Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Mar 14, 2011
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So how do you resist saving grace? Are you saved because you did not reject grace?
No, am saved because god offered me a gift, and i got on my knees like the tax collector.

While others he offered the same grace and they said no
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Answer what? Your mishandling and poor exegesis of the Prodigal Son? I have answered every question you asked me
So would the prodigal son have lost his salvation or not if he died before coming back.
Do i have to ask again? Stop saying you havhave answered my question when you have not?


Sorry i do not buy you interpretation, it fits many people who stayed and did all this work in the church, while other true children left, and came back and were treated as if they never left. While the ones who stayed in worked their tails off seemed to be left like they were lowere people when they never were.
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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No, I believe that the fact that one is saved will determine how they live. Just as I already said

For example,do those who hate have eternal life in them?

according to John, no

Isthe fact that they don't hate the determining factor in if they go to heaven?

no, the fact that they have God's life in them the fact they love
You single out "hate" but what about other sins? Since you sin daily, how can you claim to have eternal life?

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
 
Dec 27, 2018
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No, am saved because god offered me a gift, and i got on my knees like the tax collector.

While others he offered the same grace and they said no
So you had to receive grace by faith to be saved, and I'm a heretic because I believe that believers are kept by the power of God through faith?
 
Dec 27, 2018
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So would the prodigal son have lost his salvation or not if he died before coming back.
Do i have to ask again? Stop saying you havhave answered my question when you have not?


Sorry i do not buy you interpretation, it fits many people who stayed and did all this work in the church, while other true children left, and came back and were treated as if they tonever left. While the ones who stayed in worked their tails off seemed to be left like they were lowere people when they never were.
The Prodigal Son represents the Publicans and sinners who to Jesus. Are you saying they were saved and eternally secure before they came to Jesus?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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which one is only wanting to proclaim sin's dominion over all forever. Really man you are proclaiming sin.
Never said that. Never advocated that, Jim.

Stop it.

I made an honest and biblical statement when I said we all will continue to sin until the day we die. The Old Man is not dead in us, but now is at war with the Spirit. We still have free will to choose to obey or rebel. We rebel every single time we sin.

Is that true or not?

If you think Jesus only died so you can have a clean conscience in your sin, you are wrong brother.
Never said that.

If you think being reborn, coming to KNOW God is real and Jesus Christ IS His Son isn't a forever life altering event, then we are not talking about the same God.
Never said that either.

What exactly is a Christian?
One who has come to the knowledge that he is a sinner and cannot save himself. One who has thrown himself upon the mercy of Jesus Christ through belief that He died on the cross to pay the price for his personal sins - past, present, and future. One who believes the promise of the Lord that He will grant eternal life to anyone who comes to Him for it. One who believes salvation is entirely a gift that cannot be revoked, lost, or given back. A salvation that is never in jeopardy based upon performance. We have been given the righteousness of Christ through imputation. We are as holy, and sinless as Jesus is, for as long as Jesus is. Being Born Again is a one time event, based upon the instantaneous sealing of the Holy Spirit, and even a lack of future belief or apostasy, cannot change a Christian's eternal destiny. God will remain faithful even if we are faithless.

Which is why God receives all of the glory for our salvation, from start to finish.

Clear enough?
 
Dec 27, 2018
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You single out "hate" but what about other sins? Since you sin daily, how can you claim to have eternal life?

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
I already answered this in depth several times. It is wrong for you to keep replying without listening to what the other is saying.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I already answered this in depth several times. It is wrong for you to keep replying without listening to what the other is saying.
Untrue. I have answered to the best of my ability, but you simply reject all answers out of hand.

You keep pointing to performance as proof one is a Christian, when performance is a poor indicator, simply because people from cults and other religions can perform good works as well, if not better than, most Christians.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So you had to receive grace by faith to be saved, and I'm a heretic because I believe that believers are kept by the power of God through faith?

Do you believe there is any way possible a person can los salvation, by your interpretation of the prodigal son and calling out certain sins, and saying a person has to be in faith it appeara you do.

THAT is what our problem is,, you sem like so many to say one thing, but believe another
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So would the prodigal son have lost his salvation or not if he died before coming back.
Do i have to ask again? Stop saying you havhave answered my question when you have not?


Sorry i do not buy you interpretation, it fits many people who stayed and did all this work in the church, while other true children left, and came back and were treated as if they never left. While the ones who stayed in worked their tails off seemed to be left like they were lowere people when they never were.
Agreed. Interesting, throughout the story, the prodigal never ceased being a son. The son represents believers who do nothing for the Lord here on this earth and have squandered their inheritance on selfish living. See also 1 Corinthians 3.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The Prodigal Son represents the Publicans and sinners who to Jesus. Are you saying they were saved and eternally secure before they came to Jesus?
Wow man, says who?

And by the way, i have been a prodigal son, so i am not making things up. There are people who will say f I died while i was out in the wold i would have ended up lost. Do you believe this or not?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Never said that. Never advocated that, Jim.

Stop it.

I made an honest and biblical statement when I said we all will continue to sin until the day we die. The Old Man is not dead in us, but now is at war with the Spirit. We still have free will to choose to obey or rebel. We rebel every single time we sin.

Is that true or not?



Never said that.



Never said that either.



One who has come to the knowledge that he is a sinner and cannot save himself. One who has thrown himself upon the mercy of Jesus Christ through belief that He died on the cross to pay the price for his personal sins - past, present, and future. One who believes the promise of the Lord that He will grant eternal life to anyone who comes to Him for it. One who believes salvation is entirely a gift that cannot be revoked, lost, or given back. A salvation that is never in jeopardy based upon performance. We have been given the righteousness of Christ through imputation. We are as holy, and sinless as Jesus is, for as long as Jesus is. Being Born Again is a one time event, based upon the instantaneous sealing of the Holy Spirit, and even a lack of future belief or apostasy, cannot change a Christian's eternal destiny. God will remain faithful even if we are faithless.

Which is why God receives all of the glory for our salvation, from start to finish.

Clear enough?
So what does "come to a knowledge", mean? I mean I hear "I believe, I believe", but He tells us even the demons believe and tremble. I mean I can testify to you right here and now that I thought I had "come to a knowledge" before, just like you I could throw out these key points, knew just what to say, and knew Him not. I heard you list all things we "know", and "proclaim", but "me", as a real life human being, what is the difference in me as opposed to the fallen man next to me. Not what I "know" or can repeat back to you, what has God given me that I didn't have before, I also know that He grants us forgiveness, but what I'm asking is how does being forgiven make me different from the man in his sin? Is there a difference in how we are?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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So what does "come to a knowledge", mean? I mean I hear "I believe, I believe",
To biblically believe, one must believe Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose again on the third day as full payment of their personal sins. No hoops, no strings, no attachments of any kind.

"Nothing in my hands I bring, only to thy cross I cling."

what I'm asking is how does being forgiven make me different from the man in his sin? Is there a difference in how we are?
Our desires change. One should indeed seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord. For those that rebel, God will chastize them as any good Father will. The point is, we still have free will to choose to rebel. And we do - every time we sin. Which is every day. The other point is, because salvation is entirely a gift, one's behavior after conversion, whether good or bad, has no bearing on their eternal destiny.

A Christian couldn't go to hell even if they wanted to.

Look at any of the heroes of the faith in Scripture. They were saved, but many committed gross sins. Were they chastised? Yes. Were they lost? No.

God has already judged Jesus for our sins. Payment in full. Past, present, and future. How many sins were in your future when Jesus died on the cross?

All of them.

Either He paid for them all - even the sin of backsliding - or He paid for none of them.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
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Agreed. Interesting, throughout the story, the prodigal never ceased being a son. The son represents believers who do nothing for the Lord here on this earth and have squandered their inheritance on selfish living. See also 1 Corinthians 3.
Amen.

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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To biblically believe, one must believe Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose again on the third day as full payment of their personal sins. No hoops, no strings, no attachments of any kind.

"Nothing in my hands I bring, only to thy cross I cling."



Our desires change. One should indeed seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord. For those that rebel, God will chastize them as any good Father will. The point is, we still have free will to choose to rebel. And we do - every time we sin. Which is every day. The other point is, because salvation is entirely a gift, one's behavior after conversion, whether good or bad, has no bearing on their eternal destiny.

A Christian couldn't go to hell even if they wanted to.

Look at any of the heroes of the faith in Scripture. They were saved, but many committed gross sins. Were they chastised? Yes. Were they lost? No.

God has already judged Jesus for our sins. Payment in full. Past, present, and future. How many sins were in your future when Jesus died on the cross?

All of them.

Either He paid for them all - even the sin of backsliding - or He paid for none of them.
Listen I truly agree with most everything you said here, but now all of a sudden, for the first time, you are saying things like "Our desires change", "One should indeed seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord", and "God will chastise them as any good Father will". I couldn't agree more, but why and how do these things change? what is different about us that changes us. BTW do you not understand that the things we do because of the gift of salvation, the very things you're talking about here are the "works" I'm speaking about. I even said I "hate" calling them works because they are now really just my desires, only by His grace. Did you realize this?

I also FULLY agree the Jesus will lose NONE the Father has given Him, the only point I disagree with here, in a way, is How you say "one's behavior after conversion, whether good or bad, has no bearing on their eternal destiny." Which again I technically agree with, my problem I giving this so much lip service, I do not believe the Christian should ever want to give sin power over Jesus. You don't think that's what you are doing, but that is what you've been standing on this whole conversation. On "we still sin", as if it's the most important message. That's you not me, go back and read, I believe we should be proclaiming the freedom from the bondage of sin and the power of Christ to change the world, not "we always sin". Why is this so hard for you to understand? Do you understand the ONLY point I've been trying to make to you this whole time? Please tell me in 1 sentence the main problem I have with what you're saying. To be fair and start I'll do the same. You are saying that the Christian is always saved not matter what and will always sin. (Please note the fact that until this last comment there was NO mention about any kind of change that happens in a man as a result of salvation. None. Is that not an important enough thing to mention?)

I just want to point out lastly you still haven't told me what about man is changed as a result of salvation. You tell me what we think, how we feel, how we should behave, and how God will correct us now, but not what is different between the saved and unsaved. This is key and in the flesh we can not see it. What is different brother?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Listen I truly agree with most everything you said here, but now all of a sudden, for the first time, you are saying things like "Our desires change", "One should indeed seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord", and "God will chastise them as any good Father will". I couldn't agree more, but why and how do these things change? what is different about us that changes us. BTW "do you not understand that the things we do because of the gift of salvation, the very things you're talking about here are the "works" I'm speaking about. I even said I "hate" calling them works because they are now really just my desires, only by His grace.
Sorry, I thought it was rather obvious. Our only point of contention Jim, seems to be one "proving" salvation via good works. That a Christian will automatically do them.

We still have our free will. God doesn't override that at conversion. Christians can choose to be carnal. Just like the believers at Corinth that Paul chastised. Never once did he say by their behavior were they not believers.

By our free will, we choose to sin - daily. That's not an excuse, just an obvious fact.

I do not believe the Christian should ever want to give sin power over Jesus. You don't think that's what you are doing, but that is what you've been standing on this whole conversation. On "we still sin", as if it's the most important message.
It actually is in regard to this conversation.

So many that point to their good works never want to acknowledge that they still sin regularly. And they won't accept the biblical fact that even if one sin attributed to them after conversion isn't covered by Christ's shed blood on the cross, they are lost with no hope, because Jesus isn't coming back to shed more blood for any unforgiven sins. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission. Which is why I keep saying, either Jesus paid for every sin - past, present, and future - or he paid for none.

What's the use of paying for 99.9% of sins if even one attributed sin to us will damn us?

I believe we should be proclaiming the freedom from the bondage of sin and the power of Christ to change the world,
The unsaved cannot say no to sin because it's their only nature. We, having now two natures, have the power to say no. But even when we don't, our salvation is never in question.

Please tell me in 1 sentence the main problem I have with what you're saying.
You seem to be saying that those Christians who produce little or no good works are only giving "lip service" to Christ and are not saved.

You are saying that the Christian is always saved not matter what and will always sin.
Yep. Your own life bears the truth of that. If not, let me know when you have stopped sinning completely.

what is different between the saved and unsaved.
The saved have the indwelling Holy Spirit, the unsaved do not.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
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And if it is God's intention to keep us in the most holy faith, does He fail at that intention?

So no one can resist His will, unless they're a Christian? A Christian can resist God's will by departing from the faith that God wills to keep Him in?

Believing a true believer can die in unbelief is inconsistent with Calvinist, for


So if it is God's intention to keep His Elect in the faith, does He fail at that intention? That would be very inconsistent Calvinist. So I assume you're not a Calvist then.
Exactly. You know... I have been thinking that God actually fails at that... 'many are called, few are chosen'.. What does this mean. Does it mean God couldn't save the many that He called or that He called them just for fun.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
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Never said that. Never advocated that, Jim.

Stop it.

I made an honest and biblical statement when I said we all will continue to sin until the day we die. The Old Man is not dead in us, but now is at war with the Spirit. We still have free will to choose to obey or rebel. We rebel every single time we sin.

Is that true or not?



Never said that.



Never said that either.



One who has come to the knowledge that he is a sinner and cannot save himself. One who has thrown himself upon the mercy of Jesus Christ through belief that He died on the cross to pay the price for his personal sins - past, present, and future. One who believes the promise of the Lord that He will grant eternal life to anyone who comes to Him for it. One who believes salvation is entirely a gift that cannot be revoked, lost, or given back. A salvation that is never in jeopardy based upon performance. We have been given the righteousness of Christ through imputation. We are as holy, and sinless as Jesus is, for as long as Jesus is. Being Born Again is a one time event, based upon the instantaneous sealing of the Holy Spirit, and even a lack of future belief or apostasy, cannot change a Christian's eternal destiny. God will remain faithful even if we are faithless.

Which is why God receives all of the glory for our salvation, from start to finish.

Clear enough?
That means, i can do what i want because i don't feel like doing the right things. My grand dad is lonely. I don't have any care for him in my heart, therefore i will allow him to be lonely till the day he dies and yet be in heaven and see Jesus without having any guilt about leaving my grand dad unattended because of a lack of love for him. Hmm. And also... I can do whatever sin i want because i feel like doing it and then meet Jesus in heaven without Him asking me why i was lusting and sinning. Uhmm... And i can commit suicide also...because lately, even today i wanted to die and then find myself in heaven with Jesus. If that is true, then today is the day i should jump from my balcony, i have had enough of this life anyways and what more.. there's no danger to my eternity on doing so... I will only reach God sooner. Wow. Claps.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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'many are called, few are chosen'.. What does this mean. Does it mean God couldn't save the many that He called or that He called them just for fun.
It means God made available to all a pardon. He calls on everyone to accept this pardon (the forgiveness of sins through Christ) but only the "few" take Him up on the offer. God "chooses" or "elects" to save any who will call upon His Son Jesus for salvation.

A pardon is only as good as it's acceptance.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
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It means God made available to all a pardon. He calls on everyone to accept this pardon (the forgiveness of sins through Christ) but only the "few" take Him up on the offer. God "chooses" or "elects" to save any who will call upon His Son Jesus for salvation.

A pardon is only as good as it's acceptance.
Then why Adam's sin flowed to everybody without asking them whether they accept it... And why Christ's forgiveness doesn't spread in that speed to everyone