Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
Try post 552 and 557 as well as about a dozen passages that talk about the difference between struggling with sin and sinning defiantly.
All sin is defiant. To God, sin is sin, whether you sin through "struggle" or you do with little to no thought.

It's like if a Christian "struggles" with the sin of pornography. Does God judge it's not a sin and looks the other way when the Christian indulges?

No. It's still sin even though one struggles with it.

All sins are committed by decision.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,614
2,637
113
Then you're having Paul contradict himself when he wrote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (present tense)
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth (present tense) no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (present tense)
For the good that I would I do not: (present tense) but the evil which I would not, that I do. (present tense) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present (present tense) with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (The Spirit)
But I see another law in my members, warring (present tense) against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in (present tense) my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve (present tense) the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Again, if the flesh (the "Old Man") was dead, we would no longer sin.
Why is it me having Paul contradict himself and not you?

FTR, I don't think Paul is contradicting himself at all. he KNOWS his flesh is dead and crucified with Christ, just as he KNOWS he is a Child of God no matter what satan does , yet he KNOWS he will still be tempted by both.

Have you, or have you not been crucified with Christ?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
Why is it me having Paul contradict himself and not you?

FTR, I don't think Paul is contradicting himself at all. he KNOWS his flesh is dead and crucified with Christ, just as he KNOWS he is a Child of God no matter what satan does , yet he KNOWS he will still be tempted by both.

Have you, or have you not been crucified with Christ?
And yet he speaks of his continued struggle with the flesh that is "warring" within him against the Spirit. Every statement he made was in the present tense, which I highlighted, and you seem to have ignored.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,614
2,637
113
And yet he speaks of his continued struggle with the flesh that is "warring" within him against the Spirit. Every statement he made was in the present tense, which I highlighted, and you seem to have ignored.

I didn't ignore anything. Our dead flesh will continue to try and tell us it's alive, that's the struggle Paul is talking about. That's the whole key. We MUST reckon it dead, because it was crucified with Christ.


Have you been crucified with Christ?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
Have you been crucified with Christ?
Yes. Which is why I am aware of the war within. Unsaved people can't have that recognition, as they only have the one nature.

Like Paul, who was saved, yet said of himself, "The chief of sinners, I am" (1 Timothy 1:15)

Not I "was".
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,614
2,637
113
Yes. Which is why I am aware of the war within. Unsaved people can't have that recognition, as they only have the one nature.

Like Paul, who was saved, yet said of himself, "The chief of sinners, I am" (1 Timothy 1:15)

Not I "was".
Crucified means you died right? What was crucified?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
Crucified means you died right? What was crucified?
You died to sin, Penn?

Yet, do you still sin?

If the Old Man is dead - Why do you still sin?

If crucified means "dead" in that verse, and not "cut off" or "separated" - then you could not continue to sin. could you?

Since you believe the Old Man (the "flesh") is dead, then how do you stack up to this verse?:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,614
2,637
113
Crucified means you died right? What was crucified?
See. This is the thing. If our flesh WASN'T crucified, we would STILL be slaves to sin. The ONLY way to be free is to be in Christ and crucified with Him. If our flesh is still alive, we aren't a NEW Creation. Our New heart doesn't live alongside of a living fleshly heart.

This is why Paul tells us to reckon ourselves dead. Now we still sin. And we will until we receive our glorified bodies. The struggle Paul felt, that we ALL feel, is that our New heart lives in our dead flesh, that tries to deceive us that it is still alive.

I would highly recommend the book "The normal Christian life" by Watchman Nee. He deals with this issue brilliantly. $5 bucks on Amazon.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
See. This is the thing. If our flesh WASN'T crucified, we would STILL be slaves to sin. The ONLY way to be free is to be in Christ and crucified with Him. If our flesh is still alive, we aren't a NEW Creation. Our New heart doesn't live alongside of a living fleshly heart.

This is why Paul tells us to reckon ourselves dead. Now we still sin. And we will until we receive our glorified bodies. The struggle Paul felt, that we ALL feel, is that our New heart lives in our dead flesh, that tries to deceive us that it is still alive.

I would highly recommend the book "The normal Christian life" by Watchman Nee. He deals with this issue brilliantly. $5 bucks on Amazon.

Again, explain 1 John 3:9 apart from having two active natures.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
R
Whatever, i am done with people who do nithing but play games

As i said, i was a prodigal son, i think experience trumps what people think spmething says.

You and budman have fun, i am out
When you interpret a parable, you first examine setting, who is being addressed, purpose, why the parable is being told, etc. So let's do that, shall we?

A. Setting- Pharisees complain about Jesus eating with sinners

Who addressed to- Scribes and Pharisees

Purpose. To rebuke the Pharisees for criticizing Jesus for eating with sinners

The parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, lost son all have the same elements and meaning except there is an element ommitted on the prodigal son, which we will look at later. By the way, when interpreting a parable, you look for one main truth.

Here are the elements that are common to all three stories in Luke 15

A. Possessions. 100 sheep, 10 coins, 2 sons.

B. Loss. One is lost in each story

C. Search. There is a search for that which is lost. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost

D. The lost is found

E. A call for a celebration.

F. Then the first two stories tell of joy in heaven. The prodigal story just mentions a celebration. Joy is not mentioned. Because the very one who should be rejoicing with His Father is not rejoicing

G. The Father entreats the son to join in the celebration, because it is only fitting to rejoice that the younger son has come home

The meaning of the parable is clear. Jesus is saying that if the Pharisees heart was right they would rejoice in the sinners coming to Jesus

So the question about the prodigal dying in their sins is moot. Because the prodigal in the parable represents one who strays and comes back.

The parable is directed at people who are not happy when a wayward child comes home. And since it is directed at the Pharisees, the elder son is actually the main point

So to ask what happens if the prodigal doesn't come back misses the whole point. The prodigal represents wayward children who come home. No such thing as a prodigal son who doesn't come home, because the passage is VERY CLEAR what the prodigal represents, and the intent is also very clear

Don't assume you're talking to people who haven't taken the time to rightly study God's Word


You and I were prodigal son. That's exactly WHY WE CAME Home. The parable is about the Publicans and sinners, about us and about everyone who comes to Jesus

Last note. The Publicans and sinners were not saves until they came to Jesus. The parable in it's original intent is not about backsliders, although it can be used in that application but that Is an applicantion, Not the original intent which is determined by context.

Good exegesis leads to sound doctrine. Please treat God's word with the respect it deserves, which means it needs to tell you what it means, not you deciding what it means. And being taught by the Bible does not happen if you ignore CONTEXT
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
All sin is defiant. To God, sin is sin, whether you sin through "struggle" or you do with little to no thought.

It's like if a Christian "struggles" with the sin of pornography. Does God judge it's not a sin and looks the other way when the Christian indulges?

No. It's still sin even though one struggles with it.

All sins are committed by decision.
So the sinner in Romans 7 is defiant?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
R


When you interpret a parable, you first examine setting, who is being addressed, purpose, why the parable is being told, etc. So let's do that, shall we?

A. Setting- Pharisees complain about Jesus eating with sinners

Who addressed to- Scribes and Pharisees

Purpose. To rebuke the Pharisees for criticizing Jesus for eating with sinners

The parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, lost son all have the same elements and meaning except there is an element ommitted on the prodigal son, which we will look at later. By the way, when interpreting a parable, you look for one main truth.

Here are the elements that are common to all three stories in Luke 15

A. Possessions. 100 sheep, 10 coins, 2 sons.

B. Loss. One is lost in each story

C. Search. There is a search for that which is lost. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost

D. The lost is found

E. A call for a celebration.

F. Then the first two stories tell of joy in heaven. The prodigal story just mentions a celebration. Joy is not mentioned. Because the very one who should be rejoicing with His Father is not rejoicing

G. The Father entreats the son to join in the celebration, because it is only fitting to rejoice that the younger son has come home

The meaning of the parable is clear. Jesus is saying that if the Pharisees heart was right they would rejoice in the sinners coming to Jesus

So the question about the prodigal dying in their sins is moot. Because the prodigal in the parable represents one who strays and comes back.

The parable is directed at people who are not happy when a wayward child comes home. And since it is directed at the Pharisees, the elder son is actually the main point

So to ask what happens if the prodigal doesn't come back misses the whole point. The prodigal represents wayward children who come home. No such thing as a prodigal son who doesn't come home, because the passage is VERY CLEAR what the prodigal represents, and the intent is also very clear

Don't assume you're talking to people who haven't taken the time to rightly study God's Word


You and I were prodigal son. That's exactly WHY WE CAME Home. The parable is about the Publicans and sinners, about us and about everyone who comes to Jesus

Last note. The Publicans and sinners were not saves until they came to Jesus. The parable in it's original intent is not about backsliders, although it can be used in that application but that Is an applicantion, Not the original intent which is determined by context.

Good exegesis leads to sound doctrine. Please treat God's word with the respect it deserves, which means it needs to tell you what it means, not you deciding what it means. And being taught by the Bible does not happen if you ignore CONTEXT
I'm going to let you people who disagree with me read the two above posts and give you a chance to respond, if you want,v before I reply to any more posts. See you all tommorow
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
And then you go right on and claim works are evidence of faith.
Sorry. Had to reply to this

I didn't say it, the apostle James said it. James 2:18. Have you read it.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
(continued)
“Yet again, our desires change in regard to the indwelling Holy Spirit, but what I have to keep saying over and over is that a believer can resist, through free will, doing good works. You seem to be saying we will do them in violation of free will. If that is so, then at conversion we become robots without a choice.”


No you haven’t, it wasn’t until I asked you over and over on what is a Christian that you even started saying that. Again I do not believe we are robots without a choice, and I hear you say that over and over and don't know why you feel the need to drill it into people. Can you not see "a believer can resist, through free will, doing good works." is NOT glorifying to God. Okay yes a believer can freely choose to "resist God", but will they? Again a very dumb thing to be "fighting for". Is it possible on a technical level? Yes of course, again I don't think we're robots, but I trust in the power of my Lord enough to know He says His will produce fruit, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT, but will produce.



Comment #527

“It's not grace if you have to work for it in any way.

Salvation is a gift. It was always a gift. It will remain a gift.

Without your "help" whatsoever.”



Please show me where ANYONE said it needed our help??????? Who are you talking to????



Comment #596

“ Christians can choose to be carnal.”

“By our free will, we choose to sin - daily. That's not an excuse, just an obvious fact.”

“never want to acknowledge that they still sin regularly”

Who said they didn’t? Who said anything your talking about? God shows me my sin every morning when I go to Him, yet you never even asked.



“The unsaved cannot say no to sin because it's their only nature. We, having now two natures, have the power to say no. But even when we don't, our salvation is never in question. “

Who said it was? Show me. Who were you talking to?



“You seem to be saying that those Christians who produce little or no good works are only giving "lip service" to Christ and are not saved”

No I didn’t, what's this "you seem to be saying", I speak clearly and I never said a word about an amount required, only that works WOULD be there, you refuse to understand this concept that seems to be a spiritual truth you're blind to. Why I wonder? Do you disagree? Did God change you? If so you think that Jesus Christ could transform someone like He supposedly did you, and them not be changed? I'm not talking about what "they technically might be able to do maybe one day on a planet far far away" I'm talking about the power of KNOWING your creator for real". If so I pity your low view of the POWER of our God. If not I have NO CLUE why your preaching "We Sin".

Comment #598



“I made an honest and biblical statement when I said we all will continue to sin until the day we die. “

Yeah we got it, Christians sin, can we talk about righteousness for a minute, or is that wrong?
How can you possibly think the good news is “We Still Sin!”

It’s the exact opposite of what’s written. You hang everything on Romans 8, there’s a LOT more bible and it all works together. right?


I challenge you to go bad through your post here and see what you’re message is. “We Still Sin!” Reigns supreme off your lips. Am I lying? Why is this. Why is protecting the known fact Christians still sin, when no one is arguing that point, so much. Think about it man. Still I hope you have a great evening, and my God draw us all closer to Him and Each other every day.

P.S. ignoring people is dumb, and even though I disagree with your method, the words you speak are true. I'm just trying to relay to you that the way you lay it out allows false converts to stay in darkness. If God would have let me die in that wreak, I be in lost forever, with a cross around my neck thinking I was a Christian when I wasn't. There was never any mention of a real life CHANGE, and I believe that vital info now. Anyway I'm not the ignoring type, so sorry I'll still see you. :eek:
There are two people here that only know two views. What they believe and a monolithic abominable strawman that they try to squeeze everyone else into. One big, massive, oozing false dichotom
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
Then you're having Paul contradict himself when he wrote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am (present tense) carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (present tense)
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth (present tense) no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (present tense)
For the good that I would I do not: (present tense) but the evil which I would not, that I do. (present tense) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth (present tense) in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present (present tense) with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (The Spirit)
But I see another law in my members, warring (present tense) against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in (present tense) my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve (present tense) the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Again, if the flesh (the "Old Man") was dead, we would no longer sin.
Dead doesn't mean anhilated in this context. It means deprived of power and vigor. The same meaning as when the scripture says that Jesus destroyed Him who held us in bondage though fear. ( The devil ). The devil is not anhilated, his authority and power over us is broken.

Jesus delivers us from the power Dominion of the flesh when we walk in the Spirit and abide in Him. It has no power over us but what we give it
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
Busman. When are you going to go forward from Romans 7 reality to Romans 8 realty?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
Untrue. I have answered to the best of my ability, but you simply reject all answers out of hand.

You keep pointing to performance as proof one is a Christian, when performance is a poor indicator, simply because people from cults and other religions can perform good works as well, if not better than, most Christians.
Let's see how many times I answered the question, and I will stop here...

Budman's question- Since you sin daily, how can you claim to have eternal life?

My answers-
1. post 500- A true believer may fall, may even lapse for a long time in some cases. But like a sheep that by nature will not dwell in mud like a pig (just an analogy), they won't want to stay there. It is not in a sheeps nature to dwell in mud.
2. Post 519- I said a sheep may fall into the mud, but won't remain in it... A Christian may stumble but will get back up.
3. Post 519- The difference is the different nature. The Christian has a nature that wants to please God, although the Christian is not infallible.
4. Post 520- Christians are not sinlessly perfect in practice, (1 John 1:9-2:2), BUT will not make their bed in sin, will not abide in sin, will not make sin their home, ie will not practice sin. (1 John 3:6)
5. post 534- When you sin, confess it to God. 1 John 1:9. Name the sin out by name to Him, acknowledge it as sin, and ask Him to help you overcome sins...
6. Post 534- Don’t get discouraged. Growth is sometime a slow process.
7. Post 552- I know we are not sinless. I know the flesh lusts against the Spirit. I know we're in a war until the day we die. I know we're kept by the power of God through faith. I know that it is God who finishes the work in us, I know that Jesus begins and finishes our faith, I know that it is God who works in us to will and to do.

OK, not a dozen times, but I answered that very question SEVEN times.

This is just one example of how you and the other guy fail to read what you are replying to.

Please don't reply to me again. I don't want to keep answering false accusations.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
703
113
Do you believe there is any way possible a person can los salvation, by your interpretation of the prodigal son and calling out certain sins, and saying a person has to be in faith it appeara you do.

THAT is what our problem is,, you sem like so many to say one thing, but believe another
a. My interpretation of the Prodigal Son is based on exegetical principles that every Bible teaches uses. Please see the new thread that I posted on this.

b. John calls out certain sins. SO did Jesus. SO did Paul. So I guess you think, by your logic, that they believed a person can lose their salvation

c. Does a person have to be in faith? Well, is a person justified by faith? Yes. And how is a person KEPT? BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH.

So all of your charges are nothing more than marshmallows shot out of a cannon.