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I haven't read through this post yet. Has anyone brought up this point: If women are to stay quiet in church, why did God give Anna the gift of prophecy??
36There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[e] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
-Luke 2:36-38
36There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[e] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
-Luke 2:36-38
yes i think they have and it has also been brought up regardless of what some denominations says there is a difference between prophets and pastors this thread evolved from a thread called denominations , where I made the statement that according to scriptures and the qualifications that the pastor should be the Husband of one wife, there should be no women pastors. some people also have a trouble understanding there is a difference between preachers and pastors, we know that God said in the last days our sons and daughters will prophesy, I have also pointed out that it is about the authority in the Church, about every where we read about women in the new testament we can find it talking about womem not having authority over man, a pastor has authority over the flock. a prophet or prophetess has no authority. they just state what God says
G
Has anyone mentioned that these rules for women in the church were written by men? The commands for silence, or not to teach other men, came from men, and not from God. These statements were written in letters by church authorities (mostly Paul). Jesus made no such commands about women. I think we have to take these verses with a grain of salt. It's obvious that social factors played a part (like the status of women in Corinthian society, as someone mentioned earlier), as well as the belief in the patriarchal system and the domination of men over women. We have progressed as a society to finally begin to truly treat women as equals, and we should not hang on to this outdated, man-made, male-dominated hierarchy. Paul and other church leaders at that time made a rule about women in church, but we can change that rule. There are other cultural issues that we have changed since the first century, such as allowing women to wear jewelry, or braid their hair, or allowing men to grow long hair, or condemning slavery. We are the church now, and the right to make these kinds of decisions have been given to us.
Quote: 'Has anyone mentioned that these rules for women in the church were written by men? The commands for silence, or not to teach other men, came from men, and not from God. These statements were written in letters by church authorities (mostly Paul). Jesus made no such commands about women. I think we have to take these verses with a grain of salt. It's obvious that social factors played a part (like the status of women in Corinthian society, as someone mentioned earlier), as well as the belief in the patriarchal system and the domination of men over women. We have progressed as a society to finally begin to truly treat women as equals, and we should not hang on to this outdated, man-made, male-dominated hierarchy. Paul and other church leaders at that time made a rule about women in church, but we can change that rule. There are other cultural issues that we have changed since the first century, such as allowing women to wear jewelry, or braid their hair, or allowing men to grow long hair, or condemning slavery. We are the church now, and the right to make these kinds of decisions have been given to us'.
Many of you have read this post and don't have a single problem with it? Your just going to let it slide because he makes some points that you lean toward. It doesn't matter if he criticizes the scriptures that are inspired by God and calls them man-made and outdated and not from God. By his standards, the church has the authority to change anything they deem man-made and that would include any doctrine as well. Are we going to out date the marriage institution between a man and a woman and include all sexual orientations because our culture has progressed? Perhaps some of you deep down believe all that this man, Groundhog, is saying but you don't dare come out with it for fear of being flogged or shunned. Actually, I think you would be in good company with some of the posts I have read over the past (3) months. Do you want new believers grabbing onto what this man is saying and running with it?
I know of a man who was a graduate of West Point and graduated the top of his class, who was a husband and father of two boys, who taught at a Bible College, was a pastor of a local church and started questioning the authority of the scriptures through contrived intellectualism and it lead him to leave his wife and shack up with a man who left his wife to do the same. I suppose to some of you, that is not shameful but okay and understandable because of the cultural times we live in. Some say within, 'By what authority can anyone say that a man was made for a woman and not for another man'? After all, according to 'Groundhog' Jesus made no such commands about it. So if the church wants to change all that, they have the power to do it. Is that what you folks out there believe? Is 'Groundhog' right in his assessment? Can we handle the scriptures in such a deceitful way and God not notice (2Cor 4:2)?
Many of you have read this post and don't have a single problem with it? Your just going to let it slide because he makes some points that you lean toward. It doesn't matter if he criticizes the scriptures that are inspired by God and calls them man-made and outdated and not from God. By his standards, the church has the authority to change anything they deem man-made and that would include any doctrine as well. Are we going to out date the marriage institution between a man and a woman and include all sexual orientations because our culture has progressed? Perhaps some of you deep down believe all that this man, Groundhog, is saying but you don't dare come out with it for fear of being flogged or shunned. Actually, I think you would be in good company with some of the posts I have read over the past (3) months. Do you want new believers grabbing onto what this man is saying and running with it?
I know of a man who was a graduate of West Point and graduated the top of his class, who was a husband and father of two boys, who taught at a Bible College, was a pastor of a local church and started questioning the authority of the scriptures through contrived intellectualism and it lead him to leave his wife and shack up with a man who left his wife to do the same. I suppose to some of you, that is not shameful but okay and understandable because of the cultural times we live in. Some say within, 'By what authority can anyone say that a man was made for a woman and not for another man'? After all, according to 'Groundhog' Jesus made no such commands about it. So if the church wants to change all that, they have the power to do it. Is that what you folks out there believe? Is 'Groundhog' right in his assessment? Can we handle the scriptures in such a deceitful way and God not notice (2Cor 4:2)?
G
Wow. I am horrified by this personal attack. First let me correct something: you indicate that people might be afraid to disagree with me because they are afraid of being flogged or shunned. Really? It seems to me that I often find myself in the minority in many of the conversations on here. There are plenty who disagree with me, so I doubt anyone is "afraid" to do so. And if I have ever come across as the kind of person who would become vicious toward someone simply because they disagree with me, then I apologize for that. It is never, and will never be, my intent. I encourage honest, open debate. I am always searching for the truth, as I hope you are.
The end of your post insinuates that my kind of thinking will lead people to become gay or condone immorality, etc. Quite the contrary. We simply must be careful with how much weight we give to certain scriptures, and always be mindful of the historical and cultural context of scriptures. Remember, the New Testament is an assortment of letters. There were many more letters written that we do not have, which is a shame, because I'm sure we could gain valuable insight from them. If we ignore the context, then we are sure to miss the point. To make my point, I bring up the verse that says women should not have braided hair or jewelry: the verse makes a very plain statement, but we do not follow it, because we understand it is irrelevant for our culture. The point of the verse (the "spirit" of the verse, as we say) is for women to dress modestly, and not to dress like prostitutes. If that same verse were written today, in America (for example), it would probably be worded differently to address our current culture (since braided hair is not immodest here). The same is true of verses dealing with womens' roles in church. Many others in this thread have done a good job of making the case for women preachers (etc.), so I will not repeat what they have said, except to say that when cultural context then and now is understood, a good case can be made for allowing women to serve in all capacities.
As a final note, please do not address me in the third person as though I am not here: it is insulting. You seem to be calling out members of CC to rise up against me, which I think is just terrible. If you disagree with me, then let's discuss as Christian brethren. Let us not engage in an us-verses-them mentality among each other.
The end of your post insinuates that my kind of thinking will lead people to become gay or condone immorality, etc. Quite the contrary. We simply must be careful with how much weight we give to certain scriptures, and always be mindful of the historical and cultural context of scriptures. Remember, the New Testament is an assortment of letters. There were many more letters written that we do not have, which is a shame, because I'm sure we could gain valuable insight from them. If we ignore the context, then we are sure to miss the point. To make my point, I bring up the verse that says women should not have braided hair or jewelry: the verse makes a very plain statement, but we do not follow it, because we understand it is irrelevant for our culture. The point of the verse (the "spirit" of the verse, as we say) is for women to dress modestly, and not to dress like prostitutes. If that same verse were written today, in America (for example), it would probably be worded differently to address our current culture (since braided hair is not immodest here). The same is true of verses dealing with womens' roles in church. Many others in this thread have done a good job of making the case for women preachers (etc.), so I will not repeat what they have said, except to say that when cultural context then and now is understood, a good case can be made for allowing women to serve in all capacities.
As a final note, please do not address me in the third person as though I am not here: it is insulting. You seem to be calling out members of CC to rise up against me, which I think is just terrible. If you disagree with me, then let's discuss as Christian brethren. Let us not engage in an us-verses-them mentality among each other.
Man, have you ever consider that all the Bible was written By man and not written by God as far as your thought goes then the ten commandments is the only thing that should be in the Bible and the only thing we should live by. have you ever consider
2ti 3:16All scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Ground Hog you said:
" There are other cultural issues that we have changed since the first century, such as allowing women to wear jewelry, or braid their hair, or allowing men to grow long hair, or condemning slavery. We are the church now, and the right to make these kinds of decisions have been given to us.[/"
hey dude who died and made you God, you admit you think it is ok the change the Word of God have you not read
Re 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:Re 22:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
and we all wonder why the Church is in the shape that it is in ?
2ti 3:16All scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Ground Hog you said:
" There are other cultural issues that we have changed since the first century, such as allowing women to wear jewelry, or braid their hair, or allowing men to grow long hair, or condemning slavery. We are the church now, and the right to make these kinds of decisions have been given to us.[/"
hey dude who died and made you God, you admit you think it is ok the change the Word of God have you not read
Re 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:Re 22:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
and we all wonder why the Church is in the shape that it is in ?
G
The verse from Revelation applies to the book of Revelation only. Our current collection of writings that we call "The Bible" was not in its current form until after 300 A.D., and Catholics and Protestants don't even agree on what books should be included--the Catholic bible has several books not included in the later Protestant bible. During the first century, Revelation, along with other writings, had been copied and circulated, but there was no uniform New Testament. When the Bible was put together, Revelation was put at the end of the collection. To say that that verse applies to the letters of Paul, the gospels, etc, is to simply take it out of context. I know that it's a favorite one to use during debates like this, but let's be true to the text.
The verse from Timothy is another favorite, but remember that it is talking about Old Testament scripture. Start reading a couple of verses before that one, and you'll see that in context it is referring to the OT.
The verse from Timothy is another favorite, but remember that it is talking about Old Testament scripture. Start reading a couple of verses before that one, and you'll see that in context it is referring to the OT.
I,ve been saving this one.......but since humor isnt appreciated and arent tolerated in here I'm just gunna let Pauls admonition of this subject say it .
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Now If any of you knew how to actually stick to the subject youd have seen this a long time ago and ended this ignorance,but however I see its went on for too long.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Now If any of you knew how to actually stick to the subject youd have seen this a long time ago and ended this ignorance,but however I see its went on for too long.
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