my last argument for obedience

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J

jasonj

Guest
#21
Morality doesn't sanctify, God does. That is something the Lord informed me of, that it is He who sanctifies His children. Its His process. I think with that in mind, in speaking of obedience, rules, and what not, we should be careful in how we present it so that we do not impose our impatience of someone's lack of perfection on to someone and make them feel condemned or terrible. VVe need to extend grace and love to people and let the Lord work on them.

Obedience is a necessity in our walk, but this obedience is found in intimacy.

if someone is convicted or feels condemned from hearing Obey Jesus........that's a good thing Ben, that will bring them to repentance and make them Grow and then they will be the one later speaking the truth of Jesus words. the thing that messes us up ( and i have so been there) is trying to not see whats there because we don't want to have to let Go of whats in our hearts that is opposed to God. I will never offer condemnation to anyone, if the truth offers conviction, its a blessing to the person, conviction is from the holy spirit in us ben. I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings, or make people feel like I'm against them or Judging them. I'm absolutely not. but if no one likes me much and a few people hear what Jesus has given my heart to speak, and then they go to Jesus words and find the truth. I am happy to be the bad guy :) God bless you in the abundance of Christ Jesus and all of His provision for Living a Godly Life in Christ. and morality is Gods nature Ben
 
B

bikerchaz

Guest
#22
I am not sure whether I have got this right or not, and I thought I had noticed a theme on here that works are not important and accepting the "grace" of God in faith was to be grasped above all. I had/have noticed the feeling that what we do does not matter if we have grace, but it was put in a more subtle way that irked me, as if by doing we are trying to earn grace.

While reading through this thread the epistle of James kept coming to mind chapter 2 which talks of faith and works.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? [SUP]17 [/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][d][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


I may be wrong again but could the word "Faith" be replaced with 'Grace' for grace is received through faith?

God has given me a family because He knows I can not be alone, and I love my wife and children and that love I have produces within me a desire to fulfil their every need beyond what they ask for, Jesus knows I would spoil them rotten if I could . This to me is only a shadow of how I feel towards Jesus for what He has done for me, He suffered for me, he was beaten for me, he was 'hung out to dry' like a wet towel (sorry my analogy) He was bled out and went into death willingly for me! because He loves me! That dose things to me I can't reproduce in words and it spurs me on to do more than just 'my duty', I feel it should for all of us who love Him.

I have noticed also that there are those who promote sitting on their hands and saying water baptism isn't necessary for salvation, 'do it if you want to'. This all seems to be totally up the wall, if Jesus had only hinted that He might like us to do it every week I would have a hole dug in my garden for that purpose (not that I am promoting this it would be silly).

I love reading words inspired by the Holy Spirit, a wonderful thread. Thank you
 
Feb 11, 2016
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#23
absolutely could not disagree with any scripture you offered, or your words wich added insight to them. Thank you for adding. and God bless you in the abundance of Christs provision
God richly bless you too, peace
 
J

jasonj

Guest
#24
I am not sure whether I have got this right or not, and I thought I had noticed a theme on here that works are not important and accepting the "grace" of God in faith was to be grasped above all. I had/have noticed the feeling that what we do does not matter if we have grace, but it was put in a more subtle way that irked me, as if by doing we are trying to earn grace.

While reading through this thread the epistle of James kept coming to mind chapter 2 which talks of faith and works.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? [SUP]17 [/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[SUP][d][/SUP]? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and he was called God’s friend. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


I may be wrong again but could the word "Faith" be replaced with 'Grace' for grace is received through faith?

God has given me a family because He knows I can not be alone, and I love my wife and children and that love I have produces within me a desire to fulfil their every need beyond what they ask for, Jesus knows I would spoil them rotten if I could . This to me is only a shadow of how I feel towards Jesus for what He has done for me, He suffered for me, he was beaten for me, he was 'hung out to dry' like a wet towel (sorry my analogy) He was bled out and went into death willingly for me! because He loves me! That dose things to me I can't reproduce in words and it spurs me on to do more than just 'my duty', I feel it should for all of us who love Him.

I have noticed also that there are those who promote sitting on their hands and saying water baptism isn't necessary for salvation, 'do it if you want to'. This all seems to be totally up the wall, if Jesus had only hinted that He might like us to do it every week I would have a hole dug in my garden for that purpose (not that I am promoting this it would be silly).

I love reading words inspired by the Holy Spirit, a wonderful thread. Thank you
I would say that its all summed up in one word. Jesus. :) iwas noticing in your comment, you have such a love for your family, (it shows in just the couple words) what I find even more amazing than Jesus suffered for me, is when you look at your own family.....because of Jesus, you and they will Live eternally in Gods presence. The thing with the argument of Grace v works. is really super simple. Grace and works go hand in hand. Gods Grace, enabling us to do the works already prepared for us to Do. there is no contention between them. its the grace movement out there. its true, but its taught as if that's everything. to just say its all grace. it ignores the words of Jesus, who says "do these things"

You have been a blessing my friend, and I'm not sure if you are aware, but your heart always shows as a beautiful thing
, I suppose its the spirit that recognizes.......But God bless you in every way God wills in yur Life, in the name of Jesus
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#25
I don't think you'll find one person of the "grace crowd" that has said we aren't to be obedient to God. The disagreement may come when you start emphasizing the law. Remember, we don't serve in the oldness of the letter but in the newness of the spirit.

Romans 7:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
I agree with Ben -

I have not seen anyone in the "grace crowd" say NOT to obey Christ. That is a total mis-representation of the truth and it stems from not understanding the gospel of grace that is in Christ alone or not listening to what is really being said. We are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

There is obedience in the New Covenant but it's source and motivation is different from the Old Covenant mindset of "doing in order to get". The Old Covenant was sourced on obeying rules and regulations.

The source of obedience in the New Covenant is from an exchanged life because we are new creations now in Christ and as we renew our minds to the truth and life that is in Jesus only - we walk out that life outwardly that reflects who we really are in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man that is in Christ.

The fruit of His life in us flows through and in us to walk in love and obedience to a hurt and dying world and also to our brethren. It is not a matter of obeying rules - it's a matter of His life being expressed from us.

We are saved by grace through faith only in Christ's completed work. We then have good works but they are sourced by His life and love in us. No one that is believing in the grace of God says not to do good works.

We should all be living godly by the grace of God in our lives.

Grace believers may not agree when some people take scriptures out of context to try to prove that we need to do things in order to be saved like " Hebrews chapter 10 :26-29. " which is used continuously out of context.

Neither has any one that believes in the gospel of grace of Christ say there is no repentance in the believer. In fact, believers in the "gospel of grace " say we should be repenting constantly.

These are all mis-representations of what is really being said. Perhaps it's time to see what is really being said so that these continuous false accusations can be stopped and we can all grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

So, once more no believers in the "gospel of grace" say NOT to obey Christ. Repentance should be happening constantly as we learn new truth. No one says to "sin all you want" as we have said over 100 x times - that grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.

Let's put these false accusations to bed and walk on in the Lord Jesus as we grow in His grace and knowledge and let's encourage each other to walk out what Christ has already done for us.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.




 
Nov 22, 2015
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#26
Perhaps this video will help to put to bed this false accusation that to believers in the "gospel of grace" say that our behavior doesn't matter. I really encourage people to watch this so that we can stop mis-representing things and speak truth to one another.


[video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#27
No worries you aren't offending me or hurting my faith at all, haha. :) If your intention is to be obedient to Christ, thats awesome. I think people ought to be obedient to God and what I mean by that is an ongoing and real relationship with God. Hearing His voice and following His lead. Don't worry, if you are His child you will be sanctified and that is a wonderful thing.
I think this touches on what obedience is to lawless grace believers. Obedience is doing those things that facilitate a metaphysical/emotional experience that is assumed to be a relationship with GOD. Doctrine becomes anathema to this mindset, so any NT commandment is viewed as something that possibly should be done, but doesn't have to be done because that would make it OT law and bondage.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#28
Perhaps this video will help to put to bed this false accusation that to believers in the "gospel of grace" say that our behavior doesn't matter. I really encourage people to watch this so that we can stop mis-representing things and speak truth to one another.
[/B]
There is no misrepresentation. Your version of grace does teach that behavior doesn't matter in terms of salvation.
 
B

bikerchaz

Guest
#29
I agree with Ben -

I have not seen anyone in the "grace crowd" say NOT to obey Christ. That is a total mis-representation of the truth and it stems from not understanding the gospel of grace that is in Christ alone or not listening to what is really being said. We are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

There is obedience in the New Covenant but it's source and motivation is different from the Old Covenant mindset of "doing in order to get". The Old Covenant was sourced on obeying rules and regulations.

The source of obedience in the New Covenant is from an exchanged life because we are new creations now in Christ and as we renew our minds to the truth and life that is in Jesus only - we walk out that life outwardly that reflects who we really are in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man that is in Christ.

The fruit of His life in us flows through and in us to walk in love and obedience to a hurt and dying world and also to our brethren. It is not a matter of obeying rules - it's a matter of His life being expressed from us.

We are saved by grace through faith only in Christ's completed work. We then have good works but they are sourced by His life and love in us. No one that is believing in the grace of God says not to do good works.

We should all be living godly by the grace of God in our lives.

Grace believers may not agree when some people take scriptures out of context to try to prove that we need to do things in order to be saved like " Hebrews chapter 10 :26-29. " which is used continuously out of context.

Neither has any one that believes in the gospel of grace of Christ say there is no repentance in the believer. In fact, believers in the "gospel of grace " say we should be repenting constantly.

These are all mis-representations of what is really being said. Perhaps it's time to see what is really being said so that these continuous false accusations can be stopped and we can all grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

So, once more no believers in the "gospel of grace" say NOT to obey Christ. Repentance should be happening constantly as we learn new truth. No one says to "sin all you want" as we have said over 100 x times - that grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.

Let's put these false accusations to bed and walk on in the Lord Jesus as we grow in His grace and knowledge and let's encourage each other to walk out what Christ has already done for us.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.




I agree with Grace777X70, but I have come across this "Hyper grace" phrase every so often on here and when I have questioned it it seems to be connected to this once saved always saved thing, which is in itself connected to works. I may be wrong, but that is how it comes across. It may be that I am confusing the two but the rhetoric is very similar.

I know if I chose to walk away from Jesus (god forbid) and refuse the work He completed I know will not see much past the second resurrection, and no amount of grace will provide Jesus going back on that cross to save me again.

This falling from grace could be done in any number of ways, and, it seems to me, is the very thread up holding all or most of the new testament epistles. The main one besides the sinning in the flesh is loosing the Love for our brethren (sisters included). People are too quick to say/imply/hint, that some of us judge others.

If the true love of God is not present within us a loving rebuke or a turn of phrase will seem like judgement, but where true love is, the loving rebuke is turned into life enhancing action. A rebuke without love also shows its self as what it is and where it has come from which is usually jealousy and self interest.
 
B

bikerchaz

Guest
#30
There is no misrepresentation. Your version of grace does teach that behavior doesn't matter in terms of salvation.
I am sorry but here we part ways, behaviour does matter "in terms of salvation"
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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#31
Morality doesn't sanctify, God does. That is something the Lord informed me of, that it is He who sanctifies His children. Its His process. I think with that in mind, in speaking of obedience, rules, and what not, we should be careful in how we present it so that we do not impose our impatience of someone's lack of perfection on to someone and make them feel condemned or terrible. VVe need to extend grace and love to people and let the Lord work on them.

Obedience is a necessity in our walk, but this obedience is found in intimacy.
Does Scripture say: "This is God's will, that He Sanctify you." Setting aside your involvement as an unnecessary willful party?
Or does it say: "This is the will of God, your Sanctification...." (Thessalonians 4:3). Expecting you to participate in the death to the right of yourself, equally disposed, as God deals with Sin and we deal with sins in our New Creation? And yet, ironically it is only in the experiences God places before us that we can come to such a personal revelation of ourselves. But as much as we are responsible to act toward God, God is Supernaturally Faithful towards us first.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus who became for us Sanctification." (1 Col. 1:30).

Thus, we have a two-sided coin here in Sanctification. We have a death side, and we have a life side. The death side Jesus contends will take our role of will to supply; Christ not withstanding. While the life side takes God's role thru Jesus Christ; our will not withstanding. Sanctification requires our coming to the place of death. (Gal. 2:20): only becomes real and not pretentious when we come to the revelation that we are willing to lay down our lives along side the foot of Jesus at the Cross. After all, this is a relationship, and not a dictatorship, or robotic relationship. We were bought at a price, but we must make our will be freely given thru obedience or it is law once more. Our "Aha" moment of "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live...." Must be our experience as God affords its opportunity.

But many of us spend so much time there we become morbid. There is always a tremendous battle before Sanctification is realized - something within us pushing with resentment against the demands of Christ. When the Holy Spirit begins to show us what Sanctification means, the struggle starts immediately. Jesus said, "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate....his own life....he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26).

On the life side of Sanctification there is a mystery; that the perfect qualities of Jesus Christ are imparted as a gift to me, not gradually, but instantly once I enter by faith into the realization that He "became for (me)....Sanctification...." Sanctification means nothing less than the Holiness of Jesus becoming mine and being exhibited in my life.

Thus, it is coupled with the realness of me being crucified with Christ, and the wonderful secret of living a Holy life unpretentiously, then, not imitating Jesus, but actually and honestly letting the perfect qualities of Jesus exhibit themselves in my human flesh, by way of intentionality to obey Christ from the love of my heart, and nothing else lest it be works, or the law. But this, in no way, lessens the need for the fruit to be evident, in successful obedience wrought out by Christ. In fact, it only increases it by the standards of Christs narrow purity over our own..

Sanctification is, "Christ in you...." (Col. 1:27); not compromised by any rebellion in us; Gods forgiveness thru confession not withstanding by way of need and not by way of inevitability.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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#33
I think this touches on what obedience is to lawless grace believers. Obedience is doing those things that facilitate a metaphysical/emotional experience that is assumed to be a relationship with GOD. Doctrine becomes anathema to this mindset, so any NT commandment is viewed as something that possibly should be done, but doesn't have to be done because that would make it OT law and bondage.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong.
ah, here we have our version of bigfoot, the " lawless grace believers " that some on here claim to see, but THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE of them.
seriously dude, before you say anything else about obedience, you should do so by stop tossing around false accusations.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#34
This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....however there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ( this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..= done deal which stems from a past action that is in a completed state continuously in the present

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,

[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (
perfect passive )

 
Sep 4, 2012
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#35
ah, here we have our version of bigfoot, the " lawless grace believers " that some on here claim to see, but THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE of them.
seriously dude, before you say anything else about obedience, you should do so by stop tossing around false accusations.
How is it a false accusation? It is my observation based on what some people here have said and do say. Intolerant much?
 
B

bikerchaz

Guest
#36
Part ways with me, or phony grace?
Thank you Brother, See, I learn all the time Praise Him, behaviour is prompted by grace through faith for without a behaviour that reflects the Love of God shown to us through the death of His son we are not in Him and He is not in us.
PS Good video Grace777X70
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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#37
How is it a false accusation? It is my observation based on what some people here have said and do say.
until you post where someone says- quote- we do not have to be obedient to be saved- end quote-, then it is putting words in people's mouths, falsely accusing.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#38
Here is the other side of the coin for sanctification for us believers.

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is already in us in Christ..in our inner man..the new creation.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior outwardly to reflect our true self in the Lord now. It's definitely a process!.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."



The question remains..is it us doing it by our own self-effort by obeying rules?..or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives.

This determines whether we are living a life of self-righteousness by depending on our doing of good things or depending totally on the grace of Christ living through and in us through an exchanged life powered by the Holy Spirit and the love of Christ in us? Only God and ourselves can answer that question.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#39
ah, here we have our version of bigfoot, the " lawless grace believers " that some on here claim to see, but THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE of them.
seriously dude, before you say anything else about obedience, you should do so by stop tossing around false accusations.

Amen..Unfortunately it's this type of false accusations that cause division and spread malice amongst the brethren. This kind of false accusations needs to stop so that we can have a safe environment to grow in the grace of Christ. We can agree to disagree without the accusations and have respect for each other.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#40
until you post where someone says- quote- we do not have to be obedient to be saved- end quote-, then it is putting words in people's mouths, falsely accusing.
I don't have to do that. I've witnessed it many, many times. If you are genuinely a seeker of truth, then you could ask those people if what I say is true. Go ahead. They won't deal honestly with me if I ask them.