Not By Works

[PHart]

What I understand is that with love there is no obligation.

Then you do not understand.
Paul describes our obligation here:

"12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—" (Romans 8:12 NIV)

"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another" (Romans 13:8 NIV)


​

I think you are thinking of the natural man too much and doing good deeds.

What do you do when you know to act in godly love but you don't want to? Do you just not think about it for fear of being 'in works'? Do you only love as God loves when you feel like it?

Even the unbelievers have love but with a selfish motive of receiving the same back. Agape is not so.

If you knew what agape love is you'd know that unbelievers do not love as God loves. That is best illustrated in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

The love of unbelievers and the love of believers is not distinguished by whether or not it is done in the flesh vs. in the Spirit. It is distinguished by what it does. Godly love is quite different than the love of mere mortals. That's why we need God in us to love as He loves.

 

[PHart]

A clear interpretation of scripture is reading out of a passage what the Holy Spirit has said; but many abusers of the bible read into a passage what they want it to say. Many cults are formed in this way, and many who follow their twisted teachings. Thank you for letting your light shine on this subject.

Well, I've never called OSAS a cult, but I suppose by what you say here it is.

OSAS is the most dishonest doctrine that I can think of in the church today. So many plain passages have to be interpreted by OSAS so they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. A plain read of the whole counsel of scripture concerning eternal life will not bring you to a OSAS conclusion. Only by isolating passages away from what the all the Bible says about the subject, and redefining terms, will one come to the conclusion from the Bible that OSAS is true.

 

[PHart]

I'd bet God has a differing version than your version of yourself.

That said, how is it that in all your self-proclaimed righteousness...

It's interesting in the church that the fourth type of soil in the parable of the sower is purely theoretical and to think you can get there, or (gasp!) you might actually be that kind of soil is nothing more than self righteousness.

Maybe that's why so many Christians are content to be, and remain, the third kind of soil. The church has taught them that the fourth kind of soil is unattainable, so stop trying.....besides that would be 'works' if you did try.

 

[PHart]

But instead of preaching how much we need good works. I'd rather display them. God knows I am growing in loving people more, but I do believe He calls us to live our message out to one another. Not simply debate about it with one another.

No, He wants us to preach about it, too:

"24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another;and all the more as you see the day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25 NASB)

 

[Persuaded]

Well, I've never called OSAS a cult, but I suppose by what you say here it is.

OSAS is the most dishonest doctrine that I can think of in the church today. So many plain passages have to be interpreted by OSAS so they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. A plain read of the whole counsel of scripture concerning eternal life will not bring you to a OSAS conclusion. Only by isolating passages away from what the all the Bible says about the subject, and redefining terms, will one come to the conclusion from the Bible that OSAS is true.[/QUOTE

With that foolish statement you have proven that all your post should be ignored.

 

[stonesoffire]

Then you do not understand.
Paul describes our obligation here:

"12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—" (Romans 8:12 NIV)

"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another" (Romans 13:8 NIV)


​

What do you do when you know to act in godly love but you don't want to? Do you just not think about it for fear of being 'in works'? Do you only love as God loves when you feel like it?


If you knew what agape love is you'd know that unbelievers do not love as God loves. That is best illustrated in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

The love of unbelievers and the love of believers is not distinguished by whether or not it is done in the flesh vs. in the Spirit. It is distinguished by what it does. Godly love is quite different than the love of mere mortals. That's why we need God in us to love as He loves.

Ok. Your last sentence I agree with. You asked what do we do when we don't want to love as we know we should. Or words similar. My answer is, we die with Him, and rise with Him...and state it either in our mind, or out loud. ( just don't do it out loud in front of people)

That I know is the right answer, but am not 100 percent yet. Still in process. Or draw on His love is another way...I've done both. Am sure you have too or you wouldn't of said what you said in your post.

 

[stonesoffire]

It's interesting in the church that the fourth type of soil in the parable of the sower is purely theoretical and to think you can get there, or (gasp!) you might actually be that kind of soil is nothing more than self righteousness.

Maybe that's why so many Christians are content to be, and remain, the third kind of soil. The church has taught them that the fourth kind of soil is unattainable, so stop trying.....besides that would be 'works' if you did try.

You can't plow your own ground of your heart, and it's not you or me who seeds it once it is plowed and prepared. That is the work of Holy Spirit.

That whole parable IMO, is the way God draws us to Himself. Before the seed takes root, we may be all those types of ground.

 

[PHart]

So works do not earn salvation is what you are saying basically, yet they have some role to play in salvation, so what I, and maybe

others are not understanding is the role of these works?

Well, you folks seem to understand the role of works in salvation without them earning salvation, but then you folks accuse me and others of being 'works salvationists' if we say the same thing you do about works in salvation. It's quite humorous....when it's not frustrating. It's like you can't hear us and that you can only hear what you've been told the opposing argument has to be.

 

[PHart]

You can't plow your own ground of your heart, and it's not you or me who seeds it once it is plowed and prepared. That is the work of Holy Spirit.

That whole parable IMO, is the way God draws us to Himself. Before the seed takes root, we may be all those types of ground.

Then why do so many Christians call other Christians 'self righteous' for thinking they can be, or are, fourth type of soil believers?

It's almost like a kind of envy. You know, like when Cain murdered Abel.

 

[PHart]

Well, I've never called OSAS a cult, but I suppose by what you say here it is.

OSAS is the most dishonest doctrine that I can think of in the church today. So many plain passages have to be interpreted by OSAS so they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. A plain read of the whole counsel of scripture concerning eternal life will not bring you to a OSAS conclusion. Only by isolating passages away from what the all the Bible says about the subject, and redefining terms, will one come to the conclusion from the Bible that OSAS is true.[/QUOTE

With that foolish statement you have proven that all your post should be ignored.

OSAS is an indoctrination. That's why you can't see it for what it is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I've never called OSAS a cult, but I suppose by what you say here it is.

OSAS is the most dishonest doctrine that I can think of in the church today. So many plain passages have to be interpreted by OSAS so they 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS. A plain read of the whole counsel of scripture concerning eternal life will not bring you to a OSAS conclusion. Only by isolating passages away from what the all the Bible says about the subject, and redefining terms, will one come to the conclusion from the Bible that OSAS is true.[/QUOTE

With that foolish statement you have proven that all your post should be ignored.

it has been quite peaceful..lol

his works based theology bleeds.. and is exposed for all to see,

 

[PeterJens]

When you fall in love with someone, everything about them is great.
Now Jesus taught principles of life and obedience.

I would suggest those who claim to love Him yet turn a deaf ear to His words
and heart are self serving and conning themselves. God would be very odd accepting
sinners in their sin with no prospect of resolution of a desire for righteousness. It is a
complete denial of both Him and His Father. But then why would you trust any teaching
from this school of thought if that is there starting place.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, you folks seem to understand the role of works in salvation without them earning salvation, but then you folks accuse me and others of being 'works salvationists' if we say the same thing you do about works in salvation. It's quite humorous....when it's not frustrating. It's like you can't hear us and that you can only hear what you've been told the opposing argument has to be.

Everyone hears you. The thing is you make contradictory statements and then misunderstand certain Scriptures such as "save yourselves" from Peter in Acts 2:40. You stated it was works salvation. I pointed out your contradiction. The thing that is interesting is you are incapable of accepting the fact you made contradictory statements. Why not just man up Phart and admit it? Everyone can see it (who are honest anyhow).

In respect, you need further understanding of the passage you've misused.

Perhaps this will help you:

saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation: meaning, the chief priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, and elders of the people, chiefly, who were a perverse generation of men; and upon whom, for their impenitence and unbelief, for their rejection of the Messiah, and their evil treatment of him, wrath and ruin would come upon them, to the uttermost, very quickly; wherefore the apostle exhorts to separate from them, and not partake of their sins, lest they should also of their plagues; but come out from among them, and so, in a temporal sense, save themselves from the destruction that would quickly come on their nation, city, and temple; and so the Arabic version renders it, "escape from this rough generation". - John Gill

If the passage meant what you're implying "do works" then the audience would have been like "We've already been doing that!" so it is not in the sense you are trying to give to it. The save yourselves meant to lean on Christ as Messiah, in other words "He was your Savior, repent, TRUST in HIM", not on works, into which you are twisting the text. Context supports this. Think about it. You are MAKING Peter say what you want him to say instead of letting Scripture speak in its context.

You do this often in your zeal and make many errors my friend.

 

[UnderGrace]

I was not indoctrinated, I can read it plainly in scripture, salvation is eternal life, not temporal life

I have understanding of how works do not earn salvation, but no understanding how they have role in salvation, apart from earning.

This is why I asked.

Are you saying that even though we do not earn salvation, we are obligated to maintain it by continued belief or by continued work, because sometimes you say one and then sometimes the other?

Well, you folks seem to understand the role of works in salvation without them earning salvation, but then you folks accuse me and others of being 'works salvationists' if we say the same thing you do about works in salvation. It's quite humorous....when it's not frustrating. It's like you can't hear us and that you can only hear what you've been told the opposing argument has to be.

 

[TruthTalk]

Well, I've never called OSAS a cult, but I suppose by what you say here it is.

You misinterpret the bible, you preach a false gospel, and constantly insult kind loving people here on Chrstianchat.com. This is a Notice to this forum; PHart is going on ignore, and please do not respond to anything I have to say in the future.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, also we forget that Jesus is the sower, and He loves all types of soil, so much so that He is willing to sow seed on any type of ground.

A typical farmer would never really plant his seed on anything but good soil.

But then Jesus is anything but a typical farmer

You can't plow your own ground of your heart, and it's not you or me who seeds it once it is plowed and prepared. That is the work of Holy Spirit.

That whole parable IMO, is the way God draws us to Himself. Before the seed takes root, we may be all those types of ground.

 

[PeterJens]

Security is a dangerous thing. Just look at how teenagers abuse parents.
Look at how Israel though saved out of Egypt still worshiped a golden calf.

Think of Korahs rebellion, and of so many movements in the church that have ended
in heresy and corruption. It is our humbleness and insecurity that keeps us true. No
matter how long we have walked with the Lord, we can still go astray.

So many believers have opposed the basics of love and good works which demonstrates
how presumptious they have become while condemning others to hell like it is a normal
thing for a believer to do. They have no shame while boasting in their sin, which is so
hypocritical to not even be a joke.

I have learnt thankfully the blind will stay blind, because they have chosen their path freely,
so deserve all they will receive.

 

[stonesoffire]

Then why do so many Christians call other Christians 'self righteous' for thinking they can be, or are, fourth type of soil believers?

It's almost like a kind of envy. You know, like when Cain murdered Abel.

Am about weary of this right now. How about when I see it I will point it out to you. Not going to go back and review.

Will say this though...it's like a religious spirit sneaks in to bring condemnation. That is what I see most.

 

[stonesoffire]

It is our humbleness and insecurity that keeps us true.

Here you go PHart. Didn't take long. What do you say to this?

 

[stonesoffire]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to UnderGrace again.

That deserved two reps UG...

I have to go...hubby calls.