no women preachers

[RoboOp]

It seems that the majority seem to believe that women should not be allowed to teach Christianity. There does also seem to be some feeling against feminism as a whole. I'd be interested to hear peoples opinions on other rights for women, especially from Thaddaeus and RoboOp.

• Should women be allowed to vote?
• Should women be allowed to work (outside of the house)?
• Should women be allowed to participate in government and law making?
• Should women be allowed the same rights in law?
• Should women have the same right to education as men?

Hi Pogrud, here are my 5 quick answers to your 5 questions, in order:

"Should women be allowed to vote?"
Bible doesn't say, and I don't have a simple "yes" or "no" opinion on it. That's something that will never change (backward) anyway, so I would simply encourage Christian women to use that right to vote for men who represent godly values.

"Should women be allowed to work (outside of the house)?"
Bible makes their priority the home, the children (Titus 2, 1 Tim 5). 'Course that's kinda assuming that they do have children at home. God gave the woman the lactating breasts to nurse them, so nature kinda dictates that she's the one to stay home and do that.
Proverbs 31 describes the wife of noble character, and talks about her doing a little business and even investing ("she considers a field and buys it"), however it seems to be in ways/things that don't take over her life and interfere with her responsibility in the home, and it's all for the purpose of helping her family, not about "career ambition".
Eph 5, Col 2, 1 Peter 3, Titus 2 say that a woman should submit to or obey her husband. So the simple answer is "up to her husband". I personally would not, I mean I do not, allow my wife to work outside the house because she already has three full time jobs right here in the house (see my current avatar). However she has at times done income-earning work from home, and if/when the children are grown up, it's possible she may do some job "outside of the house"; that just depends.

"Should women be allowed to participate in government and law making?"
I don't think the Bible really says, unless you pull things from OT Israel.

"Should women be allowed the same rights in law?"
Hmm well again I don't think the Bible really says, unless you pull things from OT Israel. The Bible is more concerned with changing hearts and changing homes than it is about changing governments. However ...... logicaly, if women do want equal rights in every way, e.g., the right to fight in combat in the military (which they have now), then they should also have equal responsibility : they should have to register for the draft and be drafted just like men in time of war. But I think the better way is for us men to be real men and protect our wives and daughters and do the fighting for our country, and worry more about national security instead of "equal rights" in matters like that. But in many other matters, I see no problem with "equal rights".

"Should women have the same right to education as men?"
I don't think the Bible really says. I am homeschooling my daughter just like my sons, and she definitely has her own talents that I am trying to cultivate and I hope will be used for the glory of God. Though if I have to make a choice, regarding who gets college education, I will give priority to my sons to be college-educated, since they will likely be family breadwinners and she will likely be a stay home mom. That choice is kinda hypothetical though.. in today's world I think pretty much anyone can get a college education one way or another if they want it. So if I can give them all college-level education (if we choose to do that at all), then sure why not all of them.

 

[pogrud]

Thanks RoboOp, it was good to hear some of your views. It would have been nice if you had gone a bit further with some of your views for the issues not covered so comprehensively by the bible. This is my point, to the morality thread - No matter if you're Christian, you do have to make decisions for things outside the bible.

From the perspective of the average European, I think your views would be viewed as discriminating towards women. I respect that is your opinion though. Since you were kind enough to answer my questions, I think it's only fair if I share mine:

Should women be allowed to vote?
Definitely. I view women as having the same mental ability as men. To link with your response, I don't see why a women should have to vote for a man. You need to judge individuals on wider issues than purely the religious. A candidate may support everything the bible does, however they may also have other questionable traits outside these.

Should women be allowed to work (outside of the house)?
Again, I definitely agree with that. I agree that women may have certain traits and physical characteristics that make them more suitable for bringing up small children. Decisions however, should be made based on what is best for the household. E.g. If the woman is the top breadwinner, then things may change. My partner and I share the household chores equally - we're both good cooks (if anything, I'm better), we both iron, both wash the dishes, etc. There is no reason why either of us are better suited to these jobs. She's extremely capable (as are all women in our family), so there is no reason they should have to work at home.

Should women be allowed to participate in government and law making?
Again, I'm in favour of this. Women are no more morally corruptable than men - you just need to look at the stats for who commits most crimes. I even think that women have certain traits that make them better than men for certain aspects of government and law making.

Should women be allowed the same rights in law?
Yes. I don't think either sexes traits are significant enough to warrant any descrimination. I have no problem with women on the front line if they wish. I know a few women who easily have the physicality to match most men. Personally, I feel the women being the weaker sex is exaggerated by a self-fulfilling prophecy because of how they're treated. I don't doubt that men do tend to me physiologically more muscular though, I just think women can also be 'tough' enough for physical work.

Should women have the same right to education as men?
I've worked in academia for a significant time at a couple of top-class Universities. There is little difference between the sexes performance wise. If anything, women tend to apply themselves more. With my generation there is little difference in salaries either. I disagree with women not being capable of 'hardcore' subjects either - many of the women in my family have studied 'male' subjects (Physics, Maths, Chemistry) at the best Universities in the country.

Back to the original question though: it depends you think anything in the bible should be reinterpreted by todays standards.

 

[awings7]

Actually Paul did CLEARLY forbid women from speaking in church, let alone TEACHING . People try to flip it and "Apologetic" there way out of keeping it, explaining that it was for the "corinthian" church , but paul clearly states that teh rule was for all congregations . Not only did paul say they cant speak (the word is speak and not "scream" and makes no mention that the church was particularily louder ) . but he also said tha tthey cant even ask questions which is the opposite of teaching , and which covers teh whole spectrum of speaking period . It is clear , according to paul, women cant speak AT ALL in ANY congregation (unless they are prophesizing apperantly) . However, i dont agree with that rule of pauls so i dont forbid women from speaking in my presence or from even attempting to teach me something .

Considering what Paul wrote was correct for his day and time, it poses no arguement.
One has to read texts in the times and customs they were written.

One also has to consider that God is no respector of persons, He did use a donkey to deliver a
messague.

 

[SamIam]

for what you say this too?A women can speaking things God tells her but not teach a men

no im sorry i disagree with you.... I think women should only talk when its absolutely necessary, like if they need to use the bathroom

 

[carpetmanswife]

no im sorry i disagree with you.... I think women should only talk when its absolutely necessary, like if they need to use the bathroom

..............

 

[BLC]

carpetmanswife,

I believe that 'SamIam' will learn, later in life, that it is always absolutely necessary that a woman have the freedom to speak her mind as she sees fit. If most women are like my wife, the bathroom would qualify any woman to have a lot to say, morning, noon and night. I believe he speaks as a man without experience and lacks some important wisdom at this time in his life.

 

[NoahsMom]

Yea, I mean what if like he was in a restaurtant...we cant refill the tea glass if we dont speak.....everyone knows THAT!

 

[BLC]

- OR- You could always excuse yourself to go to the restroom and fill his glass of tea on the way back.

 

[Annahay]

Well if man is the leader in the home, it's just consistent that the church is also male-led.

It wouldn't make much sense if a woman is under her husband but in the church she's over him as "the pastor".

So if you believe that "The husband is the head over the wife" (your words), "in a guiding way as a head covering" (your words again), then it makes perfect sense that in the church there is also this male "headship" and "guiding", "covering".

no. the church does not cover. Jesus covers the church.

remember Deborah in the old testament??? wasn't she a female leader?

 

[Grimaldus]

Even if the bible says so, allowing women to lead would promote equality and thinking of equality. It may seem like it's something that could be localized, but when someone locks themselves into a rut, it's hard to get out. There's no superiority among male/female, after all it's just if you turn out XY or XX not much different, so why should there be any in god's eye? As long as they are not butchering the scripture, it should be fine, but men are just as good in that too.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Even if the bible says so, allowing women to lead would promote equality and thinking of equality. It may seem like it's something that could be localized, but when someone locks themselves into a rut, it's hard to get out. There's no superiority among male/female, after all it's just if you turn out XY or XX not much different, so why should there be any in god's eye? As long as they are not butchering the scripture, it should be fine, but men are just as good in that too.

so why should there be any in god's eye?

cause His word said it was that way


1pe 3:7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the WEAKER vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

1co 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Grimaldus]

so why should there be any in god's eye?

cause His word said it was that way


1pe 3:7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the WEAKER vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

1co 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

That wasn't exactly the point...

 

[Adelaide]

What about other jobs in church?
like a youth pastor? does anyone disagree with that?

 

[Thaddaeus]

What about other jobs in church?
like a youth pastor? does anyone disagree with that?

if any of the male youths are over 13 years old, Then I would say it also goes against the Word of God.

 

[palaton]

There were women preachers and evangelist in the bible as well as female saints. You only havee to do a google search on female saints of the early church and you will find them. They were ministering to men and women. Rom 16:1-3, Paul commends his sister Phoebe in the faith.
She was by the way, the first female deacon of Chenchrea. He requests that she be received in the Lord as a person befitting the saints.
He also requests that she be helped according to her requests, because she had helped others and helped Paul himself.

 

[Thaddaeus]

There were women preachers and evangelist in the bible as well as female saints. You only havee to do a google search on female saints of the early church and you will find them. They were ministering to men and women. Rom 16:1-3, Paul commends his sister Phoebe in the faith.
She was by the way, the first female deacon of Chenchrea. He requests that she be received in the Lord as a person befitting the saints.
He also requests that she be helped according to her requests, because she had helped others and helped Paul himself.

BUT no women Pastors . that was the orginal statement made then it turn to no women preachers , and Phebe was no deacon. you can serve the Church by cleaning the cans, just because someone serves the Church does not give them a deacon's position. one can minister to the Church keeping the flowers arranged, or counting the money brought in or even being a prophetess or as you said evangelist, but woman can not have authority over man. if Phebe was a deacon then we need to trash the Bible for truly it has fault and can not be The Holy Bible. the Bible does not say that she was a deacon but rather a servant you are adding to the Word of God and changing the word of God into a lie by saying so. 1ti 3:12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.1ti 3:13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


a servant can be one who prepares the food also just because one is a servant does not make them a deacon, just as everyone that drives does not make them a Chauffeur, they coild even be a golf club and be a driver

 

[NoahsDad]

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[RoboOp]

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Amen bro!! I agree with every word that you quoted (black and red)!

(and gray)

 

[NoahsMom]

Ignorance is bliss, or so they say..................

 

[carpetmanswife]

now lori u know u shouldnt be speaking....whats gotten into you???