keep it to be saved but I did not like it.

But now through Jesus love I suddenly found a power that causes me to keep it and loves to do so, it is my greatest Joy because it is the evidence of things not seen. it is the power of a risen savior. Jesus my Lord.

Jesus did not just forgive me He saved and is saving me. Do I still need Jesus? Yes every moment, I can only keep them while He is in me. When I take my eyes off Him I sink into sin just as Peter sank into the water. I need Him every hour every second of the day.

You know which part of the law I love the most?

Its the Sabbath, I love them all but the Sabbath more than any other shows the love and character of our God. It says something about God that all the other 9 do not.

I don't keep the Sabbath because the 4th commandment says so. indeed the law simply points out sin when we break it.

So the law only served to show me that when I was not keeping it I was sinning.

But now that Grace through Faith has come through Jesus, I love to keep it, I can't help but keep it. Something in me compels me to keep it. and I delight in it like you would not believe.

It is not a chore it is a blessing above earthly understanding.

See when I was a slave to sin I broke the law which is good Holy and Just.

But now in Jesus I am free and that is why I am able to keep the law.

it is only slaves who can not keep it. My Jesus did not die to leave me a slave and I know that by experience now.

Let me tell you from my perspective what it seems to me when you say I am a legalist or that I am wrong to keep the law.

I hear you saying, have less faith. don't hope for so much in Jesus. God has not freed you yet. Jesus blood was not enough.

I know you don't mean those things but that is how it comes across.

You say that its works, but I say its Faith, I can say no other. For it was faith in Jesus that changed my heart, it is constant trust in Him that produces the fruit of obedience in my life.

I do not strive at the law, I don't need to anymore, Christ is in my and the life I live is none but Him in me through faith.

so Yes I teach to keep the law, because in it is the freedom of Jesus. when I was a slave to sin I could not keep it because sin is breaking it and I was a slave to it.

But now I am free from sin/breaking the law, the natural result of the Spirit in me is keeping it. as the sinful heart does not and cannot so the new heart can and does.

So when you tell me to stop preaching the law know that I can not stop and will not stop, because Christ is the law and when He is in me the law is fulfilled perfectly by His Grace through faith/trusting Him.

I do not preach salvation by law keeping.

I do preach salvation from law breaking in Jesus.

or in other words:

I do not preach salvation by righteousness.

I do preach salvation from sin in Jesus

hope that helps, blessings.

 

[Mitspa]

You are a liar, and unless you repent you will die for lying about me and many others. You cannot bear this false witness and maintain the same, and enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ is God, His sacrifice is finished but His ministry as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary is not.

Lets see?

William Miller (1782-1849) developed millennialist convictions, convinced that Jesus' second (and invisible) return would be in 1843. That was revised to 1844. They kept their hopes going beyond that date due to interpreting the parable of the wise and foolish virgins a certain way ('the bridegroom tarried'). It was a small minority amongst Miller's following who formed the group that was to become the SDA Church. They maintained that the prophecy had, indeed, been fulfilled in 1843 as initially calculated. They said the 'investigative judement' began then and that the second coming would occur at the completion of the judgement - a date not indicated in Scripture. Due to ridicule they experienced from fellow Christians in their old denominations, they began to regard Protestantism as part of Babylon the Great, and the call to come out of Babylon added a new dimension to their missionary proclamation.

Already, those who know JW doctrine will see crucial similarities in belief here. By the time Charles Russell started his Bible study groups, there were already three main types of millennialism in evidence; postmillennialism, futurist premillennialism based on dispensationalism, and historicist premillennialism (as with the Adventists). Russell first heard Second Adventist preaching at a meeting in 1870 via Jonas Wendell. There were many variations expounded by then, so Russell can hardly be credited with coming up with anything new! What he did was to modify existing beliefs and interpretations of prophecy. Russell acknowledged his indebtedness to J.A. Bengal, and especially to William Miller (Thy Kingdom Come p84 & 86). Russell's first volume of Studies in the Scriptures is a reworking of a modified dispensationalism expounded by Russell's early associate, Nelson H. Barbour, a former associate of Miller, in his book, Three Worlds and the Harvest of This World. Although that book was written entirely by Barbour, its title page bears Russell's name as co-author.

 

[Mitspa]

If you look back at the roots of these groups and the core errors of their doctrine, you will see the same errors are in these groups...the JW...SDA..and the LDS

Along with the idea that some prophet or group of prophets have to tell them what the bible really says....

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:14 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

That should be taken in context at least within that verse. Paul was naturally carnal before Christ, bound to sin by the law. He was of the flesh without Christ in him

The word translated "spiritual" is from Greek "pneunmatikos" whci means generally "non-carnal" as well as "spiritual", which
is used in several rendering of English "spiritual", like in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The people Paul was teaching were believers already, though not yet able to discern the meat of spiritual words, still on "baby food".

 

[Word_Swordsman]

1 John 4:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

1 John 4:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I hate none here or anywhere, but love all because Jesus first loved me.

I understand why you decided to do that. As I explained, it takes a little study to explore the depths of the word beyond what is printed. Repent or not, I forgive you.

Romans 7:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The law ministers death, while Jesus ministers life. The law ministered to flesh (which dies twice) by being non-carnal, against/opposed to the flesh. Newness of spirit in Christ is truly of the God kind of spiritual, not merely religion.