Must a Christian read the Ten Commandments to Know How God wants them to live?

[CRC]

That Law is not binding upon Christians, yet it served as “a shadow of the good things to come.” (Hebrews 10:1) Hence, paying attention to the Mosaic Law can help us to see how the things written in it are fulfilled. (Luke 24:44, 45) Moreover, the Law contains “typical representations of the things in the heavens.” Studying it is essential if we are to gain an understanding of Christian teachings and conduct.—Hebrews 9:23. The portion of the Bible that contains the Mosaic Law that included the Ten Commandments is indeed also inspired by God and certainly is beneficial for all things. (2 Timothy 3:16) Whereas whether a Christian chooses to identify inappropriate conduct through the “Ten Commandments” it would not fully suffice for such a scrutiny.

 

[Hizikyah]

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

When I walk in/with Messiah He does not set me free from the Father and His Instructions, He reconciles me and sets me on the narrow path....

When I walk in/with Messiah He sets me free from the world, the world that satan has twisted into a "sin carnival"

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If you look back at the roots of these groups and the core errors of their doctrine, you will see the same errors are in these groups...the JW...SDA..and the LDS

Along with the idea that some prophet or group of prophets have to tell them what the bible really says....

Most Christian discussion sites still have promoters of those organizations starting topics that are known as "Christian Bait", like a fisherman dangles a minnow. Evolutionists do that often. Some Muslims like to do that too, especially focusing on the trinity.

Years back I owned a large Yahoo Groups site for 6 years that collapsed before I learned that, so many members worn completely out engaging in "warfare" 24 hours a day, losing much sleep, while the promoters work in shifts 24 hours a day. I ended up with a membership of "victorious" cultists that began turning on themselves like starving Hyenas. The "traffic" on a site is welcome, fruit of one's investment of time and money to make it happen. But getting caught up in endless wrangling over and over, looped threads that scatter the truth in obscurity, can take a toll on physical and mental health. That's why I don't reply to many posts like some do, nor do I start threads, not having a time-committment I own to "own" a discussion.

Now more of us should be more equipped to more quickly identify "Christian Baiting" threads for what they are, and hopefully use wisdom managing your engagement towards having a more normal life doing other things like paint that shed, drive that one needed nail, plus eat more healthy meals using real food you can pull out of the ground, cut from a plant, pick fruit from a bush or tree, or take of an animal. I say that because I spent hundreds of hours emailing departed members, people who confessed the online activity was ruining their health.

Balance. Wisdom, not volume. Confidence instead of continual repetition. Understanding instead of taking up a defense. Teaching instead of arguing. Patience rather than being hasty. Above all love. Teaching truth of Christ is an expression of love for Jesus' words, and neighbor, and God.

In His Royal Name.....

 

[Hizikyah]

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."








According to the Word, love is;

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"

Messiah says because of Lawlessness love will grow cold;

"And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."




Yet im told the Law is to be ignored.....


Can anyone say;

2 Thess 2:6-12, "For the mystery of iniquity (secret initiation of lawlessness*) is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, Yahweh will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin."

*What is the "mystery of iniquity" ?

3466 mustérion
mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine
Short Definition: anything hidden, a mystery
Definition: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;

458 anomia
anomia: lawlessness
Short Definition:lawlessness, iniquity
Definition:lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

When I walk in/with Messiah He does not set me free from the Father and His Instructions, He reconciles me and sets me on the narrow path....

When I walk in/with Messiah He sets me free from the world, the world that satan has twisted into a "sin carnival"

Christians have already answered that message many times, while I notice none have touched many of my own posts in this very thread that give more New Covenant answers. Of course the words of the law have not disappeared . They are recorded on parchment, and in OT Bibles world-wide as well as filling etherspace, it being impossible to find and destroy them all. But the power of those old words is dead towards Christians. It has no power over me. Only the gospel of Christ, the overall message of the New Testament, does have power over me, because I embrace that, and it gives me life, not death.

The problem I see is taking pet scriptures out of context, then stringing them into a doctrine that is easily refuted using whole chapters of the New Testament at a time. For each verse referenced you ought to go read the chapter around it, as I have read here that long posts tend not to be read at all.

 

[Hizikyah]

Christians have already answered that message many times, while I notice none have touched many of my own posts in this very thread that give more New Covenant answers. Of course the words of the law have not disappeared . They are recorded on parchment, and in OT Bibles world-wide as well as filling etherspace, it being impossible to find and destroy them all. But the power of those old words is dead towards Christians. It has no power over me. Only the gospel of Christ, the overall message of the New Testament, does have power over me, because I embrace that, and it gives me life, not death.

The problem I see is taking pet scriptures out of context, then stringing them into a doctrine that is easily refuted using whole chapters of the New Testament at a time. For each verse referenced you ought to go read the chapter around it, as I have read here that long posts tend not to be read at all.

ohh, ok.

Revelation 12:17 New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 New American Standard Bible
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

 

[Hizikyah]

IS there any standard of love accepted by the Creator that is not His Commandments?

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

no anything else is falsehood/lie.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

"For this is the love"

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

I am not perfect and do not claim to walk perfectly in His love, however I do know what it is.

 

[gotime]

I wonder if for a moment I could explain why people saying the law does not need to be kept sounds so out of tune with the bible to me.

How do we know what sin is?

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law tells us what sin is I know you all agree because this one is used all the time, how does the knowledge of sin come by the law?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So the law does not say what is sin but rather what is not sin.

For example, thou shalt not steal, Is it sin to not steal? no so when I read thou shalt not steal and I steal then the law has pointed out I am a sinner.

Let me clarify there is the law of God and the law of sin.

law of God, have no Gods before me VS Law of sin, have any God you want.
law of God, do not take the name of God in vain Vs Law of sin, do whatever you want with His name and take it in vain.

Simple.

So Jesus had to die because we we sinning which means doing the things the law said not to. except one of them it would be not doing the thing the lord said to do.

Thus far usually you all agree, the law points out sin by showing what is good.

Here is where you lose me though.

You then say that we don't have to keep the law because Jesus died for our sins.

In essence this is what I hear you saying,

Now Jesus died we are allowed to sin.

Then many of you go on to say that we do keep 9 but not the 4th one. Yet you forget that that one law/10 commandments/10 words. was given to point out sin, so no matter how you spin it it is sin not to keep the Sabbath holy. So to then say that we don't have to keep it is to then say that we are allowed to sin now Jesus has come.

That is what I hear when you say that.

Then you say no the Sabbath just represents rest in Jesus, now while I acknowledge that the Sabbath does indeed teach that lesson, that is not what the reason given by God is for keeping it. God gives creation as the reason to keep it. Something that Jesus did not change.


You say that we only have to obey the spirit of the law and I can agree with the words but the meaning you intend I do not see as valid.

why? Because you do not do the same thing for the other 9 do you. Not stealing you say means that we don't steal and so on for the other 9 but then suddenly keeping the 7th day Holy becomes Don't bother with it Just rest in Jesus.

It just seems inconsistent from where I stand. If the law points out sin which is verified in the bible and most of you use that very argument against us, Then it is still sin to not remember the 7th day Sabbath of the creation of God.

If it is not then we don't have to have any day and we don't have to keep any of the other 9. remember its one law not 10 laws.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds form the mouth of God. The 10 commandments not 9 proceeded from the mouth of God.

and on top of that, how is the new creature in Christ any different form the old man of sin? If we broke the law before Christ and we break it after then nothing has changed, We are still slaves to sin. The law is still being broken.

hopefully you through this post get a better Idea of why we disagree. We agree no one is saved by works of the law, rather I believe that keeping the law is the fruit of one who is saved by grace through faith. one who in Christ is free from the law of sin.

The law of God says Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. the law of sin says don't worry about it.

I know that not bothering with it is what a sinner does, so shall the new creature behave as the old? shall the child of God disregard the Sabbath just as the common sinner who has not Christ does?

This is not to argue over but to hopefully give you a view into why I cannot accept your views.

 

[gotime]

Christians have already answered that message many times, while I notice none have touched many of my own posts in this very thread that give more New Covenant answers. Of course the words of the law have not disappeared . They are recorded on parchment, and in OT Bibles world-wide as well as filling etherspace, it being impossible to find and destroy them all. But the power of those old words is dead towards Christians. It has no power over me. Only the gospel of Christ, the overall message of the New Testament, does have power over me, because I embrace that, and it gives me life, not death.

The problem I see is taking pet scriptures out of context, then stringing them into a doctrine that is easily refuted using whole chapters of the New Testament at a time. For each verse referenced you ought to go read the chapter around it, as I have read here that long posts tend not to be read at all.

I find your last paragraph interesting, Because I agree with it, Yet my view lines up not with yours but Hizikyah.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."








According to the Word, love is;

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"

Messiah says because of Lawlessness love will grow cold;

"And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."




Yet im told the Law is to be ignored.....


Can anyone say;

2 Thess 2:6-12, "For the mystery of iniquity (secret initiation of lawlessness*) is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, Yahweh will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin."

*What is the "mystery of iniquity" ?

3466 mustérion
mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine
Short Definition: anything hidden, a mystery
Definition: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;

458 anomia
anomia: lawlessness
Short Definition:lawlessness, iniquity
Definition:lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin

Read the Bible, discard the teleprompter. You are not promoting the pure gospel of Christ. I am safe saying that because that passage concerns the Antichrist to come, who will not preach Christ crucified or admit Jesus is Lord.

Why stop at verse 12?

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

That church was of Christian Gentiles not learned of Moses, like practically every Gentile in the world outside of Israel then. If you are able, compare that to your inferred message using 6-12. But if a deceiver, you will not do that without compounding your error.

even the Gentiles were not lawless in general, according to
Romans 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

followed by the great condemnation of Judaism.....

Romans 2:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

He was side-noting to Jews who mostly boasted of the law, practiced circumcision as a sing of it, yet didn't keep that law. The law makes hypocrites of men because they are sinners under the law. The law makes men much worse than hypocrites, worse than infidels, becaue they will not keep the letter of it.


It is true no part of the letter of it will pass away soon, but it is also true it will not save one soul, but will give power to sin itself.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I wonder if for a moment I could explain why people saying the law does not need to be kept sounds so out of tune with the bible to me.

How do we know what sin is?

Keep it simple, brother. Romans 14:20-23 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Mitspa]

IS there any standard of love accepted by the Creator that is not His Commandments?

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

no anything else is falsehood/lie.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

"For this is the love"

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

I am not perfect and do not claim to walk perfectly in His love, however I do know what it is.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love not legalism!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[gotime]

Read the Bible, discard the teleprompter. You are not promoting the pure gospel of Christ. I am safe saying that because that passage concerns the Antichrist to come, who will not preach Christ crucified or admit Jesus is Lord.

Why stop at verse 12?

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

That church was of Christian Gentiles not learned of Moses, like practically every Gentile in the world outside of Israel then. If you are able, compare that to your inferred message using 6-12. But if a deceiver, you will not do that without compounding your error.

even the Gentiles were not lawless in general, according to
Romans 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

followed by the great condemnation of Judaism.....

Romans 2:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

He was side-noting to Jews who mostly boasted of the law, practiced circumcision as a sing of it, yet didn't keep that law. The law makes hypocrites of men because they are sinners under the law. The law makes men much worse than hypocrites, worse than infidels, becaue they will not keep the letter of it.


It is true no part of the letter of it will pass away soon, but it is also true it will not save one soul, but will give power to sin itself.

First of all I love that you are trying to engage the texts used.

Just one thing though you said "That church was of Christian Gentiles not learned of Moses, like practically every Gentile in the world outside of Israel then."

I do not agree with this statement, Is this not an assumption?

If you follow the line of Israel the captivity put Jews all over the world, (many did not come back to Jerusalem) Hence the reason So many appeared on the day of penticost.

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

there are a fair few different nationalities here who are all there to celebrate Passover etc. and Peter reasons with them from the law and the prophets. So Peter by inspiration of the Holy Spirit assumes they have knowledge of the law and thus uses it to show that Jesus is the messiah.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

notice this that they tell them a few things and then say for Moses/the law is preached in every city. This is true all over as you read acts Paul traveled outside to find Gentiles and most places He went there was a synagogue to be found. On top of that He preached at these synagogues and both Jews and Gentiles were present.

Every time you hear Paul speak and Peter They use the law to back their arguments.

Something to think about.

 

[gotime]

Keep it simple, brother. Romans 14:20-23 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

That is not the biblical definition of what sin is.

If I say to someone anything that is not of faith is sin then I need to define faith as well as sin. there is only one definition or place that showed what sin is and I gave text for it.

IF someone asked what is sin your text would not give them the answer but create more questions.

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Sin is known by the law also:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Breaking the law is sin.

 

[Hizikyah]

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love not legalism!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You misuse verses.

For Romas 13 explains the Commandments AS LOVE:

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and (G #2087 ) all other commandments are summed up ( #G346 ) in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Just because you use false association and label things with terms that people dont like does not make you claim of love while denying what the Creator calls love valid.


Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

I say beware to those who calling loving Yah as He says.... legalism.

all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself

who love Me (YHWH) by keeping My Laws.

By this we know

 

[Mitspa]

Faith working by love is obedience ...not legalism!

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[michael56]

To be honest I can see why you think that, maybe one of the most frustrating things from my point of view is how to get people to understand our true point of view.

Let me explain our dilemma,

We believe that the law is still to be kept.
We do not believe that legalism saves nor does keeping the law the way it was meant to be kept.
we believe that keeping the law is the result of salvation through Christ.

Let my try and explain, Sin separated me from my God, I was born this way.

When the law came I saw my sin clearly and my inability to keep it. O wrtched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I realized I needed mercy from the great law giver/Jesus Christ.

The bible spoke of the messiah to come in the Old Testament, and in the new I see Christ and Him Crucified paying for my sins. My heart leaps for Joy I see a way out in Jesus, a way out of my hopeless condition.

But here is a problem, I need more than forgiveness it is not enough to have my sins wiped away, because as soon as they are wiped I added new ones to the slate and needed to confess again and again.

Remember sin separates us from God. So I came to realize that I needed more than forgiveness, I needed as Savior who would not only pay for my sin but would empower me to cease from doing that which separates us. For how could I ever have hope of a future in the presence of a Holy God while sin is part of my life?

This I also found in Jesus, He is a complete savior from sin, I found that by accepting His death I could also partake of His life, His resurrected life. Jesus empowered me to overcome my sins and transformed me by His love.

Guess what changed? I began to look at the law and not see myself as breaking it anymore, why? what had changed? Had I worked harder?

No, not by works but by Grace through faith Jesus changed my heart and is still changing it. There is truly power in the blood and the life of our Saviour.

See I used to try keep the law and kept failing and I only tried to keep it to be saved but I did not like it.

But now through Jesus love I suddenly found a power that causes me to keep it and loves to do so, it is my greatest Joy because it is the evidence of things not seen. it is the power of a risen savior. Jesus my Lord.

Jesus did not just forgive me He saved and is saving me. Do I still need Jesus? Yes every moment, I can only keep them while He is in me. When I take my eyes off Him I sink into sin just as Peter sank into the water. I need Him every hour every second of the day.

You know which part of the law I love the most?

Its the Sabbath, I love them all but the Sabbath more than any other shows the love and character of our God. It says something about God that all the other 9 do not.

I don't keep the Sabbath because the 4th commandment says so. indeed the law simply points out sin when we break it.

So the law only served to show me that when I was not keeping it I was sinning.

But now that Grace through Faith has come through Jesus, I love to keep it, I can't help but keep it. Something in me compels me to keep it. and I delight in it like you would not believe.

It is not a chore it is a blessing above earthly understanding.

See when I was a slave to sin I broke the law which is good Holy and Just.

But now in Jesus I am free and that is why I am able to keep the law.

it is only slaves who can not keep it. My Jesus did not die to leave me a slave and I know that by experience now.

Let me tell you from my perspective what it seems to me when you say I am a legalist or that I am wrong to keep the law.

I hear you saying, have less faith. don't hope for so much in Jesus. God has not freed you yet. Jesus blood was not enough.

I know you don't mean those things but that is how it comes across.

You say that its works, but I say its Faith, I can say no other. For it was faith in Jesus that changed my heart, it is constant trust in Him that produces the fruit of obedience in my life.

I do not strive at the law, I don't need to anymore, Christ is in my and the life I live is none but Him in me through faith.

so Yes I teach to keep the law, because in it is the freedom of Jesus. when I was a slave to sin I could not keep it because sin is breaking it and I was a slave to it.

But now I am free from sin/breaking the law, the natural result of the Spirit in me is keeping it. as the sinful heart does not and cannot so the new heart can and does.

So when you tell me to stop preaching the law know that I can not stop and will not stop, because Christ is the law and when He is in me the law is fulfilled perfectly by His Grace through faith/trusting Him.

I do not preach salvation by law keeping.

I do preach salvation from law breaking in Jesus.

or in other words:

I do not preach salvation by righteousness.

I do preach salvation from sin in Jesus

hope that helps, blessings.

Thank you for this post. I will try to address the general points you have made. But let me firstly say this. To me there is a divide in Christianity. It is not according to denomination but the Holy Spirit. And the divide comes between those who accept the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today and those who do not. The term is often referred to as The Baptism of the Holy Spirit-or the filling of the Holy Spirit.
I grew up in a Baptist church, then with my family went to a ''born again'' church when I was ten. Everything changed then. I knew I must take God very seriously. I responded to an altar call, and that was the defining moment of my life. I knew in my mind how a Christian should live(what they should not do) and in my heart I wanted to obey. But no matter how hard I tried I could not do it. You speak of obeying the law, which law? You see, every time I had an impure thought I knew I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I got angry I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I had an unkind thought about anyone I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I was not perfect I knew I was not living as God wanted me to live. So if I was not perfect I was disobeying God's laws. I became crushed as you, and I became a worse sinner, despite my earnest desire to live as God wanted me to. I became like Paul spoke of in Rom ch7:7-11. For you see, in effect I was trying to be justified before God as a Christian as Paul tried to be justified as a Pharisee. So I will get the same result he got. The good and Holy laws of God I thought would give me life if I obeyed them, instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep them. Sin used what was good and Holy to bring about my condemnation, though the law itself is perfect, holy and righteous. I gave up with Christianity when I was 15, I figured I could not be good enough for God. I thought the other people in church could be, for I assumed they acted 24/7 as they appeared in church every Sunday. In honest estimation of myself I knew I could not do that(I was naïve!)
As you, I found out years later that Christ was my right standing before God, I had none of my own. God revealed grace to me.

. It was only when I finally knew Christ was my righteousness before God that I actually believed I could be a Christian. I guess so far we are pretty identical.
.As you know I go to a SDA church every Saturday as my wife is SDA. I have to be honest with you here, for what point is there in a discussion otherwise. It seems so similar where it has always mattered to me to the church I grew up in. The differences to me are simple the sda church worships on a Saturday, and avoids what to them are unclean foods, and the ''born again'' church of my youth believed in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today. Take those things out of it and they could be the same church. The structure of the service, the type of people who go is almost identical. Here is the thing. Both churches stress how well you must live your life, but neither the church of my youth, or the sda church preach the grace Paul wrote of. They both preach Christ died for your sins, but not the full message of grace Paul preached. Now in fairness, very, very few ministers do preach that. But for me, the sda church and the church of my youth stress how well you must live your life(according to God's laws) That's fine, but if you do not preach the full message of grace as is in the bible alongside it, you can invite disaster for people.
You see, it so often comes across as this: You are saved by faith in Christ, he died for your sins, now you are saved you must obey the law.'' The inference being if you don't you cannot be a Christian. It sounds great doesn't it? It sounds a natural thing to preach, and who should argue with that? But when that was preached to me as a young person I became a worse sinner. You see, it didn't matter I was told Jesus died for me, according to what was preached, if I could not obey the law I was condemned to hell, for the stipulation for me remaining a Christian in effect was if I obeyed the law. Now to me, that put me under a law of righteousness. In effect I was saved by grace, kept if I could obey the law.
I don't mean to be unkind here, but when I first met my wife that was her view also. And she was Baptised in the sda church.
I told her IA knew I would go to Heaven. She questioned why I could say that as she did not have that assurity. In other words, she did not know if she would obey the law well enough to attain Heaven. Whereas for me, I attain Heaven because Christ paid the price of my sin at Calvary, past, present and future. She in effect is trusting in herself to get to Heaven, I am trusting in Jesus.
My wife is now starting to change slightly some of her beliefs on this
I will stop there for now as this post will become too long otherwise.
I hope I have not offended you by what I have written, that was not my intention, simply to be honest

 

[Hizikyah]

Why stop at verse?

Romans 2:4-13, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

Why stop at verse?

Romans 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15, "Since they show that the requirements of the Law are written in their hearts, their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts now accuse or else try to excuse them."

626 - apologeomai
apologeomai: to give an account of oneself, hence to defend oneself
Original Word: ?p??????µa?
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apologeomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-og-eh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I give a defense, defend myself
Definition: I give a defense, defend myself (especially in a law court): it can take an object of what is said in defense.

1 Timothy 4:1-2, "Now the Spirit speaks very plainly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared as with a hot iron."

Ecclesiastes 1:9, "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun."

Zechariah 7:12, "Yes, they made their hearts as hard as stone, that they could not hear the Law, and the words which YHWH of hosts had sent by his Spirit by the former prophets. Therefore great wrath came from YHWH of hosts."

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."

PS 119

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.

10 With my whole heart, I have sought you. Don't let me wander from your commandments.

11 I have hidden your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

12 Blessed are you, Yahweh. Teach me your statutes.

13 With my lips, I have declared all the ordinances of your mouth.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of your testimonies, as much as in all riches.

15 I will meditate on your precepts, and consider your ways.

16 I will delight myself in your statutes. I will not forget your word


for man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH does man live
​

 

[keeth]

Mitspa and Word_Swordsman are both very wise people who have done their research on this topic and are attempting to educate yourself.. instead of calling them liars, why don't you do your own research and see if they're right or wrong in what they claim?

I have been an SDA for thirty some odd years now. They both said I believe things I do not believe, and that I do not believe things that I do believe. They are lying. I don't think they are, I know they are.

 

[gotime]

Thank you for this post. I will try to address the general points you have made. But let me firstly say this. To me there is a divide in Christianity. It is not according to denomination but the Holy Spirit. And the divide comes between those who accept the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today and those who do not. The term is often referred to as The Baptism of the Holy Spirit-or the filling of the Holy Spirit.
I grew up in a Baptist church, then with my family went to a ''born again'' church when I was ten. Everything changed then. I knew I must take God very seriously. I responded to an altar call, and that was the defining moment of my life. I knew in my mind how a Christian should live(what they should not do) and in my heart I wanted to obey. But no matter how hard I tried I could not do it. You speak of obeying the law, which law? You see, every time I had an impure thought I knew I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I got angry I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I had an unkind thought about anyone I was not living as God wanted me to live. If I was not perfect I knew I was not living as God wanted me to live. So if I was not perfect I was disobeying God's laws. I became crushed as you, and I became a worse sinner, despite my earnest desire to live as God wanted me to. I became like Paul spoke of in Rom ch7:7-11. For you see, in effect I was trying to be justified before God as a Christian as Paul tried to be justified as a Pharisee. So I will get the same result he got. The good and Holy laws of God I thought would give me life if I obeyed them, instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep them. Sin used what was good and Holy to bring about my condemnation, though the law itself is perfect, holy and righteous. I gave up with Christianity when I was 15, I figured I could not be good enough for God. I thought the other people in church could be, for I assumed they acted 24/7 as they appeared in church every Sunday. In honest estimation of myself I knew I could not do that(I was naïve!)
As you, I found out years later that Christ was my right standing before God, I had none of my own. God revealed grace to me. So far we pretty much agree I guess.

. It was only when I finally knew Christ was my righteousness before God that I actually believed I could be a Christian. I guess so far we are pretty identical.
.As you know I go to a SDA church every Saturday as my wife is SDA. I have to be honest with you here, for what point is there in a discussion otherwise. It seems so similar where it has always mattered to me to the church I grew up in. The differences to me are simple the sda church worships on a Saturday, and avoids what to them are unclean foods, and the ''born again'' church of my youth believed in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today. Take those things out of it and they could be the same church. The structure of the service, the type of people who go is almost identical. Here is the thing. Both churches stress how well you must live your life, but neither the church of my youth, or the sda church preach the grace Paul wrote of. They both preach Christ died for your sins, but not the full message of grace Paul preached. Now in fairness, very, very few ministers do preach that. But for me, the sda church and the church of my youth stress how well you must live your life(according to God's laws) That's fine, but if you do not preach the full message of grace as is in the bible alongside it, you can invite disaster for people.
You see, it so often comes across as this: You are saved by faith in Christ, he died for your sins, now you are saved you must obey the law.'' The inference being if you don't you cannot be a Christian. It sounds great doesn't it? It sounds a natural thing to preach, and who should argue with that? But when that was preached to me as a young person I became a worse sinner. You see, it didn't matter I was told Jesus died for me, according to what was preached, if I could not obey the law I was condemned to hell, for the stipulation for me remaining a Christian in effect was if I obeyed the law. Now to me, that put me under a law of righteousness. In effect I was saved by grace, kept if I could obey the law.
I don't mean to be unkind here, but when I first met my wife that was her view also. And she was Baptised in the sda church.
I told her IA knew I would go to Heaven. She questioned why I could say that as she did not have that assurity. In other words, she did not know if she would obey the law well enough to attain Heaven. Whereas for me, I attain Heaven because Christ paid the price of my sin at Calvary, past, present and future. She in effect is trusting in herself to get to Heaven, I am trusting in Jesus.
My wife is now starting to change slightly some of her beliefs on this
I will stop there for now as this post will become too long otherwise.
I hope I have not offended you by what I have written, that was not my intention, simply to be honest

Appreciate that thank you, no offence taken your honesty and care is refreshing.

reading this I see you and I have a lot more in common than I realized.

In my church as I am the preacher I uphold the standard of obedience but I also hold up just a high the Grace of God and His great love and power in us. I also believe in the gifts of the Spirit and teach on that also. In Fact the power of the Spirit I find to be 100% needed to walk the Christian life.

I understand what you are saying about the SDA church, I can agree that the reality is some SDA churches preach the law in a way that is devoid of Christ. Others preach grace but no standard whatsoever.

All I can say is in My church they understand that they must keep the law 100%, Yet none of theme feel discouraged because I lift higher than that the All powerful all loving God of heaven Who alone is the one who can do this for us and in us by His Spirit.

We are against condemnation at our church, when a member is struggling to overcome we do not tell them off, we love them embrace them, speak words of encouragement to them, Help them put their faith not in themselves but in the promises of our God in Jesus. In this we have seen wonderful changes in our church, victories over sin and love for one another and people around us are starting to notice the difference.

God bless you mate as I said it seems we are more on the same page than not.