Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Justification is the judicial act of the Father, who declares a guilty sinner righteous based on the merits of Christ's sinless life and atoning death through faith.

A. Justificatiin is the act of God

B. On the basis and merits of Christ

C faith is the condition

D. Having heard the Gospel and bieving, we are sealed with the Spirit

The apostle Paul declares that justification is by faith, that God justifies those who believe through the propitiation of Christ. Being justified by faith we have peace with. Having heard the Word, you believed, and having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 2:14), by grace you are saved, through faith (Ephesians 2:9), to him that does not, but believes on God who justtifies the ungodly (Romans 4), etc.
Justification for eternal salvation is by faith of Jesus Christ. we are saved by grace through faith of Christ, his faithfulness to go to the cross.. After we are regenerated and given the Holy Spirit,(capital "H" and capital "S") and after we believed ( we do not have the ability to believe the things of the Spirit until after regeneration, 1 Cor 2:14) ye were sealed with that holy spirit (small "h" and small "s") of promise, witch is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance. Romans 4- Abraham's faith is counted for righteousness, why?, because he believed on him (God, that justifieth the ungodly). Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness, but it was God who was responsible for his justification and that happened on the cross.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Righteousness is based on the merits of Christ's work, and is granted freely to those who believe and trust in the Atonement in the Life He gave for us/on our behalf That is the focal point of the book of Romans.
And who is it that believes? Answer; Those who have been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:5), so they can discern the things of the Spirit, unlike, the carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14 that cannot discern the things of the Spirit. John 6:39 says all that Christ died for will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God for God's acceptance, not to man for man's acceptance. Yes it was on the merits of Christ's work, not on the merit of man's believing.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Righteousness is based on the merits of Christ's work, and is granted freely to those who believe and trust in the Atonement in the Life He gave for us/on our behalf That is the focal point of the book of Romans.
That is why it is called salvation by God's grace, freely, because it is not contingent upon any actions of man. MAN'S BELIEVING IN THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT ALWAYS FOLLOWS REGENERATION.
 

Macabeus

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And who is it that believes? Answer; Those who have been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:5), so they can discern the things of the Spirit, unlike, the carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14 that cannot discern the things of the Spirit. John 6:39 says all that Christ died for will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God for God's acceptance, not to man for man's acceptance.
Agree for the most part with this post. The thing I disagree with is regeneration before faith. Faith comes before justification, and justification is similtaneous with regeneration, or else you have a bunch of born again sinners that are still under the penalty and guilt of sin. Justification removes the guilt and penalty of sin, and justification is granted to the one who believes in Christ Jesus, see last three verses of Romans 4

No new birth without imputed righteousness. They always come together, are inseperable. And God imputes Christ's righteousness to those who believe, see last 3 verses of Romans 4.

Have to be away for a couple days, but nice chatting with you.

Blessings
 

ForestGreenCook

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Agree for the most part with this post. The thing I disagree with is regeneration before faith. Faith comes before justification, and justification is similtaneous with regeneration, or else you have a bunch of born again sinners that are still under the penalty and guilt of sin. Justification removes the guilt and penalty of sin, and justification is granted to the one who believes in Christ Jesus, see last three verses of Romans 4

No new birth without imputed righteousness. They always come together, are inseperable. And God imputes Christ's righteousness to those who believe, see last 3 verses of Romans 4.

Have to be away for a couple days, but nice chatting with you.

Blessings
Justification was bought with the price of Jesus's life on the cross. He made those that he died for just before God and God looks upon them as holy and without blame. Their sins are as far away from God as the east is from the west and he remembers them no more, as far as their eternal security is concerned. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5). The Holy Spirit comes in regeneration. No Spirit, No spiritual faith. 1 Cor 2:14 explains this, that the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot discern the things of the Spirit. No Spirit, No spiritual faith.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Agree for the most part with this post. The thing I disagree with is regeneration before faith. Faith comes before justification, and justification is similtaneous with regeneration, or else you have a bunch of born again sinners that are still under the penalty and guilt of sin. Justification removes the guilt and penalty of sin, and justification is granted to the one who believes in Christ Jesus, see last three verses of Romans 4

No new birth without imputed righteousness. They always come together, are inseperable. And God imputes Christ's righteousness to those who believe, see last 3 verses of Romans 4.

Have to be away for a couple days, but nice chatting with you.

Blessings
The catch is in verse 24, IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM. The natural man cannot believe on the things of the Spirit until after he is born of the Spirit.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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The thing I disagree with is regeneration before faith. Faith comes before justification, and justification is similtaneous with regeneration, or else you have a bunch of born again sinners that are still under the penalty and guilt of sin.
That is correct. Those who are justified by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and after that sinners are *born of the Spirit* (regenerated). Calvinism puts the cart before the horse because there is a very poor understanding of the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture gives us the correct sequence:

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL AND THE CONVICTION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SEEN
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


THE COMMAND TO REPENT FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS IS PROCLAIMED
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS CONFIRMED TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


MORE GOSPEL IS PREACHED FOR THE SALVATION OF SOULS
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

THE GOSPEL IS BELIEVED, THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVED, THEN BELIEVERS ARE BAPTIZED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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That birth happens via the Gospel of Christ.
Yes, I hold that new birth is when the person hears and believes they are immedietely regenerate, fully justified, and set apart to God. Then growth needs to begin
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yes, I hold that new birth is when the person hears and believes they are immedietely regenerate, fully justified, and set apart to God. Then growth needs to begin
Needs or will?

Who does the growing? God or the person?
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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That is correct. Those who are justified by grace through faith receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and after that sinners are *born of the Spirit* (regenerated). Calvinism puts the cart before the horse because there is a very poor understanding of the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture gives us the correct sequence:

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL AND THE CONVICTION BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SEEN
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

THE COMMAND TO REPENT FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS IS PROCLAIMED
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS CONFIRMED TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

MORE GOSPEL IS PREACHED FOR THE SALVATION OF SOULS
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

THE GOSPEL IS BELIEVED, THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVED, THEN BELIEVERS ARE BAPTIZED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Exactly what I believe. But I have spoken to Calvinist who hold faith and regeneration to be similtaneous upon the hearing of the Word, the botfh happen at the same time. I wouldn't have a problem with that position
 

Macabeus

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Needs or will?

Who does the growing? God or the person?
2 Corinthians 7: 1. Perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord

,and another passage gives the imperative to believers to grow in the grace and knowledge

Add to your faith virtue, and to virtue, knowledge, etc
I
Mortify the deeds of the flesh, (listening to a book on this by John Owen, a Calvinist)

Let us move on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of... 1 Cor 3 I believe

God has given us means of Grace for our sanctification
 
Mar 14, 2011
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2 Corinthians 7: 1. Perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord

,and another passage gives the imperative to believers to grow in the grace and knowledge

Add to your faith virtue, and to virtue, knowledge, etc
I
Mortify the deeds of the flesh, (listening to a book on this by John Owen, a Calvinist)

Let us move on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of...

God has given us means of Grace for our sanctification
Yet God said he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (God is the one doing the sanctification work)

While I agree, We act on our faith to be Sanctified, God will not force us, I also believe that if we have true saving faith, We will act on that faith, and every step of faith makes our faith grow. Because God proves his faithfullness. I think we must give credit where credit is due.

And I still have the same question. Must or will? There is a huge difference there.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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Yet God said he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (God is the one doing the sanctification work)

While I agree, We act on our faith to be Sanctified, God will not force us, I also believe that if we have true saving faith, We will act on that faith, and every step of faith makes our faith grow. Because God proves his faithfullness. I think we must give credit where credit is due.

And I still have the same question. Must or will? There is a huge difference there.
In position we are perfect, but not in practice or maturity. I am not saying we become more saved, we are saved entirely at conversion. But it is a matter of us working out what God worked in. And it is God who works in us to will and to do of His Good Pleasure

Every text I quoted is an imperative, which means it must done. And if we are truly God's elect, it will be done, but some much slower than others, not because of God , but because of various degrees of dilligence. That is why the elect are instructed to be dilligent.
 

Macabeus

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The catch is in verse 24, IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM. The natural man cannot believe on the things of the Spirit until after he is born of the Spirit.
Jesus did not say no one can come to me unless he is born of God, He said no one can come unless drawn. Hear the Gospel, drawn, believe, come, regenerated, understanding the things of the Spirit follows
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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Justification was bought with the price of Jesus's life on the cross. He made those that he died for just before God and God looks upon them as holy and without blame. Their sins are as far away from God as the east is from the west and he remembers them no more, as far as their eternal security is concerned. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5). The Holy Spirit comes in regeneration. No Spirit, No spiritual faith. 1 Cor 2:14 explains this, that the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot discern the things of the Spirit. No Spirit, No spiritual faith.
We are not eternally justified as you erroneously claim my friend. You are espousing eternal vital union, or also called eternal justification. We were born lost, born condemned in Adam. Our justification takes place in time when He saves us via the effectual calling of the gospel.

You need to discard you hardshellism my friend, it is doing you no favors.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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Exactly what I believe. But I have spoken to Calvinist who hold faith and regeneration to be similtaneous upon the hearing of the Word, the botfh happen at the same time. I wouldn't have a problem with that position
That is my position as well, my friend. I believe that regeneration and conversion, though not the same thing, happen together.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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Thanks for answering brother.

I agree that not everyone is always healed. I believe it depends on God's will. I have seen some healed, and some not healed. I have been healed myself (DOCTOR VERIFIED) but there is a bunch of stuff I HAVENT been healed from.

I dont know how God operates or where, and its none of my business really.

“And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.” - 1 John 5:14
Brother, I hope I have presented my view in a cogent and scriptural manner. When I read of the miracles done back when the bible was being written, I can not find any of them being done in today's world. We see people raised from the dead, limbs restored, sight to the blind(they can do this somewhat now, but its a surgical procedure not laying on of hands as was done in the those days), para and quadriplegic people walking again, etc. If these gifts were still alive today, we'd see more of them, other than these TV hucksters who hire a bunch of con artists to play the part.
 

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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Yes, I hold that new birth is when the person hears and believes they are immedietely regenerate, fully justified, and set apart to God. Then growth needs to begin
This is completely true, God uses the means of his Gospel to accomplish this. Yet we have one here that denies this and has those who are lost on their way to heaven that do not need to hear the Gospel, don't need to even know or believe in Christ, or God, yet they're heaven bound. If any person according to him simply believes in anything spiritual, it means he's regenerate, on his way to heaven. The gospel to him is that God only gives us a little deliverance here in the world if we believe in it.

God bless!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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In position we are perfect, but not in practice or maturity. I am not saying we become more saved, we are saved entirely at conversion. But it is a matter of us working out what God worked in. And it is God who works in us to will and to do of His Good Pleasure

Every text I quoted is an imperative, which means it must done. And if we are truly God's elect, it will be done, but some much slower than others, not because of God , but because of various degrees of dilligence. That is why the elect are instructed to be dilligent.
I still hate the word must. It implies it must be accomplished or something will be taken away. Or you better do it or else.think of the unloving parent pointing a finger etc etc.

Other than that, I agree.