my last argument for obedience

[MsSuzanna]

It irks me that people are presenting obedience to Christ as being motivated by fear (lest you be cut off) instead of being motivated by love. I have read through this thread and I hate how people are treating obedience to Christ as a chore instead of a relationship where He is leading your life to walk in the good works He has prepared.

Obedience isn't found in seeing the commands, setting the righteous bar, and then going for it. As if striving in the flesh and morality meets His standard. Such efforts are worthless. It is God who sanctifies us and all that we do is rest in Jesus. Strive to enter that rest. Be holy as He is holy.

That isn't something that is even attainable, don't fool yourself. VVith such a command He gives provision. He has made you holy, and righteous. VVe must awake to righteousness and sin not, as it were. Come to the realization of who God has made us to be as new creations and walk it out. As some people say, "right believing leads to right living."

Obedience is bred out of a healthy balance of love and reverence for Christ .

Yes we are new creations in Christ! The problem is that we dont always walk according to the spirit. When that happens we may sin. When we sin, we are forgiven. When we are forgiven ,still have to live with the circumstances of sin.

God is no respecter of persons. He is just. He is sovereign.

Obedience is bred out of a healthy balance of love and reverence for Christ .

When the consequences are being dealt out for sin,I am not singing kumbahyah. I am fearful of what God is going to allow me to go through.

Obedience is a discipline. Its a choice but it is not easy. I do not walk according to the world and because of that it is "NARROW is the way " and not the "wide path to destruction."

 

[Grace777x70]

It irks me that people are presenting obedience to Christ as being motivated by fear (lest you be cut off) instead of being motivated by love. I have read through this thread and I hate how people are treating obedience to Christ as a chore instead of a relationship where He is leading your life to walk in the good works He has prepared.

Obedience isn't found in seeing the commands, setting the righteous bar, and then going for it. As if striving in the flesh and morality meets His standard. Such efforts are worthless. It is God who sanctifies us and all that we do is rest in Jesus. Strive to enter that rest. Be holy as He is holy.

That isn't something that is even attainable, don't fool yourself. VVith such a command He gives provision. He has made you holy, and righteous. VVe must awake to righteousness and sin not, as it were. Come to the realization of who God has made us to be as new creations and walk it out. As some people say, "right believing leads to right living."

Amen Ben......that is the difference between works-based salvationists mindsets and grace-based mindset. To hide this works based fear under the disguise of "the gospel of grace" believers do not obey Christ is utter foolishness. It's the motivation behind the obedience is the issue. Grace believers believe that it is the life of Christ inside us that is transforming us to walk in the commandments of God under the Holy Spirit in us.

We are "doing" the same things as works-based people but the motivation and the "source" is different. I don't obey God just because it is a command and if I don't - I go to hell - Iobey because it's the life of Christ in me to walk in holiness and in truth powered entirely by His love and grace. It's as natural for my new creation in Christ to walk in obedience as it is for my outer man to breathe the air. His love in me compels me to walk in love and grace towards others.

It's interesting that works-based mindsets always believe that they can lose salvation because of what they do. This is NOT the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Our Father is not looking for ways to keep us from being with Him. He gave His Son for our redemption. Let's believe in all that He has done for us and walk in His love and grace as we get to know Him more intimately.

 

[BenFTW]

The issue with people taking the commands of Christ and presenting it as law is that we then still fall short of God's glory. Did the law not teach you anything!? Has God not revealed your lack of righteousness, that you are incapable of meeting His standards? Such a mindset is like that of the Judaizers, trying to place a yoke of slavery on people they themselves couldn't keep. VVho are you fooling, you who think you're fulfilling these commands of Jesus? Are you so perfect?

This is what is disturbing me as I read this. The inherent self-righteousness, that says to be obedient to the commands of Christ or else, and then pretends as if they are being obedient to such commands perfectly. They have gone from one covenant to another, and taken the principles of the old to the new. It doesn't work. God sanctifies you. Yes, Jesus gave commands. No, you can't fulfill them in and of yourself through striving and morality. It is a work of God.

I'm sorry if this is coming off passionately in any negative way, I just feel compelled to address it as such a mindset will put people in a place of condemnation and lack of rest if they feel they must keep the commands of Christ and then fail. It is legalistic by nature, and is void of assurance. I am not saying don't be obedient to Jesus, what I am saying is that such obedience is a result of Him and the identity He has given you. Do not strive in the flesh, fail, and then feel condemned. God loves you, and He will never leave you nor forsake you. You are secure in Christ.

I am just concerned for the condemnation that comes with such a mindset of do or else.

 

[jasonj]

aww gee whiz Jason

I feel kind of caught in the middle and not sure you quite understand? please don't take that as offensive

it's both....some people find Romans so hard to understand...but you guys are kind of saying the same from...oh well another picture in my mind (that's how God often speaks to me by His Spirit) from ACROSS the water

It's the SAME water man!

I'm not offended lol its all good. I don't see the same water. I see one is a tool the other the puspose. but like you said...gee whizzers I guess. ill Just say it like this. There are good seeds here in this post from many more than myself. and people need to realize texting and typing sometimes we think someone is angry when really they are just saying something we didn't see before. I do not in any way care about anyones approval, apart from the One who Died to earn my heart, the only worthy one. Because He is worthy to me. I'm all in, ill follow until I cant anymore, then ill rest until I'm rewarded. But people have free will....

 

[Grace777x70]

The issue with people taking the commands of Christ and presenting it as law is that we then still fall short of God's glory. Did the law not teach you anything!? Has God not revealed your lack of righteousness, that you are incapable of meeting His standards? Such a mindset is like that of the Judaizers, trying to place a yoke of slavery on people they themselves couldn't keep. VVho are you fooling, you who think you're fulfilling these commands of Jesus? Are you so perfect?

This is what is disturbing me as I read this. The inherent self-righteousness, that says to be obedient to the commands of Christ or else, and then pretends as if they are being obedient to such commands perfectly. They have gone from one covenant to another, and taken the principles of the old to the new. It doesn't work. God sanctifies you. Yes, Jesus gave commands. No, you can't fulfill them in and of yourself through striving and morality. It is a work of God.

I'm sorry if this is coming off passionately in any negative way, I just feel compelled to address it as such a mindset will put people in a place of condemnation and lack of rest if they feel they must keep the commands of Christ and then fail. It is legalistic by nature, and is void of assurance. I am not saying don't be obedient to Jesus, what I am saying is that such obedience is a result of Him and the identity He has given you. Do not strive in the flesh, fail, and then feel condemned. God loves you, and He will never leave you nor forsake you. You are secure in Christ.

I am just concerned for the condemnation that comes with such a mindset of do or else.

I agree with you 100%.....there is a vast difference between living by grace through faith in Christ's work alone for salvation and "obeying" commands to "maintain" salvation. Obeying the Lord is as natural as breathing to the new creation in Christ. And we are to obey the Lord Jesus Christ...this is NOT the issue here.

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Living by grace through faith manifests itself in good works.

Notice in the below verse..it was not Paul that worked ( that is in his own effort )..it was the grace of God in him. The understanding of this below will help us to grow in the knowledge of walking by the spirit for our lives.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

 

[FreeNChrist]

follow Jesus ben, the holy spirit is always saying it.

But that isn't what you are preaching. You're preaching follow and be obedient what you are calling "the teachings of Jesus". You do realize that Jesus was a Jew who lived and taught under the Law, right? And that the Cross changed everything, right?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The issue with people taking the commands of Christ and presenting it as law is that we then still fall short of God's glory. Did the law not teach you anything!? Has God not revealed your lack of righteousness, that you are incapable of meeting His standards? Such a mindset is like that of the Judaizers, trying to place a yoke of slavery on people they themselves couldn't keep. VVho are you fooling, you who think you're fulfilling these commands of Jesus? Are you so perfect?

This is what is disturbing me as I read this. The inherent self-righteousness, that says to be obedient to the commands of Christ or else, and then pretends as if they are being obedient to such commands perfectly. They have gone from one covenant to another, and taken the principles of the old to the new. It doesn't work. God sanctifies you. Yes, Jesus gave commands. No, you can't fulfill them in and of yourself through striving and morality. It is a work of God.

I'm sorry if this is coming off passionately in any negative way, I just feel compelled to address it as such a mindset will put people in a place of condemnation and lack of rest if they feel they must keep the commands of Christ and then fail. It is legalistic by nature, and is void of assurance. I am not saying don't be obedient to Jesus, what I am saying is that such obedience is a result of Him and the identity He has given you. Do not strive in the flesh, fail, and then feel condemned. God loves you, and He will never leave you nor forsake you. You are secure in Christ.

I am just concerned for the condemnation that comes with such a mindset of do or else.

Christ said his law was a yoke easy to bear. Peter said the yoke of the law of Moses was unbearable. So there is a vast difference. It's really, really sad to see you and others conflating the law of Moses with the law of Christ .

 

[BenFTW]

But that isn't what you are preaching. You're preaching follow and be obedient what you are calling "the teachings of Jesus". You do realize that Jesus was a Jew who lived and taught under the Law, right? And that the Cross changed everything, right?

The solution to sin is not law, but grace (as you know). To them that think that Jesus gave commands and they must follow it, all that they've done is replace the law of Moses with the teaching of Christ and are still striving in the flesh to be perfect. People don't realize that every command of God, whether it be from the Old Testament or the New Testament, cannot be perfectly kept and therefore, we inevitably fall short of God's glory. So what is the solution? The grace of God.

Romans 6:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You cannot take that which is holy, just and good and place it before you as a list of commands to fulfill and succeed. It doesn't work. God's solution is grace, not law.

 

[jasonj]

The issue with people taking the commands of Christ and presenting it as law is that we then still fall short of God's glory. Did the law not teach you anything!? Has God not revealed your lack of righteousness, that you are incapable of meeting His standards? Such a mindset is like that of the Judaizers, trying to place a yoke of slavery on people they themselves couldn't keep. VVho are you fooling, you who think you're fulfilling these commands of Jesus? Are you so perfect?

This is what is disturbing me as I read this. The inherent self-righteousness, that says to be obedient to the commands of Christ or else, and then pretends as if they are being obedient to such commands perfectly. They have gone from one covenant to another, and taken the principles of the old to the new. It doesn't work. God sanctifies you. Yes, Jesus gave commands. No, you can't fulfill them in and of yourself through striving and morality. It is a work of God.

I'm sorry if this is coming off passionately in any negative way, I just feel compelled to address it as such a mindset will put people in a place of condemnation and lack of rest if they feel they must keep the commands of Christ and then fail. It is legalistic by nature, and is void of assurance. I am not saying don't be obedient to Jesus, what I am saying is that such obedience is a result of Him and the identity He has given you. Do not strive in the flesh, fail, and then feel condemned. God loves you, and He will never leave you nor forsake you. You are secure in Christ.

I am just concerned for the condemnation that comes with such a mindset of do or else.

I understand ben where you are coming from, honest to God I do. you see what I'm saying is Jesus teaches us all we need in His teachings there is a law for our forgiveness " if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins" you see what I'm saying? if we need anything in any situation, they are found in His teachings. His teachings are approved By God. that's all I'm saying, the grace leads us to His teachings, they are Life. there is no condemnation in Christs teachings. we are taught to forgive, we are forgiven, merciful, we receive mercy, we bless others , God blesses us, we follow Jesus all it takes is the true acknowledgement between you in prayer to God and from there He will draw you near. faith is stepping into action. you have good points I didn't mention them, but you do have hgood word in you, I'm not popking you, just have something true and powerful to share. something that changed Life for me and brought Jesus High in my sight. Acceopting the word planted in us, like you were saying right belief leads to right actions. what I'm telling you is the right belief. Follow Jesus with all you are. that's the truth. that's Gods will for believers, to step into faith that lives. I'm gonna let this thread go now. I wasn't able to keep up with so many comments, not intentional. one I did see another person respoind to was " am I perfect?" I have said at least 15 times that no I am not perfect, I just follow Christ teachings. forgiveness is provided for in His teachings, in Hois word........God bless you ben and I think it was Utah, not sure tho.


Honestly guys, I figured when I posted this op. the scriptures were so clear that it might lead to consideration because its scripture provided after the resurrection, and after pauls writings, by John who walked and Lived with Jesus , was one of His closest 3 friends, saw His =transfiguration, all His miracles ect.....I think Hes worth listening to, John that is. and Jesus is more than worthy of our servitude. so truthfully no offense was meant, and didn't mean to cause such a disturbance. to me especially coupled with the many other scriptures offered the past week or so. maybe its Just me, but its really worth praying and considering some things.....Not being rude but I gotta let this thread go, please consider in prayer Gods will for our obedience to Jesus. and may He answer speedily with power from on High, in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[BenFTW]

Christ said his law was a yoke easy to bear. Peter said the yoke of the law of Moses was unbearable. So there is a vast difference. It's really, really sad to see you and others conflating the law of Moses with the law of Christ .

That isn't what is being done. VVhat is sad is that you feel compelled to tell people to follow such commands or else. It is void of the love of Christ. Jesus didn't give us commands just so that we could try to attain them and fail and then be condemned (or "cut off"). This is truly sad, that you have ignored the grace of God and the way the Lord works in us and sanctifies us to fulfill such commands.

 

[jasonj]

The solution to sin is not law, but grace (as you know). To them that think that Jesus gave commands and they must follow it, all that they've done is replace the law of Moses with the teaching of Christ and are still striving in the flesh to be perfect. People don't realize that every command of God, whether it be from the Old Testament or the New Testament, cannot be perfectly kept and therefore, we inevitably fall short of God's glory. So what is the solution? The grace of God.

Romans 6:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You cannot take that which is holy, just and good and place it before you as a list of commands to fulfill and succeed. It doesn't work. God's solution is grace, not law.

naw ur way off ben. its about following the spirit with the body. or offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is our SPIRITUAL act of worship" again pretty clear that to obey in spirit, is to guve our flesh in His service as Holy and pleasing. pleasing to God is obedience. oi gotta stop yu guys all get the last word, Jesus words actually are final to me god bless you

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I have over the past few days or so given a lot of scripture, that continues to be "refuted" by the ever popular "gospel of Grace" before you begin scoffing or setting up your rebuttal. Please do consider these scriptures that do in fact support the many others ive annoyed the grace alone crowd with, I say in the sight of Christ, my intention is good. since many peeps wont accept anything before the resurrection as applying to Christians ( wich I find ridiculous) I for 27 minutes focused on the latter parts of the n.t. scriptures, here are some pretty clear ones I hope you will at least consider, not for myself, but simply because they are Gods word.

JESUS said to first make the Insde clean.Only GOD can clean the Inside.

The spirits of just men were made perfect.Hebrews 12:23

Then by the mercies of God renew our minds presenting our bodies a living sacrifice.
Romans 12:1-2

Obedience comes after salvation and not before salvation,If a person were attempting to be obedient before salvation they would be using will-power alone.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I understand ben where you are coming from, honest to God I do. you see what I'm saying is Jesus teaches us all we need in His teachings there is a law for our forgiveness " if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins" you see what I'm saying? if we need anything in any situation, they are found in His teachings.

That's just it, that's not where it's found. If you want to learn what it means to be a New Covenant Christian you will have to move on from those red letters in your Bible, on out of the gospel narratives, past the historical and transitional book of Acts, and on into the doctrinal books. Those are the teachings of Jesus that explain to us the life of a Christian under the New Covenant of Grace.

 

[ember]

I'm not offended lol its all good. I don't see the same water. I see one is a tool the other the puspose. but like you said...gee whizzers I guess. ill Just say it like this. There are good seeds here in this post from many more than myself. and people need to realize texting and typing sometimes we think someone is angry when really they are just saying something we didn't see before. I do not in any way care about anyones approval, apart from the One who Died to earn my heart, the only worthy one. Because He is worthy to me. I'm all in, ill follow until I cant anymore, then ill rest until I'm rewarded. But people have free will....

well, tools have a purpose, eh?

it just really crystallized in my mind...but that's ok

I don't know why there is this ...ummm...seemingly insurmountable obstacle...I don't see where someone is saying do not follow Christ or grace covers everything with no cost

well....I'm just going for clarity and people being one in Christ...I can't make it happen

I don't see a fault...maybe some growing pains...dunno

anyway...I am sure that no one has all the revelation or understanding and most likely most will concur with that

good...have a great evening

 

[BenFTW]

naw ur way off ben. its about following the spirit with the body. or offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is our SPIRITUAL act of worship" again pretty clear that to obey in spirit, is to guve our flesh in His service as Holy and pleasing. pleasing to God is obedience. oi gotta stop yu guys all get the last word, Jesus words actually are final to me god bless you

How is that way off? I gave you the scripture that plainly states that sin's dominion is not over those who are under grace. It is not legalistic by any means. If a congregation is in sin, do you place before them the law and say, "The Lord says thou shall not"? You strike fear in their hearts, and they feel condemned. It offers them no victory. It condemns them. VVhat is the true and lasting solution to sin in our lives?

 

[jasonj]

well, tools have a purpose, eh?

it just really crystallized in my mind...but that's ok

I don't know why there is this ...ummm...seemingly insurmountable obstacle...I don't see where someone is saying do not follow Christ or grace covers everything with no cost

well....I'm just going for clarity and people being one in Christ...I can't make it happen

I don't see a fault...maybe some growing pains...dunno

anyway...I am sure that no one has all the revelation or understanding and most likely most will concur with that

good...have a great evening

Jesus does. bless you also

 

[jasonj]

How is that way off? I gave you the scripture that plainly states that sin's dominion is not over those who are under grace. It is not legalistic by any means. If a congregation is in sin, do you place before them the law and say, "The Lord says thou shall not"? You strike fear in their hearts, and they feel condemned. It offers them no victory. It condemns them. VVhat is the true and lasting solution to sin in our lives?

I STRIKE FEAR IN SOMEONES HEART BEN? really hahaha because I said follow Jesus words? or because I gave a scripture that's a statement that no ones gonna be able to say it doesn't mean what it means? really ben? honestly not one person has dealt with the op scriptures. for once, you guys explain to me how those scriptures work with your doctrine? ill check back later to be enlightened......again, instead of irrelevance, deal with the op scriptures, tell me how I don't understand it, how it fits with not making effort and not having to do anything. I guess prolly it historically mis interpreted or in Aramaic it really means another thing.....yeesh.

But ill check back once to have your understanding fix my terrible fearful doctrines that are destroying everyone n all.....obeying Jesus. lol wow. if only I had offered 75 scriptures over the last week straight from Gods word, maybe someone would have considered idk..im good either way lots of Good stuff everyone left, noi hard feelings ben. I think obedience probably isn't gonna work on this group, dang, I alllmost had you all, better go devour some poor sheep and encourage thenm to follow Jesus. ( yes, yes, my attitude has declined this comment) gonna go repent......God is Good ben, Grace is good.

 

[ember]

Jesus does. bless you also

yes He does! He does

 

[jasonj]

yes He does! He does

Yells n screams why you!!!!! just kiddn He is good God bless you no hard feelings I hope none for me

 

[Persuaded]

I think we should understand that many who say they are saved are not and have never been.
I have talked to people who say thay are Christians because they go to church, or their parents are christians, or they are not Jews or Muslums so they are Christians. They simple have no idea what it means to be saved even while saying they are a Christian.
A child of God will never be perfect as long as we are in the flesh.
Sometime a child of God backslides and may live a ungodly life for a short time like those at Corinth.
But if they are truly saved, God will chastise them and they may suffer greatly even unto death just like those at Corinth.
A person that claims salvation but lives in sin with no chastisement form God has deceived himself.

I am convinced that many have deceived themselves. They have a false assurance. They have believed lies and have placed their hope for eternal life in the wrong person.
What is very sad is that they simply can not be reached with the truth any more.