Not By Works

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Hi Seohce, Happened to have this lose canon to reinforce, It's not from me but believe it's of the Lord
The Lord did tell me 6 years ago, "It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit."
The following is an end-time vision given to an established, seasoned minister of the gospel, Dr. Mark Barclay, and told in his own words. My heart was quickened when I read it and I thought: "This vision needs to be circulated to the body of Christ worldwide for we are seeing the increasing effects of it being unfolded in this hour, although it was given more than 25 years ago."
If you are skeptical of these things I would encourage you to listen to your heart as you read it and allow the Holy Spirit to bear witness with you.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. ... But the anointing which you have received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. For as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in Him" (1 John 2:20, 27)
Here then is the vision told in the minister's own words:
"In 1987 I was a speaker at a camp meeting in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I spoke during the Thursday evening service. Dr. Kenneth E. Hagin spoke during the Friday evening service. I remember that I had just flown in from meetings in Paris, France. I mentioned to my wife how much I would like to stay and hear Dr. Hagin speak. She agreed.
As Dr. Hagin entered the pulpit, he began to pray in tongues. When he started, I started. A moment later, I was caught up in a vision (I was told later that it was probably more like a trance). As I went into this vision, I remember how Dr. Hagin's voice was getting quieter and quieter, until I could hear him no more. It was so quiet all around me I felt like I could hear my own heartbeat.
All of a sudden I felt evil, as if it were surrounding me. Anger rose up in me, and fear tried to get a grip on me. Suddenly, something caught my attention out of my left eye. I turned hard to the left to see what it was. I saw the circumference of the earth, from one edge to the other, and this horrible black, dark cloud was rising up over the horizon. Somehow I knew it would eventually fill the entire earth.
An alarm went off in me, screaming to me to run away from it as fast as I could. I felt like I should scream at it, to stop it in its tracks by using the name of Jesus. I began to rebuke it and started to say, "In the name of Jesus ... " I didn't quite get it out, and the Lord said, "That will do you no good."
"What?" I said.
The Lord said, "Son, you cannot use My name to stop what I prophesied. I am not causing this dark cloud, but I did prophesy it would happen in the last days."
I remember in the vision that I asked the Lord "What is this? What is this evil, tempestuous, dark cloud?"
The Lord said, "This is what I showed My prophet, Isaiah (Isa. 60:1-2). This is every evil thing you can name. It is every demon, it is every disease, it is sickness and bacterial attacks that haven't even been discovered yet. It will cause humans to do things to humans that aren't even human. It is filled with insanity, and many people will lose their mind and their faculties. It is murder, terror, rape, abuse, terrorism, torture and much worse. It is filled with deceptions, heresies, perversions and filth."
Some things the Lord showed me I have not had permission to speak.
I also saw people—many, many people. Some were running into the dark cloud, and some were being sucked into it. It reminded me of this very powerful Shop-vac I have. It will not only suck up the dirt but also my tools, if I don't pay attention.
I saw may people screaming with terror and actually being dragged into this cloud. Though they were refusing it and resisting it with all their strength, they still did not possess the power to stop it.
I was so disturbed when I saw a cross on someone's pocket or jewelry. I remember saying to the Lord, "Who are those people being drawn into this filth and terror, wearing the Christian symbol of the cross? Who are these people, not even resisting? And who are these people, resisting with all their might but it does them no good? They just keep disappearing into this horrible, evil cloud of gross darkness."
The Lord answered me and said, "Oh, these are those who do not have clean hands and a pure heart. They have been warned but ignored the warnings. Some even wanted this filth as their lifestyle."
I asked, "Well, who are these wearing the cross?"
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"Oh," the Lord said, "These are the people who claim Me as Savior. Many of them have desired this filth and even fought for it. They make excuses but are not excused. The ones who are resisting thought My prophets were exaggerating and from the old school, and they denied the warnings. Now that this evil has come, they possess little to no power, and certainly not enough to resist and overcome this horrible onslaught of enemy power. Only those with clean hands and a pure heart will be able to totally resist this. It will cover the earth."
There was much more to this, but I began to come out of the vision and once again heard Brother Hagin speaking in tongues from the pulpit.
I asked my wife what had happened, and she said, "Nothing, he hasn't done anything but pray in the spirit."

I began to realize that nobody seemed to see this vision or get caught up into this trance but me. I held my wife's hand a little tighter and began to pray fervently in the spirit. As I did, I got caught up in the spirit again.
Just like before, Brother Hagin's voice got quieter and quieter until it was gone. I found myself alone again. It was so quiet I could hear my own heartbeat. Suddenly, a piercing light hit the corner of my right eye. It was so bright that I instantly shrouded my head with my hands and arms. It reminded me of the intense light that my optometrist uses to examine the back of my eyes. Actually, it was much brighter than that.
Everything within me said, "Turn and look into it. Turn now, and run into it." Yet there was this hesitation because it was so bright it seemed to shine through me. Finally I gave in to it and looked directly at it. With both eyes I saw the depth of this bright cloud. Just like the dark cloud I had seen before, it was coming up over the horizon of the earth. I could tell that it was going to cover the planet. I just knew that I knew that nothing could stop it.
I remembered asking the Lord, "What is this? What is this massive, earth-consuming, bright cloud?"
The Lord answered me and said, "Oh, this is My glory. This is the glory cloud that I showed My prophet Isaiah (Isa. 61:1-2). This is what I promised, that My glory will fill the whole earth."
"Well," I asked, "what is inside the cloud?"
"It is filled with the greatest miracles humans have ever seen. It is filled with healing for every disease, and a cure for every sickness. It is power to overcome sin and filth—to receive the truth and reject error, heresy and doctrines of demons. It is a full manifestation of My Spirit. It is the full anointing of Jesus Christ and more, much more."
He showed me other things that I have no permission to speak at this time.

I saw people in this vision, just like before with the cloud of darkness. Many, many people were running into it and almost frolicking in it. It was like my first response—too bright to behold, and then I wanted to run into it. There were those who seemed to want to pull away from this glory cloud.
"Lord, who will enter into this great glory of God and enjoy this awesome power?" I asked.
"Those who have a pure heart and clean hands," the Lord answered. "They are the ones who will escape the horrible vacuum of the evil, dark cloud and be consumed with My glory. I will require you to tell these things to My people at an appointed time."
Now is that time! As I travel the world over, I see both of these manifestations happening. In fact, I see them beginning to intensify. Sometimes I say that both God and Satan are having a revival among men. We will now see more and more people running to each cloud, causing a great gulf or divide. Could this be the separation of sheep and goats, or the separation of wheat and tares?
I am not a conspiracy-theory person. I am not a fear-based preacher. I am not a prophet of doom. So what I am about to say is none of these. But, I am actually witnessing the spirits of the Antichrist, prepping the people of the earth (including many church goers) for the arrival of the Antichrist himself. I see demons (spirits of the Antichrist) going throughout all the earth. They are slowly re-programming the minds of men (doctrines of demons) to systematically disassemble the work of Christ and disengage the army of God.
You can avoid this, if you choose. If you choose not to, you will suffer the consequences. Please don't do that!" —Dr. Mark Barclay (marktbarclay.com[/QUOTE]

I have heard about the glory coming bringing healing vision, but never knew who it was that had it. Thank you for posting this.

Its an interesting thought that we could be going through the separation of sheep and goats now. I feel this could well be true. The darkness is increasing and perversion is of a degree close to Noah's time if not worse. And saints are waking up. This current move of God is actually called the Great Awakening.

Ive located Mark Barclay but the link in the post is inactive. Again, thank you stillness.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Then tell me where in the bible does it say that a believer who has abundant or excess possessions should not sell them to be given to the poor or where does it say that the passage in mat 19:16-30 should be ignored or disobeyed

Just walk the talk since you claim to believe that works are the fruit,result and evidence of your saving faith. I charge you to prove your faith and integrity.
I guess Abrahams was a dire sinner, as was Job, as were all the people who were blessed bu God,

and where did D.C. Ever say he never gave to the poor?

Agan, you need to stop.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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i don't agree your interpretation matches the context. I see it as Irsael vs Gentiles. He's talking about the nation as a whole not teaching he can lose salvation.

In another post I showed a Scripture that says if it were possible to be deceived. Explaining it's implying it's not possible, which At Robertson agrees. Yet you added "at this time".

You probably know most error in hermeneutics comes from using complex Scriptures to disregard the majority of the simple ones. And the simple Scriptures teach when you believe you pass from death to life. The old man died and the new man is reborn.

There are a few that appear to contradict, but I believe that comes from not understanding the meaning of the world salvation is not always regarding eternal destiny. This same word (Sozo) is used several different ways. Or by not looking at the entire context.

All of these are absolutely true FOR THE ONE WHO CONTINUES TO BELIEVE. They have zero application to the one who has stopped trusting in the blood of Christ. The promises belong to those who continue to believe. That's why we are exhorted and warned to keep believing what we first heard and believed.



The problem is not a matter of denial or rejection so much as is it is a problem of reading the promises of God out and away from the context of the whole counsel of God, which shows us that the sure promises are only sure for the one who continues to believe.



And here's a perfect example. You left off the last part of 1 Peter 1:5. You left off the 'through faith' part. We are kept by God's power for the day of salvation THROUGH FAITH.
"5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

There is no argument or debate possible about the necessity to keep believing in order to be saved because the Bible is clear about that. The only real question is, "can a true believer stop believing?" But consider that even Paul warns us to not be arrogant, but rather fear in regard to continuing in the kindness of God:
"19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:19-22 NASB)


So apparently Paul thought it quite possible that we could stop trusting and clinging to God's kindness in salvation.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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I guess Abrahams was a dire sinner, as was Job, as were all the people who were blessed bu God,

and where did D.C. Ever say he never gave to the poor?

Agan, you need to stop.
Also the tax collector gave back what he stole. And Jesus said he was justified. God is against the love of money, but I don't believe all are called to give everything they own. And if that was the case, if you have a car, house, and internet you are considered rich to many. So where does one draw the line? It can only come from being lead ourselves by Holy Spirit.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
They forget Paul's warning. If he gave up all to the poor, but have not love he gains nothing.
Have you given up all your worldly possessions?

I knew some people who believed that having worldly possessions was idolatry, so they burned their excess possessions in their backyard.

Funny thing is .......NOW ....they think they are doing so much better than everyone else and are filled with condemnation towards those who have not done the same.

Funny how believing one can do good works to save oneself, seems to puff one up with pride?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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They forget Paul's warning. If he gave up all to the poor, but have not love he gains nothing.
New International Version 1984 1 John 5:1-3 Faith in the Son of God Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

New International Version 1984 1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
If you click the little blue arrow thingy to the right of the quoted person's
name, it will take you directly back to the post that is being quoted
:)
oh my.... how have i missed this
 
Aug 15, 2009
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This does does not help you man, repent of slandering a brother, all your doing S making yourself look worse
All he's doing is posting scripture..... can't you handle that?

You make it sound like he's throwing water on the wicked witch of the west.

Then again, maybe he is.

Can't you stand being washed by the water of the Word?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Have you given up all your worldly possessions?

I knew some people who believed that having worldly possessions was idolatry, so they burned their excess possessions in their backyard.

Funny thing is .......NOW ....they think they are doing so much better than everyone else and are filled with condemnation towards those who have not done the same.

Funny how believing one can do good works to save oneself, seems to puff one up with pride?
Spoken like a true WOF'er
 
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PHart

Guest
LOL!

You don't think perhaps you have completely and utterly misunderstood these texts if you trying to invoke them as supporting salvation by works...
"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)



Peter's not teaching a 'works save' gospel, but are you able to explain how he can give an altar call saying, "save yourselves" and him not be teaching a 'works save' gospel that Paul condemned?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
passive aggression, sly remarks, and offensive statements said out of SPITE is different than reproof....


im not pointing a finger

but when i look at this thread.... i often see people who have no desire to help a brother or neighbor, but instead restore their image by dragging someone elses down

or even just cause strife and spark a heated back and forth....


if we are walking in the Holy spirit
why would we do such a thing


and if someone is focused on good works, same question...



we have plenty of time to edit, reread and choose not to send a message

if you cant be loving HERE

what chance would you have face to face?
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)



Peter's not teaching a 'works save' gospel, but are you able to explain how he can give an altar call saying, "save yourselves" and him not be teaching a 'works save' gospel that Paul condemned?
He is NOT teaching a gospel of works - you are quoting the verses that show you the context.

If you cannot see that he is saying "save yourselves" in terms of vs 38-39 then no one can help you...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)





He is NOT teaching a gospel of works - you are quoting the verses that show you the context.

If you cannot see that he is saying "save yourselves" in terms of vs 38-39 then no one can help you...
Amen...Save yourselves "in the context " of the Jews believing the gospel message of Christ and receiving His righteousness and not trying to achieve their own righteousness by their good works.
 
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PHart

Guest
i don't agree your interpretation matches the context. I see it as Irsael vs Gentiles. He's talking about the nation as a whole not teaching he can lose salvation.
The Bible talks very clearly about individual believers being cut out of the tree. And the Bible also explains you can't have eternal life if you aren't in Christ. Which should be obvious since Jesus IS eternal life. But the church has been taught that you can be cut out of Christ and still have eternal life.

Woe to the people who are responsible for leading little ones who believe in Christ to stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9) by giving them false comfort that they can not lose eternal life no matter what and they then do that 'no matter what' thinking they are safe. I'm not saying that to suggest you are one of them (I don't know that). I'm saying it because Jesus spoke in plain words about little ones who believe in him being able to go to the fiery hell. Or is this another example of OSAS's 'he didn't really mean what he plainly said'?


In another post I showed a Scripture that says if it were possible to be deceived. Explaining it's implying it's not possible, which At Robertson agrees. Yet you added "at this time".
Any Christian can be deceived at any time. I'm sure you are in agreement with that. So, obviously, that's not what Jesus was addressing. What he was addressing was the believer being deceived so as to ultimately be captured by the falseness of the end times and be lost. That can't happen. No one can have their salvation tricked away from them. But what the whole counsel of scripture teaches is you can lose it if you willingly give it up. The many warnings in the Bible are to not do that and instead to keep believing to the end to be saved. Even traditional Calvinist OSAS believes that! So the question really comes down to whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing.


You probably know most error in hermeneutics comes from using complex Scriptures to disregard the majority of the simple ones.
What I'm aware of is how OSAS has to make the simple plain passages 'not really' mean what they so plainly say in order to defend itself (I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS). That realization is actually what got me off the fence about OSAS. It's one of the most dishonest doctrines in all of Christianity. It says never mind what the obvious, plain words are--there's this esoteric meaning that makes the plain words 'not really' mean what they say.


And the simple Scriptures teach when you believe you pass from death to life. The old man died and the new man is reborn.
Yep. That's a fact. But that hardly means you can't lose what you received the moment you started believing. Non-OSAS means you are saved from the moment you started believing and you will remain saved as long as you continue that believing you started. It's amazing how many Christians at this time in church history think that's a works gospel. When did faith move over to the works side of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' argument?


There are a few that appear to contradict, but I believe that comes from not understanding the meaning of the world salvation is not always regarding eternal destiny. This same word (Sozo) is used several different ways. Or by not looking at the entire context.
And I've heard my share of them, lol. One guy even went so far as to say saved in 1 Corinthians 5:5 meant being saved from a dirty personal spirit. Of course he had to invent that because he couldn't acknowledge that the sinner in the church at Corinthians had to be turned over to the devil in order to be saved on the Day of Judgment. That wouldn't line up with his preconceived OSAS beliefs.