Zone you and I don't often see eye to eye but I have never seen you so angry. I doubt you want the jews to die and you know you don't want the jews to die God knows you don't want the jews to die and that's all that matters. So why get angry if you know that? And calling your brother demonic is not good either,wwjd right?
Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?
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Yesterday I posted in this thread asking folks to step away and calm down, and take a break seeing there were personal attacks.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...on-great-earthly-jerusalem-8.html#post1157998
Coming in this thread after all that, only to point fingers about who causes drama, or about which user is siding with whom, is only going to start the personal attacks back up.
Please if you're going to post in this thread, address the topic of this thread, and not the topic of who sides with whom, or who started what, or who gets whom angry. Doing that defeats the purpose of my previous request for folks to step back and calm down. It ends up stoking the fires again.
Thanks.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...on-great-earthly-jerusalem-8.html#post1157998
Coming in this thread after all that, only to point fingers about who causes drama, or about which user is siding with whom, is only going to start the personal attacks back up.
Please if you're going to post in this thread, address the topic of this thread, and not the topic of who sides with whom, or who started what, or who gets whom angry. Doing that defeats the purpose of my previous request for folks to step back and calm down. It ends up stoking the fires again.
Thanks.
R
the two witnesses are called lampstands...
revelation 11:4..."These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."
what lampstands symbolize is defined for us in chapter one...
revelation 1:20..."As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
so the two witnesses who are two lampstands would be two churches...
interestingly there are two churches that jesus does not criticize in chapters two and three...smyrna and philadelphia...
two churches...very likely in more than one place...could not be said to lie dead in the streets of a single earthly city...so the 'great city' is not earthly jerusalem or any other earthly city...
also you are mistaken in saying that the jews were in babylon the last time they heard from their prophets...actually haggai and zechariah and malachi all prophesied -after- the babylonian exile...and furthermore john the baptist prophesied along the jordan river several centuries later...
finally the 'synagogue of satan' is never mentioned in connection with jerusalem...only smyrna and philadelphia...those same two again?
revelation 11:4..."These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."
what lampstands symbolize is defined for us in chapter one...
revelation 1:20..."As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
so the two witnesses who are two lampstands would be two churches...
interestingly there are two churches that jesus does not criticize in chapters two and three...smyrna and philadelphia...
two churches...very likely in more than one place...could not be said to lie dead in the streets of a single earthly city...so the 'great city' is not earthly jerusalem or any other earthly city...
also you are mistaken in saying that the jews were in babylon the last time they heard from their prophets...actually haggai and zechariah and malachi all prophesied -after- the babylonian exile...and furthermore john the baptist prophesied along the jordan river several centuries later...
finally the 'synagogue of satan' is never mentioned in connection with jerusalem...only smyrna and philadelphia...those same two again?
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Hmm i clearly don't agree with your view on the two prophets but this is interesting. I've never hear it explain this way this is new please continue , So Jerusalem fits the bill on Revelation 18 from head to toe according to your theology yes or no?
Why would God call Jerusalem the Holy city in revelation 11 ?
So God destroys earthly Jerusalem in Revelation 19 ??? And the smoke from Her goes on ascending forever and ever ?
thx and God bless
Why would God call Jerusalem the Holy city in revelation 11 ?
So God destroys earthly Jerusalem in Revelation 19 ??? And the smoke from Her goes on ascending forever and ever ?
thx and God bless
A
all prophets die in Jerusalem.......
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.
A
ladies and gentlemen, we are now witnessing the tactic called poisoning the well.
thank you for your demonstration. however, I find it hard for someone of jewish descent to hate herself, but I'm going to ignore the personal attacks and clarify one point:
the ultimate object of God's wrath is not the WHORE of Bablyon (whom the seven headed beast destroys).
it is not even the seven headed beast. It is SATAN the power behind the evil.
thank you for your demonstration. however, I find it hard for someone of jewish descent to hate herself, but I'm going to ignore the personal attacks and clarify one point:
the ultimate object of God's wrath is not the WHORE of Bablyon (whom the seven headed beast destroys).
it is not even the seven headed beast. It is SATAN the power behind the evil.
R
moses certainly didn't die in jerusalem...
also jesus calls abel a prophet and abel died before jerusalem existed...abraham is called a prophet in genesis and it is unlikely that he died in jerusalem...jeremiah very likely died in egypt...ezekiel and daniel very likely died in exile in babylon...
evidently jesus was not speaking literally in luke 13:33...a lot of scholars think this was basically holy snark...
and you didn't address the fact that babylon is blamed not only for the blood of the prophets but the blood of -everyone- killed on earth...there are literally billions of examples of people being killed outside jerusalem...
also jesus calls abel a prophet and abel died before jerusalem existed...abraham is called a prophet in genesis and it is unlikely that he died in jerusalem...jeremiah very likely died in egypt...ezekiel and daniel very likely died in exile in babylon...
evidently jesus was not speaking literally in luke 13:33...a lot of scholars think this was basically holy snark...
and you didn't address the fact that babylon is blamed not only for the blood of the prophets but the blood of -everyone- killed on earth...there are literally billions of examples of people being killed outside jerusalem...
R
more proof that jesus cannot be said to have died in jerusalem...
john 19:20..."Therefore many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin and in Greek. So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, 'Do not write, "The King of the Jews"; but that He said, "I am King of the Jews."'"
'near the city' obviously rules out the crucifixion taking place in the city...jesus was not crucified in jerusalem...
the 'great city' in revelation where jesus was crucified cannot be jerusalem...
but i guess someone will say it is 'heresy' to believe what the gospel of john says...
john 19:20..."Therefore many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Latin and in Greek. So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, 'Do not write, "The King of the Jews"; but that He said, "I am King of the Jews."'"
'near the city' obviously rules out the crucifixion taking place in the city...jesus was not crucified in jerusalem...
the 'great city' in revelation where jesus was crucified cannot be jerusalem...
but i guess someone will say it is 'heresy' to believe what the gospel of john says...
A
you are sounding a little bitter Rachel, you sure you don't want to take a walk and cool down?
"evidently jesus was not speaking literally in luke 13:33"
if He is not speaking of Jerusalem in the literal sense but still says He will die there, don't you think you should use that same logic to the other verses you have so much trouble with?
that perhaps its not as literal as you would like them to be?
"evidently jesus was not speaking literally in luke 13:33"
if He is not speaking of Jerusalem in the literal sense but still says He will die there, don't you think you should use that same logic to the other verses you have so much trouble with?
that perhaps its not as literal as you would like them to be?
Luke 13:33 is very interseting i dunno why Jesus said this or why it was recorded as it is written ? was it for particular prophets had pick by him or all of them ,perhaps the wise men of cc can help a young man like me out on this matter?
Moses did not die in Jerusalem Numbers 20:12 , John where did he die after writting revelation Patmos Greece or Jerusalem he was a seer was he not or mabe our history on many things have been tainted???
God bless
Moses did not die in Jerusalem Numbers 20:12 , John where did he die after writting revelation Patmos Greece or Jerusalem he was a seer was he not or mabe our history on many things have been tainted???
God bless
A
I don't understand why its so hard to grasp.
Perhaps because it makes people rethink everything they thought they knew about scriptures?
I may not have all the answers, but I'm NOT going to twist scriptures around to fit what I already think Revelation means.
some questions I would ask after reading those passages.
1. What plagues?
2. what is written that needs to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple?
3. do they match?
~
oh look an answer to question number 2. Jeremiah 7 tells us about a prophecy concerning Jerusalem. the same prophecy that Daniel 9 refers to when he asks about the end of the Babylonian captivity. Which also features the Messiah.
to understand how the "blood of the prophets and saints" could be required of one city, one has to understand the use of that phrase. In the Old testament you have people say "the blood be upon your own head". I could provide the verses but it late. Basically the "blood" is not literal as in that's where they died but spiritually attributed GUILT of having caused them to die.
Did you notice how both cities are made desolate?
parallel verse for Matthew 24: 15
Daniel 9: 27
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Perhaps because it makes people rethink everything they thought they knew about scriptures?
I may not have all the answers, but I'm NOT going to twist scriptures around to fit what I already think Revelation means.
some questions I would ask after reading those passages.
1. What plagues?
2. what is written that needs to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple?
3. do they match?
~
oh look an answer to question number 2. Jeremiah 7 tells us about a prophecy concerning Jerusalem. the same prophecy that Daniel 9 refers to when he asks about the end of the Babylonian captivity. Which also features the Messiah.
to understand how the "blood of the prophets and saints" could be required of one city, one has to understand the use of that phrase. In the Old testament you have people say "the blood be upon your own head". I could provide the verses but it late. Basically the "blood" is not literal as in that's where they died but spiritually attributed GUILT of having caused them to die.
Did you notice how both cities are made desolate?
parallel verse for Matthew 24: 15
Daniel 9: 27
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
A
why the figurative language in Revelation you may ask?
IF you wanted to send a message to your people to flee the destruction of Jerusalem, which might be inspected by enemy Roman troops, wouldn't you write in coded language?
Otherwise those troops might just prevent the mass exodus of the Remnant from the city.
but don't worry. Satan is still recruiting for his army:
Revelation 20
[h=3][/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
IF you wanted to send a message to your people to flee the destruction of Jerusalem, which might be inspected by enemy Roman troops, wouldn't you write in coded language?
Otherwise those troops might just prevent the mass exodus of the Remnant from the city.
but don't worry. Satan is still recruiting for his army:
Revelation 20
[h=3][/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
R
well it is impossible to take luke 13:33 literally because that would make it contradict the account of the death of moses on mount nebo in deuteronomy for example...
on the other hand there is no problem with taking john 19:20 and hebrews 13:12 literally...problems would only arise if you insist on the preconception that jerusalem is the 'great city'
on the other hand there is no problem with taking john 19:20 and hebrews 13:12 literally...problems would only arise if you insist on the preconception that jerusalem is the 'great city'
R
from history we know that jeremiah 7:34 was fulfilled for jerusalem in 586 BC...however revelation 18:23 was -not- fulfilled for jerusalem in AD 70...jews continued to live in jerusalem for decades after AD 70...the lights of lamps were still there...and the voices of brides and bridegrooms...
your gospel passages were fulfilled in AD 70...but none of them say anything about 'babylon'... just being desolate does not automatically make a city babylon...the canaanite city of ai is called desolate in joshua 8...a place in moab is called desolate in isaiah 15 and jeremiah 48...edom is called desolate in isaiah 34 and jeremiah 49...literal babylon is called desolate in jeremiah 50 and 51...tyre is called desolate in ezekiel 26...a place in egypt is called desolate in ezekiel 30... so desolation is not some definite identifier for mystery babylon...lots of cities have become desolate...jerusalem can become desolate without requiring that we identify it as mystery babylon...
your gospel passages were fulfilled in AD 70...but none of them say anything about 'babylon'... just being desolate does not automatically make a city babylon...the canaanite city of ai is called desolate in joshua 8...a place in moab is called desolate in isaiah 15 and jeremiah 48...edom is called desolate in isaiah 34 and jeremiah 49...literal babylon is called desolate in jeremiah 50 and 51...tyre is called desolate in ezekiel 26...a place in egypt is called desolate in ezekiel 30... so desolation is not some definite identifier for mystery babylon...lots of cities have become desolate...jerusalem can become desolate without requiring that we identify it as mystery babylon...
To the best of my knowledge what i can understand from the scripture
1. He was crucified at Golgotha (which means "the place of the skull"). That is outside of Jerusalem John 19:20
2. Golgotha ? or where the prophets lie in the public square ? where is the exact location of Golgotha there are many diffrent site from what i read.
3. I dunno why great city added to this verse , i do not understand why Luke 13:33 written the way it is also?
Luke 13:33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
perhaps the wisemen of cc can help
God bless
1. He was crucified at Golgotha (which means "the place of the skull"). That is outside of Jerusalem John 19:20
2. Golgotha ? or where the prophets lie in the public square ? where is the exact location of Golgotha there are many diffrent site from what i read.
3. I dunno why great city added to this verse , i do not understand why Luke 13:33 written the way it is also?
Luke 13:33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
perhaps the wisemen of cc can help
God bless