Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I'd bet God has a differing version than your version of yourself. :D

That said, how is it that in all your self-proclaimed righteousness, that you are most unlike Christ in this manner; that you show no grace toward others? Just wondering how you can be so right with God, and yet don't possess the things in Hebrews 12:14 toward others, both being an evidence of true conversion.
Did you just say that Seohce has no grace toward Others?

I just saw this on that side thing, and I'm leaving right after this.
WHO HAS LESS GRACE TOWARD OTHERS THAN SOME ON THIS THREAD.
YOU
DCON
EG
STONE
UNDERGRACE
MAGENTA
who else???

You are not here to show LOVE, GRACE, OR GOD'S FREEDOM IN CHRIST.

You're here to show YOUR self-righteousness, which is EXACTLY what it is.

Those promoting God's Laws are NOT self-righteous, like Seohce, for instance.
Do you even know what self-righteious means?
NO. You don't.

Oh. And somebody stop me. I just can't take your nonsense.


 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
One thing I'm sure is that what you're saying is to try to put me together with you in your guilty conscience, but I'm not buying that. Maybe you know who's doing those tactics according to the bible.

Oh, sell your computer, have your juice turned off, give to the poor and just clam up. :eek:
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
I have explained it several times. And I'm confident that you were active in all the places I did that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you simply did not read those posts.

I'm curious. Do you still not understand that works are only 'required' in salvation because they are the expected and obligatory outcome of having faith? John says the person who says they know Christ but has no godly agape love for others is a liar and does not know God and belongs to the devil. The love doesn't save the person, it signifies that they know Christ in salvation.
Oh PHart.

Those that say they are FREE and open-minded...
are the most UNFREE and closed-minded of all.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yup, my mind is absolutely closed towards any works based salvation,

But it does not mean I am going to let a person stay in that wrong belief,

because I have been there and I know it does not work and it is not what scripture teaches.


Oh PHart.

Those that say they are FREE and open-minded...
are the most UNFREE and closed-minded of all.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
I'd bet God has a differing version than your version of yourself. :D

That said, how is it that in all your self-proclaimed righteousness, that you are most unlike Christ in this manner; that you show no grace toward others? Just wondering how you can be so right with God, and yet don't possess the things in Hebrews 12:14 toward others, both being an evidence of true conversion.
Romans 12:9-21 LOVE MUST BE SINCERE. HATE WHAT IS EVIL, CLING TO WHAT IS GOOD. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE.(rom 6;16-23)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I just saw this on that side thing, and I'm leaving right after this.
WHO HAS LESS GRACE TOWARD OTHERS THAN SOME ON THIS THREAD.
YOU
DCON
EG
STONE
UNDERGRACE
MAGENTA
who else???
Seems we are in excellent company and there are others too :)....LESS GRACE....umm maybe strident in our defense of the true gospel as any disciple of Jesus should be.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Also the tax collector gave back what he stole. And Jesus said he was justified. God is against the love of money, but I don't believe all are called to give everything they own. And if that was the case, if you have a car, house, and internet you are considered rich to many. So where does one draw the line? It can only come from being lead ourselves by Holy Spirit.
A literal translation is not bad, per se, but it doesn't avail a man much. It is the spirit of the word that avails a man.

There is a repeated mistake in which we try to bring men back under law but with Christs words. It's a repeat of: you speak to us but do not let God speak to us or we will die.

It is possible to follow the letter of the word and give away everything you own, while in spirit, you are very selfish in many other ways, just as it is possible to never shoot a man, but in spirit, to murder him repeatedly. Outside clean, inside filthy.

The word is spirit because God is Spirit.
The words I give you, they are spirit and truth.
You have heard it said.........but I say........
It is the spirit that avails a man, but the letter kills.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,272
113
if only the Lord Jesus lives forever, has a permanent priesthood and is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him.

if only he would lose none of those the Father gives Him.

oh... wait... ! ;)
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
Oh, sell your computer, have your juice turned off, give to the poor and just clam up. :eek:
Are you not supposed to be doing these things. You who declares that works are fruit, result or evidence of a saving faith. So why don't you read the passage again and learn that WITH God all things are possible.

So why so many alibis and not just admit why you make it look impossible.

It's not that hard to understand and to know what kind of spirit a person has.

John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
"19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:19-22 NASB)



This is not speaking on a personal level. This chapter speaks about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. This is not saying that an individual who has the promise that the Lord will never leave them nor forsake them (Hebrews 13:5) will be rejected by the Lord.

But just as the Jews rejected their Messiah and therefore, as a whole, have fallen from the favored status they once occupied, if the Gentiles totally rejected Him, they could likewise be rejected.
False Teaching. A false teacher will reap a false teacher's reward. Deceivers have not the Spirit of God, but only a "form" of godliness at best.

Woe unto those who cannot see the difference! Pray & study the word for yourself, & do not depend on the words of men, for the words of men are poison; they have no life in their words, because they have no life in themselves.

The more they speak, the more they reveal their true ignorance of God.

From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

If lies are spoken, then that one has the heart of a liar.

If deceit is spoken, then that one has the heart of a deceiver.

If a man lifts himself above his capability, then his heart is lifted up within him. He is arrogant, prideful, & a hypocrite for putting on an act.

Be not deceived: if their words are not true, neither is their heart.

A heart of the light cannot speak the words of darkness, for there's no darkness in him.

Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in (saved)among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural
branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

These words are plain. Individual Gentiles CAN be cut off.

Note the warning about arrogance, conceit, & the lack of the fear of the Lord.

Arrogant & conceited christians, without reverenance, are the first in line to be cut off, thinking their doctrine, & not their active faith, permanently saves them.

They shall fall away, because they are pompous, thinking their status cannot possibly be stripped from them.

Israel fell many times for the same reasons. Look at their many examples.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
One thing I'm sure is that what you're saying is to try to put me together with you in your guilty conscience, but I'm not buying that. Maybe you know who's doing those tactics according to the bible.
my guilty conscious? My conscious is clear, your the one who should have a conscious of guilt, but it is evident you do not, it is also evident you want to attack, not discuss, so. Will add you to my growing list.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Seems we are in excellent company and there are others too :)....LESS GRACE....umm maybe strident in our defense of the true gospel as any disciple of Jesus should be.
Not sure who that was, but his list of people have one thing in common, they all evidently disagree with him,

i guess disagreeing with people is now called less grace,, to funny.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Unfortunately the same arguments are continuing, with a certain group attempting to not
agree what different people are saying is their view of faith and fellowship but to actively
condemn and cause them to feel condemned and turn to Christ, as they have, and become
like them.

In all my years of witnessing, it is for God to convict and the truth of Christ and His fellowship
to be the light through our words and deeds.

When Jesus called the rich man to give up his wealth and come and follow Him, this was a
very special situation. Jesus, the Son of God, was before him and he could have learnt from
the source. Jesus cut through all the showy playing at being a follower of God, and struck
him on the very issue he needed addressing. If Jesus was a teacher, he needed to follow Him.

Now I have met people who have given up everything to try and serve in their way and found
themselves going up a blind alley. Giving up wealth needs to follow a ministry that will support
the daily needs of the individual or else it is just spiritual self indulgence. Money is the flow of
appreciation from one individual to another, because of something given and shared.

Now where in faith has giving up of everything become a part of knowing Christ or part of Christs
law? I think those who wish to use this argument are just stirring up trouble.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
I like that, those who are saved by their own faith don't believe in works based salvation. Another pinnacle.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
Well it seems you have set the standard for your faith with Matthew 6 19-24. Which is faith in your own works to save.

The object of my faith is Jesus and His work.

Lies.

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20“But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Servants of God are entrusted with temporal blessings as well as spiritual ones. Because of faithfulness, they are given more.

Who is who? Who is the faithful, & who is the idolater?

We are known by our fruits, for Jesus said so.

Even the unsaved can see the spiritual wealth of the christian at times, for God gets the glory for blessing His faithful.

Those who challenge the servant of God challenges the God of the servant.

When the servant gives the scriptures & he is rebuked, that person is rebuking the Word, & not the servant.

If the servant's words are not true, then there's no cause, for God will not back him. Striving with him would be striving after the wind.

But if the servant's words are true, then fear, & not rebuke; for God will not allow His servant's words to fall to the ground.

 
Feb 7, 2017
1,605
140
63
so walking with unrepentant sin i believe is wrong also, the two just don`t go together, like oil and water...xox...
I agree. The Holy Scripture says:


  • “And ye know that he was manifested to take away sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him. My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.” (1John 3.5-9).
  • “We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not” (1John 5.18).
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
Hi Seohce, Happened to have this lose canon to reinforce, It's not from me but believe it's of the Lord
The Lord did tell me 6 years ago, "It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit."
The following is an end-time vision given to an established, seasoned minister of the gospel, Dr. Mark Barclay, and told in his own words. My heart was quickened when I read it and I thought: "This vision needs to be circulated to the body of Christ worldwide for we are seeing the increasing effects of it being unfolded in this hour, although it was given more than 25 years ago."
If you are skeptical of these things I would encourage you to listen to your heart as you read it and allow the Holy Spirit to bear witness with you.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. ... But the anointing which you have received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. For as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, remain in Him" (1 John 2:20, 27)
Here then is the vision told in the minister's own words:
"In 1987 I was a speaker at a camp meeting in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I spoke during the Thursday evening service. Dr. Kenneth E. Hagin spoke during the Friday evening service. I remember that I had just flown in from meetings in Paris, France. I mentioned to my wife how much I would like to stay and hear Dr. Hagin speak. She agreed.
As Dr. Hagin entered the pulpit, he began to pray in tongues. When he started, I started. A moment later, I was caught up in a vision (I was told later that it was probably more like a trance). As I went into this vision, I remember how Dr. Hagin's voice was getting quieter and quieter, until I could hear him no more. It was so quiet all around me I felt like I could hear my own heartbeat.
All of a sudden I felt evil, as if it were surrounding me. Anger rose up in me, and fear tried to get a grip on me. Suddenly, something caught my attention out of my left eye. I turned hard to the left to see what it was. I saw the circumference of the earth, from one edge to the other, and this horrible black, dark cloud was rising up over the horizon. Somehow I knew it would eventually fill the entire earth.
An alarm went off in me, screaming to me to run away from it as fast as I could. I felt like I should scream at it, to stop it in its tracks by using the name of Jesus. I began to rebuke it and started to say, "In the name of Jesus ... " I didn't quite get it out, and the Lord said, "That will do you no good."
"What?" I said.
The Lord said, "Son, you cannot use My name to stop what I prophesied. I am not causing this dark cloud, but I did prophesy it would happen in the last days."
I remember in the vision that I asked the Lord "What is this? What is this evil, tempestuous, dark cloud?"
The Lord said, "This is what I showed My prophet, Isaiah (Isa. 60:1-2). This is every evil thing you can name. It is every demon, it is every disease, it is sickness and bacterial attacks that haven't even been discovered yet. It will cause humans to do things to humans that aren't even human. It is filled with insanity, and many people will lose their mind and their faculties. It is murder, terror, rape, abuse, terrorism, torture and much worse. It is filled with deceptions, heresies, perversions and filth."
Some things the Lord showed me I have not had permission to speak.
I also saw people—many, many people. Some were running into the dark cloud, and some were being sucked into it. It reminded me of this very powerful Shop-vac I have. It will not only suck up the dirt but also my tools, if I don't pay attention.
I saw may people screaming with terror and actually being dragged into this cloud. Though they were refusing it and resisting it with all their strength, they still did not possess the power to stop it.
I was so disturbed when I saw a cross on someone's pocket or jewelry. I remember saying to the Lord, "Who are those people being drawn into this filth and terror, wearing the Christian symbol of the cross? Who are these people, not even resisting? And who are these people, resisting with all their might but it does them no good? They just keep disappearing into this horrible, evil cloud of gross darkness."
The Lord answered me and said, "Oh, these are those who do not have clean hands and a pure heart. They have been warned but ignored the warnings. Some even wanted this filth as their lifestyle."
I asked, "Well, who are these wearing the cross?"
<iframe id="6421ee36eb" name="6421ee36eb" src="https://charisma-d.openx.net/w/1.0/afr?auid=536873539&cb=7688006" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" width="300" height="250"><a href="https://charisma-d.openx.net/w/1.0/rc?cs=6421ee36eb&cb=7688006" ><img src="https://charisma-d.openx.net/w/1.0/ai?auid=536873539&cs=6421ee36eb&cb=7688006" border="0" alt=""></a></iframe>
advertisement
"Oh," the Lord said, "These are the people who claim Me as Savior. Many of them have desired this filth and even fought for it. They make excuses but are not excused. The ones who are resisting thought My prophets were exaggerating and from the old school, and they denied the warnings. Now that this evil has come, they possess little to no power, and certainly not enough to resist and overcome this horrible onslaught of enemy power. Only those with clean hands and a pure heart will be able to totally resist this. It will cover the earth."
There was much more to this, but I began to come out of the vision and once again heard Brother Hagin speaking in tongues from the pulpit.
I asked my wife what had happened, and she said, "Nothing, he hasn't done anything but pray in the spirit."

I began to realize that nobody seemed to see this vision or get caught up into this trance but me. I held my wife's hand a little tighter and began to pray fervently in the spirit. As I did, I got caught up in the spirit again.
Just like before, Brother Hagin's voice got quieter and quieter until it was gone. I found myself alone again. It was so quiet I could hear my own heartbeat. Suddenly, a piercing light hit the corner of my right eye. It was so bright that I instantly shrouded my head with my hands and arms. It reminded me of the intense light that my optometrist uses to examine the back of my eyes. Actually, it was much brighter than that.
Everything within me said, "Turn and look into it. Turn now, and run into it." Yet there was this hesitation because it was so bright it seemed to shine through me. Finally I gave in to it and looked directly at it. With both eyes I saw the depth of this bright cloud. Just like the dark cloud I had seen before, it was coming up over the horizon of the earth. I could tell that it was going to cover the planet. I just knew that I knew that nothing could stop it.
I remembered asking the Lord, "What is this? What is this massive, earth-consuming, bright cloud?"
The Lord answered me and said, "Oh, this is My glory. This is the glory cloud that I showed My prophet Isaiah (Isa. 61:1-2). This is what I promised, that My glory will fill the whole earth."
"Well," I asked, "what is inside the cloud?"
"It is filled with the greatest miracles humans have ever seen. It is filled with healing for every disease, and a cure for every sickness. It is power to overcome sin and filth—to receive the truth and reject error, heresy and doctrines of demons. It is a full manifestation of My Spirit. It is the full anointing of Jesus Christ and more, much more."
He showed me other things that I have no permission to speak at this time.

I saw people in this vision, just like before with the cloud of darkness. Many, many people were running into it and almost frolicking in it. It was like my first response—too bright to behold, and then I wanted to run into it. There were those who seemed to want to pull away from this glory cloud.
"Lord, who will enter into this great glory of God and enjoy this awesome power?" I asked.
"Those who have a pure heart and clean hands," the Lord answered. "They are the ones who will escape the horrible vacuum of the evil, dark cloud and be consumed with My glory. I will require you to tell these things to My people at an appointed time."
Now is that time! As I travel the world over, I see both of these manifestations happening. In fact, I see them beginning to intensify. Sometimes I say that both God and Satan are having a revival among men. We will now see more and more people running to each cloud, causing a great gulf or divide. Could this be the separation of sheep and goats, or the separation of wheat and tares?
I am not a conspiracy-theory person. I am not a fear-based preacher. I am not a prophet of doom. So what I am about to say is none of these. But, I am actually witnessing the spirits of the Antichrist, prepping the people of the earth (including many church goers) for the arrival of the Antichrist himself. I see demons (spirits of the Antichrist) going throughout all the earth. They are slowly re-programming the minds of men (doctrines of demons) to systematically disassemble the work of Christ and disengage the army of God.
You can avoid this, if you choose. If you choose not to, you will suffer the consequences. Please don't do that!" —Dr. Mark Barclay (marktbarclay.com
I have heard about the glory coming bringing healing vision, but never knew who it was that had it. Thank you for posting this.

Its an interesting thought that we could be going through the separation of sheep and goats now. I feel this could well be true. The darkness is increasing and perversion is of a degree close to Noah's time if not worse. And saints are waking up. This current move of God is actually called the Great Awakening.

Ive located Mark Barclay but the link in the post is inactive. Again, thank you stillness.[/QUOTE]

1. Kenneth Hagin is a false teacher, preacher, & prophet. God's servants know this is so.

2. It's ironic the Great Falling Away is labeled by the blind as the Great Awakening.
:rolleyes:
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
i don't agree your interpretation matches the context. I see it as Irsael vs Gentiles. He's talking about the nation as a whole not teaching he can lose salvation.

In another post I showed a Scripture that says if it were possible to be deceived. Explaining it's implying it's not possible, which At Robertson agrees. Yet you added "at this time".

You probably know most error in hermeneutics comes from using complex Scriptures to disregard the majority of the simple ones. And the simple Scriptures teach when you believe you pass from death to life. The old man died and the new man is reborn.

There are a few that appear to contradict, but I believe that comes from not understanding the meaning of the world salvation is not always regarding eternal destiny. This same word (Sozo) is used several different ways. Or by not looking at the entire context.
Read Romans 11 with three or four commentaries, & see how your beliefs hold up.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0