Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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So according to u, in john 3:16 God so loved the 'world'... The term' wor

U said God is immutable.. so how come the second option even arose which is saying He becomes mutable.
I would go for the first option... Remember Jesus was saying something like... '' how often i wanted to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks under her feathers but you were not willing''... So He loved them even though they went the wrong way... And again in the Scriptures it is written... I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So considering what u said that God is immutable... And the verse '' God so loved the world... ''.. I would say.. He loves everyone.. Though some be lost... He does not will that any should Perish
You are asking so many questions it is hard to keep up with your thought(s) my friend. If the word 'world' means everybody whoever lived, then Jesus was not praying for everybody whoever lived when He said He was not praying for the world in John 17:9. World does not mean everybody whoever lived my friend. In many places that word means the lost.

You paraphrase of 2 Peter 3:9 is off the mark too. The context is meaning His sheep, His elect. In Matthew 18 Jesus spoke this...

12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

He is not willing any of His chosen ones to perish.
 

Milee777

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Dec 24, 2018
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Milee777 predestination is mentioned through out the Bible the question that divides is what is meant by it.
It deals with many theological views and a very good teaching on this is taught by R.C. Sproul called chosen by God.
He teaches all sides of it and the history of the doctrine.
It is not just a Calvin thing. I encourage you to view it on Amazon or possible YouTube has it. It's old but very good.
Ohh... any Sciptural reference would be good... Because i have hurt myself brutally by trusting just anyone's views or watching YouTube.
 

Milee777

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Dec 24, 2018
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Ro
Jesus said in the Great Commission to go into all nations and preach the gospel to everyone. However, not everyone whoever lived will hear this good news, and will still die lost. Why will they die lost and not be saved even if they never heard the good news of Jesus Christ? They are condemned already per John 3:18.

You are looking at this the wrong way my friend. You think the unregenerate are walking around looking for a way to be saved, when in fact, that is not even remotely true. A lost person will never seek God, per Psalm 14 and Romans 3. The lost person is not walking around looking for a place to get into the kingdom of God. In fact, unless they are born again, they can not even see this glorious kingdom(John 3:3).
Romans 3:22.. Read it. ''.. Unto all and upon all who believe.. ''
This Scripture being said... Am just trying to understand how the' elect ' and this verse fit each other. Is it like.. God is saying that if we believe we will be saved but at the same time He is saying...''you cannot believe... U can believe only if i allow you to''
 

Milee777

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Jesus said in the Great Commission to go into all nations and preach the gospel to everyone. However, not everyone whoever lived will hear this good news, and will still die lost. Why will they die lost and not be saved even if they never heard the good news of Jesus Christ? They are condemned already per John 3:18.

You are looking at this the wrong way my friend. You think the unregenerate are walking around looking for a way to be saved, when in fact, that is not even remotely true. A lost person will never seek God, per Psalm 14 and Romans 3. The lost person is not walking around looking for a place to get into the kingdom of God. In fact, unless they are born again, they can not even see this glorious kingdom(John 3:3).
Considering Jogn 3:3...am little confused as in how many requirements are there to get into heaven.. Jesus already said if you believe u are saved... And then here it says unless ur born again u cant see the kingdom of God and then agan.. Unless u are converted and become as little children... And again i remember how the guy with one talent was condemned... even though it seemed he believed.. he just didnt do some appointed work it seemed.. And then again somewhere in revelations... The liars and coward will be thrown out.. And as far as am concerned.. I have lied a couple of times. And therefore. I sit down and wonder. What does the Lord require of me. To believe in Jesus..? But then again somewhere else Paul says, even the devil believes He is the Son of God. And therefore... I wonder... What is God saying..
 

Adstar

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Psalms 53:2-3, may give you insight on what God saw by his foreknowledge, and it was that he saw no one would seek him, no, not one.
Yet the Bible says..

Jeremiah 29: KJV
13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

And this is why Gods Holy Spirit is active in the world leading people to the truth by conviction of their consciences.. But this does not mean that people cannot resist the calling of the Holy Spirit.. People can and do resist God..

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Matthew 22: KJV
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
 

Milee777

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As long as people are clear that R. C. Sproul holds to Reformed Theology, which teaches *Unconditional Election* -- that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

*Upon what condition did God elect sinners to salvation? Was your positive choice for the gospel the basis for your election before the foundation of the world? Was God’s choice based on your foreseen choice? Simply put, did God choose you because you first chose Him? Would God be unfair if He chose some to salvation and not others? In this message, Dr. Sproul helps us understand this hard, yet biblical doctrine as he looks at “Unconditional Election.”*
Where must i get this then?
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Considering Jogn 3:3...am little confused as in how many requirements are there to get into heaven.. Jesus already said if you believe u are saved... And then here it says unless ur born again u cant see the kingdom of God and then agan.. Unless u are converted and become as little children... And again i remember how the guy with one talent was condemned... even though it seemed he believed.. he just didnt do some appointed work it seemed.. And then again somewhere in revelations... The liars and coward will be thrown out.. And as far as am concerned.. I have lied a couple of times. And therefore. I sit down and wonder. What does the Lord require of me. To believe in Jesus..? But then again somewhere else Paul says, even the devil believes He is the Son of God. And therefore... I wonder... What is God saying..
There are no requirements for us meet, as we had no way of meeting them, but Jesus met them for us. He died to be our Guarantee/Surety(Hebrews 7:22).
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yeah. We send ourselves to hell... Because reading the Bible will be all pointless when it doesn't matter what choice we make. Its like God giving us a choice - '' if you believe.. '' and immediately going backstage and saying 'cheers' to His colleagues and saying... '' i just said it but didnt mean it, i have already decided who among the audience i will allow inside my kingdom''.. Wohoo!
Well he did decide. And jesus told us by what he decided. That everyne who sees the son (believes) and recieves his son, is given th power to become Gods child and eternal life.

Their is no birth until one recieves
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Alright.
1 Timothy 2:4
Amen, with John 1 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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So are you saying... That if i were to preach the gospel.... It will be ineffective if 100% of the audience consisted of the non elect. You are saying the gospel is not for the non elect people...? Are you saying we need to preach the gospel to selected few?
Just clicking...

I think that for the most part, people take one or another of two opposite extremes on this doctrine. Here is what I see in scripture

A. God knows everything that will ever happen. He had exhaustive foreknowledge of all things before He created anything

B. God is Soveriegn. He is in complete control. Nothing can happen unless He either causes it or allows it

C. God restrains evil, and at times removes His restraint and gives men over to destroy themselves. (see Romans 1, last few verses)

D. Jesus died for all men, but His death is only applied to those who believe.

E. Those who believe are God's elect, but they were chosen before they were born.

F. To say that God looked down the corridors of time and elected based on who would believe is, I think an oversimplification, because Romans 9 says that election is not based on anything we do.

G. Therefore I think that Christ died for all, the Gospel is for all, God desires all to be saved, but also there is a Divine Purpose and a basis for election that we do not fully understand.

H. Predestination is the fact that God determined the adoption of His Elect, that they would be confirmed to the image of Christ and receive an inheritance. In other words, our destination was chosen before we were born.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Alright.
1 Timothy 2:4
You are extrapolating a verse from the rest of the passage my friend.

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.(1 Timothy 2)

Now, Jesus came not just as a Messiah, but He was also a Prophet, Priest and King. Look at the OT high priest, who typified Jesus. Who did this high priest act as a mediator for? All mankind without exception or solely Israel, God’s chosen people? Israel. Read Exodus 28 and see how what this high priest did was solely for them and not all mankind in general. This was a type, Jesus being the anti-type.

Jesus is the Mediator of God’s chosen people, the church, which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. This can be found all throughout the book of Hebrews my friend.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Considering Jogn 3:3...am little confused as in how many requirements are there to get into heaven.. Jesus already said if you believe u are saved... And then here it says unless ur born again u cant see the kingdom of God and then agan.. Unless u are converted and become as little children... And again i remember how the guy with one talent was condemned... even though it seemed he believed.. he just didnt do some appointed work it seemed.. And then again somewhere in revelations... The liars and coward will be thrown out.. And as far as am concerned.. I have lied a couple of times. And therefore. I sit down and wonder. What does the Lord require of me. To believe in Jesus..? But then again somewhere else Paul says, even the devil believes He is the Son of God. And therefore... I wonder... What is God saying..
Some honest questions my friend.

What is your spiritual status?
Have you sought His forgiveness?
Have you repented of your sins and turned to God, fully trusting in Him?
Do you attend a church regularly and also regularly read your Bible?


I ask to further understand where you are coming from asking all these questions.
 

Hevosmies

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Jesus is the Mediator of God’s chosen people, the church, which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. This can be found all throughout the book of Hebrews my friend.
One thing to add there brother:

If Jesus is the mediator for ALL, the High Priest for all, doesn't that mean universalism? If we are consistent.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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One thing to add there brother:

If Jesus is the mediator for ALL, the High Priest for all, doesn't that mean universalism? If we are consistent.
Yes. Did the OT high priest mediate for everybody without exception? No.
 

Hevosmies

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Yes. Did the OT high priest mediate for everybody without exception? No.
One thing to point out is: Why did God choose Abraham? Or Israel in general?

There were other nations to go with. The Bible never tells us WHY this happened, only that God loved Israel. Why? We dont know (or atleast I dont).
Its also of note that God rarely sent prophets to amalakites or philistines or any of those other nations to call them to repentance(why?). And as you stated, no sacrifices were ever made for their sins, granted gentiles COULD join Israel, as was the case with Ruth etc.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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One thing to point out is: Why did God choose Abraham? Or Israel in general?

There were other nations to go with. The Bible never tells us WHY this happened, only that God loved Israel. Why? We dont know (or atleast I dont).
Its also of note that God rarely sent prophets to amalakites or philistines or any of those other nations to call them to repentance(why?). And as you stated, no sacrifices were ever made for their sins, granted gentiles COULD join Israel, as was the case with Ruth etc.
In Deuteronomy 8, we are told why God chose Israel...because He loved them. Then we are told it was not because of who or what they were, but only because He loved them. That is unconditional election right there.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yes. Did the OT high priest mediate for everybody without exception? No.
As far as Isreal goes. Yes.

Everyone, whther they wanted him to or not.

Again, Being savior of all does not mean everyone will be saved.

A savior and mediator are two different things..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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One thing to point out is: Why did God choose Abraham? Or Israel in general?
Why?

Abraham Believed God and it was acredited to him as righteousness.

God chose Abraham because when he ave abraham a choice, Abraham said yes.

God could have asked other people to do this, and they said no. But we will never know if that happened or not.

There were other nations to go with.
He did not pick a nation, He created one. Huge difference

The Bible never tells us WHY this happened, only that God loved Israel. Why? We dont know (or atleast I don't).
Yes we do know. He loved them because he created them. He called them out from other nations. And made them specific promises. To make them a great nation. To bring about the savior. And he gave them land, and promised to be their God. And through THEN he woudl prove to ALL nations that he is the one true God (by the way, something that has yet to happen, except in minor circumstances, because Israel always rebelled)

Its also of note that God rarely sent prophets to amalakites or philistines or any of those other nations to call them to repentance(why?). And as you stated, no sacrifices were ever made for their sins, granted gentiles COULD join Israel, as was the case with Ruth etc.
So God did not Send Jonah to the ninevites? (Fierce enemies of Israel) How do you now he did not send some to thers and we are just not shown I would be careful about making statements which can not be proven.
 

Jimbone

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So are you saying... That if i were to preach the gospel.... It will be ineffective if 100% of the audience consisted of the non elect. You are saying the gospel is not for the non elect people...? Are you saying we need to preach the gospel to selected few?
No you are the means by which He reaches the others. We are in time space so we can not get caught up in the exact why/how God works all these things for His glory, but I do believe with everything that He is in control of EVERRYTHING, and He commands us to "go" and make disciples of all nations. Honestly, I can't explain to you how a Motorcycle wreak that completely took ALL function in my right arm is now something I thank God for. Writing this I wanted to write "I thank God everyday for", but realized I can't write "everyday" anymore and that actually hurts a lot. I truly need to pray on this.

I thank Him for bringing me to my knees so I might see the total hopelessness of my situation and turn from it. I've shared this 1,000 times, and will testify until I die that when I hit my knees, if I had ever believed in God, I didn't then. I thought I already knew what a Christian was, and it wasn't helping. I repeated the prayer, I was even dunked under water for good measure, yet did not know Him, only liked the "idea" of Him. When I hit my knees, when I was granted repentance, I was not saying "Jesus I need you now, please come into my heart", I was saying "I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE. World I tried, you win, I QUIT". I also believe that every bit of this was for His purpose, and I will sing Jesus praise all the way to the grave for everything that has molded me closer into His image. I don't think the view of God is the problem in this debate really, it's that one side has far to high a view of man. It's as if they think the Creator, the very One that gave us life, the One we've rebelled against openly, owes us something. Really?

I remember after being reborn and struggling with the whole free will/lose salvation idea. If I had the "free will" to chose God, then after I'm saved does He take that free will? Can I not now chose to exit the presents of God? Jesus said He will lose NONE the Father has given Him, How? Do we become slaves of Christ after salvation? I just could square it. I knew that "I" felt it impossible to turn from Him, but on a very technical level it seemed to fall short. So where exactly are you not seeing it? The glory of being reborn, by His grace and sacrifice the very spirit inside of us is brought to life and reconciled to Him in Spirit that guides us to ALL truth, for all nations. You think having the very truth of reality opened up to us by His power FOR His glory is going to lead to "Awww I'm going to put up my feet and just let God handle it". That's not even a good argument. I could attack a straw man with you too. I just say a magic prayer and then am told nothing I can do can make me "unsaved", unless of course I use my still free will to choose to walk away from You. Now who can put up they're feet? See we can divide and try to pick apart each other because of our "label", or start coming together more to understand each other better and see each other in truth for His glory, to represent His church on earth. If the Spirit is in us, it will be evidenced by our fruit. I look forward to your response and have a great day.

I think I could keep writing 10,000 words on this subject but I've shared a good bit of how I've come to see it at this point, I'd like to get your perspective on what I've said so far so I don't just post a novel at a time.