Not By Works

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Nov 22, 2015
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"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)



hi! i suspect it has something to do with the Greek Text, and the way it's translated in the NIV (and other English translations). many translations render it "be saved", due to the tense and voice of the verb, just as it's used in John 5:34, as follows:

"Even though I do not accept human testimony, I say these things so that you may be saved."

funny thing, same verb expressed the same way in Greek, but none of the translators render it "save yourselves" there?
Yes...that seems to be exactly what is going on.

Acts 2:40 (NASB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"


 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Ha! ankle biting are you? lol
Who was it that schooled you on what ankle biting was?

Ouch!;):p
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you did well. lol

I've always heard that we accuse others of the same things we have in ourselves. :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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The Lord is most seen in the true believer as they walk in His truth, as they obey His commands. Jesus said if we love Him we will obey His commands.

This is the Jesus-based belief system and is the true gospel of grace. The gospel of grace empowers the believer to obey the righteous requirements of the law.

That's when the world sees Christ and when we see Christ in one another. The Holy Spirit brings life to the words of God and they become alive in us and grow fruit and more fruit and abundant fruit. Hallelujah!

It's all of God's grace and not our own works. Man's works are not God's work. So if you see God's glory revealed in the heart of the believer, it's because that person is obedient to the Lord and works with God's grace through obedience.

I certainly agree to the fruit of Christ's life which brings glory to Him alone is all of Him manifesting in and through us so that others can see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

There are 2 ways or mind sets or "belief systems" in viewing "If you love Me you will keep my commandments".

All Christians agree what the true Christian life looks like when Christ is manifesting the fruit of His life in us. The dis-connect comes when people talk about "how is this done".

Works-based belief systems use the Old Covenant mindset of "doing to achieve" to try to effect transformation in Christians. The outward keeping of commandments as can be seen in the law of Moses.

Grace-based belief relies totally on the life and work of Christ in them to transform them by His love and grace towards us.


A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant =
Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..

So they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..
in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ.

They would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]
We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments in 1 John 3.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.


...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. We try to mix the Old Covenant ( before the cross and resurrection ) with the New Covenant and we get a religious mess.

Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
 
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Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Romans 1:28-32 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile TO RETAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, GREED and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, DECEIT and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, ARROGANT and BOASTFUL; they INVENT ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. ALTHOUGH THEY KNOW GOD’S RIGHTEOUS DECREE that those who do such things DESERVE DEATH, they not only CONTINUE TO DO THESE VERY THINGS but also APPROVE of those who PRACTICE them.

Psalm 49:12-14 But man, despite his riches, does not endure; he is like the beasts that perish. This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who APPROVE THEIR SAYINGS. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.

2 Corinthians 10:18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a WORKMAN who does not need to be ashamed and WHO CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD OF TRUTH.
Hi Seohce...Thank you for posting these Scriptures...The reason is i went to visit my son today who is in prison, he has been walking with our Lord for 3 months...Today he was telling me how hard he is finding it being among people who are walking in darkness, and now he has the light of the Holy Spirit in him he sees what Jesus has set him free from:)...So tomorrow when i send him his email, i will send these to him, to remind him when he feels his light is only a flicker, he can be the flicker on the hill that shines among the darkness...So although your post is for someone else, i just want you to know that i have received these Scriptures well...God is wonderful, he uses us all to help someone when we least expect it so thank you...xox...
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Hi my friend Jimbo.
Your post has touched me. I fully empathise with your last sentence cause I have been there as well.
I still carry some of that baggage, not in terms of loving as such but allowing myself to be loved.

Putting up barriers and being guarded.
Love is intrinsic to our nature and when we have robbed of it, it is difficult to receive it.

However knowing where we are coming from and working through the pain and allowing the ultimate lover of our souls to heal us we ultimately seek to love others. Probably because we don't want them to suffer like we have.

And that's the grace of God in us.
Love our brothers, love our neighbours and even love our enemies.

God bless you Jimbo and I pray your love for others grows and grows and mine as well
hey billy i just wondered where that love comes from as a child,, and i see a childs love as pure as gold ,, i think its corruption that roots in that the child that loses as they get older... i pray you never lose that billy thats a good asset you keep.. its gets so hard somedays with temps pooring up to 28 then working in a hot spot where no wind or air.....i lost my cool oops....... i cursed a duble curse....then i realised oops and then i examined my self and changed back to normal being thankful for his grace.. and then getting on with it.,... again and again and again,,,, 3 times and 1 hour and a half wasted.... i was litteraly driping sweat like a sauna and like i was clucking for sugar... any i did a brave heart special and shouted you bastard .... now when i look at that i call it a basard coz my work was not of the father at that point it was of satan,, i got scared and checked my self
 
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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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hey billy i just wondered where that love comes from as a child,, and i see a childs love as pure as gold ,, i think its corruption that roots in that the child that loses as they get older... i pray you never lose that billy thats a good asset you keep.. its gets so hard somedays with temps pooring up to 28 then working in a hot spot where no wind or air.....i lost my cool oops....... i cursed a duble curse....then i realised oops and then i examined my self and changed back to normal being thankful for his grace.. and then getting on with it.,... again and again and again,,,, 3 times and 1 hour and a half wasted.... i was litteraly driping sweat like a sauna and like i was clucking for sugar... any i did a brave heart special and shouted you bastard .... now when i look at that i call it a basard coz my work was not of the father at that point it was of satan,, i got scared and checked my self
I pray the same for you Jimbo.
We are all a work in progress.
Our Father knows that.
We get it wrong, we fess up and he says let's keep going together.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Never take the "descriptions" of what the life of Christ looks like when He is manifesting in and through us and turn them into as "commandments" to keep "in order" to obtain or maintain salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord.

Jesus and Paul described what the true life of Christ is like when He is manifesting His life in us but works-based belief systems take these descriptions and turn them into " you must do these things in order to remain saved." That is not the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross.

We are learning how to live by the life of Another in us and only the accurate preaching and teaching of Christ Himself which is the gospel message will provide the proper nutrients for us to grow in Him as we ought.
Funny thing a bout your first paragraph. About ten years ago or so, I was trying to figure out what the sermon on the mount meant. I was wondering: okay, so how do I become poor in spirit so I will be blessed?? Hahaha!!!
 
May 12, 2017
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Once again you misunderstand what we who hold to the works of Jesus are saying Meggido.

We brag on Him not on self. That does not mean that we passively sit and do nothing. We sit down with Him in the heavenlies in His victorious resurrected life, and do as He ordains for us. Those works He intended before creation began.

Now there are various degrees yet of understanding. Offense however, will not draw anyone to what one is preaching. An offended man is hard to win, true? Seems to me I read that somewhere.
To the contrary stones. Your little group talk great lengths about sitting there passively letting Christ work in them and they do not need to bear fruit in order to abide.....that is doing nothing and burying your talent in the gerund...

I have never, ever stated we brag on ourselves....your implications are growing old....
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
To the contrary stones. Your little group talk great lengths about sitting there passively letting Christ work in them and they do not need to bear fruit in order to abide.....that is doing nothing and burying your talent in the gerund...

I have never, ever stated we brag on ourselves....your implications are growing old....

lol.. I hope this is a typo.

We bear fruit BECAUSE or WHEN we abide, not to abide.

it is snot all about self..
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Funny thing a bout your first paragraph. About ten years ago or so, I was trying to figure out what the sermon on the mount meant. I was wondering: okay, so how do I become poor in spirit so I will be blessed?? Hahaha!!!
would you be in agreement then soldiering on is a duty that we must bare for our selfs or is it The strentgh of God him very self that lift us to soldier on ?? coz the way i see this is if you dont carry on being a soldier when your at war ,,,, you are dead ,,,,,,,,, so what works must we do on the field of battle to satay alive ? my answer is we must stay on duty..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Funny thing a bout your first paragraph. About ten years ago or so, I was trying to figure out what the sermon on the mount meant. I was wondering: okay, so how do I become poor in spirit so I will be blessed?? Hahaha!!!

have you ever looked up the greek word for "poor" in that passage? The english really waters that verse down.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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lol.. I hope this is a typo.

We bear fruit BECAUSE or WHEN we abide, not to abide.

it is snot all about self..

Yes..I'm sure he got that backwards and meant to say "Abiding in Christ is what bears His fruit in us."

The abiding comes first because we are in Christ and He is in us.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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Peter is teaching save yourselves by turning to the Lord. I think this a great Arminian type Scripture. That we do have the ability to turn to the Lord.

"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” " (Acts 2:38-40 NIV)



Peter's not teaching a 'works save' gospel, but are you able to explain how he can give an altar call saying, "save yourselves" and him not be teaching a 'works save' gospel that Paul condemned?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Peter is teaching save yourselves by turning to the Lord. I think this a great Arminian type Scripture. That we do have the ability to turn to the Lord.

I think it is better to stay away from the Armenian/Calvin/Roman/Protestant etc discussions, I think that is why so many ar confused and can not understand what others are saying, hey try to put them under a leader and Sumer they all think alike.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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The Bible talks very clearly about individual believers being cut out of the tree. And the Bible also explains you can't have eternal life if you aren't in Christ. Which should be obvious since Jesus IS eternal life. But the church has been taught that you can be cut out of Christ and still have eternal life.

Woe to the people who are responsible for leading little ones who believe in Christ to stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9) by giving them false comfort that they can not lose eternal life no matter what and they then do that 'no matter what' thinking they are safe. I'm not saying that to suggest you are one of them (I don't know that). I'm saying it because Jesus spoke in plain words about little ones who believe in him being able to go to the fiery hell. Or is this another example of OSAS's 'he didn't really mean what he plainly said'?



Any Christian can be deceived at any time. I'm sure you are in agreement with that. So, obviously, that's not what Jesus was addressing. What he was addressing was the believer being deceived so as to ultimately be captured by the falseness of the end times and be lost. That can't happen. No one can have their salvation tricked away from them. But what the whole counsel of scripture teaches is you can lose it if you willingly give it up. The many warnings in the Bible are to not do that and instead to keep believing to the end to be saved. Even traditional Calvinist OSAS believes that! So the question really comes down to whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing.



What I'm aware of is how OSAS has to make the simple plain passages 'not really' mean what they so plainly say in order to defend itself (I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS). That realization is actually what got me off the fence about OSAS. It's one of the most dishonest doctrines in all of Christianity. It says never mind what the obvious, plain words are--there's this esoteric meaning that makes the plain words 'not really' mean what they say.



Yep. That's a fact. But that hardly means you can't lose what you received the moment you started believing. Non-OSAS means you are saved from the moment you started believing and you will remain saved as long as you continue that believing you started. It's amazing how many Christians at this time in church history think that's a works gospel. When did faith move over to the works side of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' argument?



And I've heard my share of them, lol. One guy even went so far as to say saved in 1 Corinthians 5:5 meant being saved from a dirty personal spirit. Of course he had to invent that because he couldn't acknowledge that the sinner in the church at Corinthians had to be turned over to the devil in order to be saved on the Day of Judgment. That wouldn't line up with his preconceived OSAS beliefs.
I appreciate your response.

Scripture is far more clear about Christ keeping people saved than it is about people potentially losing their salvation.

If you are a NEW CREATION how do you lose it?

The issues here is that I see people as a brand new creation. People who want to joyfully follow the Lord. And this work is done by God. He prepared the good works for us to walk in advance.

There's Scriptures for and against both positions.

What I don't appreciate is the idea that people who believe different to you are being dishonest. I also don't appreciate the use of attacking people's character who disagree with you. This is a common tactic in "persuasion", but really it's manipulation.

I could just as easily bring up the fact that you ignored discussing the context that Paul is discussing Jews vs Gentiles and simply chose to say how wrong I am. Which to me is incredibly dishonest.

I chose to address the Scriptures you are referencing to have a discussion about them. You chose to attack the character of those who disagree with you.

You seem to think you know the motivations of why people say and do the things they do. You say it over and over, they do it because of this... or they say this because of that... discernment isn't knowing other people's motivations. It's understanding our own.

And unfortunately, I am seeing that a lot from people in this thread who believe you can lose their salvation. It doesn't really surprise me though because if people don't believe they are truly a new creation in Christ why would they act like it?

But I did expect differently of you because of our past life-giving discussions.

Let me reiterate for you: I don't have a hidden agenda. I consider the whole of Scripture. I consider the original languages. I read Scripture consistently. I have an incredible relationship with Holy Spirit. I'm in ministry. My life is devoted to God. I've had ridiculous encounters with God and seen Him do many supernatural things. I know down to my core how real He is.

But, I still don't agree with how you interpret some Scriptures. Not because I'm being dishonest, but because I see things differently than you do.

I don't say these things to brag, it's all Him, He has won me over with His love, goodness, and kindness, but I say them to paint a different picture of myself and also others you are discussing with.

Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. And maybe, just maybe, I am wrong.

I am certain that at the end of our lives, Jesus is going to focus on our love for one another. Not our Scripture understanding. The intentions of our heart behind our communication not the principles behind what we teach. He is the one who made Scripture appear to contradict. Maybe He did it so we can learn to love those we disagree with?

What you call "dishonesty" is simply people trying to take the whole counsel of God. You're not the only one who knows Scripture nor Holy Spirit. We are all working this out together.

I used to be one of the most legalistic people. I used to be afraid of losing my salvation daily. I would confess my sins daily. Get "saved" over and over and over again. But at the end of the day? It was all about me. I was so afraid for myself, my focus was only on myself, I was so afraid of being wrong I would focus on the worst possible scenarios of Scripture taught to ensure I was being right. I've made so many of the same arguments I see here. It doesn't mean I'm right today, but it does mean I have understanding.

Scripture teaches us that the new man is created in true righteousness and holiness. I believe it. I believe He designed us to walk in good works. Just as Scripture teaches. I believe He changed the tree so we would have fruit. I believe He changed the root structure itself by putting us in Christ. I believe that "abiding in Him" is believing that we are joined with Him. Yes, these our spiritual truths. But I also believe this spiritual truths are what everything else flows from. I don't believe a person can lose their "new creation status" because just as our good works didn't turn us from sinners to saints, I don't believe bad works turn us from saints to sinners. And the truth is where people do struggle with "bad works". These are called works of flesh. They are not works of Spirit. This is a situation of someone not living out of who they truly are in Christ.

What do you think IN CHRIST means? I will tell you after years of study on this topic. It's referring to the work done in the Spirit. It's referring to us being joined in Spirit. So when Paul says things like: I can do all things through Christ he's talking about the new creation reality we now enjoy. This is why he says the body is a "tent". I can give you continual references to this understanding. Paul also says he knows no one according to the flesh. Why? Because to Paul the new person in the Spirit is more real than the person in the flesh.

And so while people DO struggle it's because they don't truly understand who they are. But when people do understand who they are in Christ. Wow. Everything that people are taught to "do" suddenly begins to flow. They love, they live, they have joy, and they express Christ as His witnesses on Earth.

Telling people they can lose their salvation. Makes life about them. Hence, why we have so many self-centered believers because they focus on themselves instead of the Father. We can't even define what "good works" are, yet, we spend hours and hours debating it. And sadly those who debate we need them the most. From my experience are the ones who lack them the most.

C.
 
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Mar 7, 2016
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I appreciate your response.

Scripture is far more clear about Christ keeping people saved than it is about people potentially losing their salvation.

If you are a NEW CREATION how do you lose it?

The issues here is that I see people as a brand new creation. People who want to joyfully follow the Lord. And this work is done by God. He prepared the good works for us to walk in advance.

There's Scriptures for and against both positions.

What I don't appreciate you is the idea that people who believe different to you are being dishonest.

I could just as easily bring up the fact that you ignored the context that Paul is discussing Jews vs Gentiles and simply chose to say how wrong I am. Which to me is incredibly dishonest.

I chose to address the Scriptures you are referencing to have a discussion about them. You chose to add attack the character of those who disagree with you.

And unfortunately, I am seeing that a lot from people in this thread who believe you can lose their salvation. It doesn't really surprise me though because if people don't believe they are truly a new creation in Christ why would they act like it?

But I did expect differently of you because of our past life-giving discussions.

Let me reiterate for you: I don't have a hidden agenda. I consider the whole of Scripture. I consider the original languages. I read Scripture consistently. I have an incredible relationship with Holy Spirit. I'm in ministry. My life is devoted to God. I've had ridiculous encounters with God and seen Him do many supernatural things. I know down to my core how real He is.

But, I still don't agree with how you interpret some Scriptures. Not because I'm being dishonest, but because I see things differently than you do.

I don't say these things to brag, it's all Him, He has won me over with His love, goodness, and kindness, but I say them to paint a different picture of myself and also others you are discussing with.

Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. And maybe, just maybe, I am wrong.

I am certain that at the end of our lives, Jesus is going to focus on our love for one another. Not our Scripture understanding. The intentions of our heart behind our communication not the principles behind what we teach. He is the one who made Scripture appear to contradict. Maybe He did it so we can learn to love those we disagree with?

What you call "dishonesty" is simply people trying to take the whole counsel of God. You're not the only one who knows Scripture nor Holy Spirit. We are all working this out together.

I used to be one of the most legalistic people. I used to be afraid of losing my salvation daily. I would confess my sins daily. Get "saved" over and over and over again. But at the end of the day? It was all about me. I was so afraid for myself, my focus was only on myself, I was so afraid of being wrong I would focus on the worst possible scenarios of Scripture taught to ensure I was being right. I've made so many of the same arguments I see here. It doesn't mean I'm right today, but it does mean I have understanding.

Scripture teaches us that the new man is created in true righteousness and holiness. I believe it. I believe He designed us to walk in good works. Just as Scripture teaches. I believe He changed the tree so we would have fruit. I believe He changed the root structure itself by putting us in Christ. I believe that "abiding in Him" is believing that we are joined with Him. Yes, these our spiritual truths. But I also believe this spiritual truths are what everything else flows from. I don't believe a person can lose their "new creation status" because just as our good works didn't turn us from sinners to saints, I don't believe bad works turn us from saints to sinners. And the truth is where people do struggle with "bad works". These are called works of flesh. They are not works of Spirit. This is a situation of someone not living out of who they truly are in Christ.

What do you think IN CHRIST means? I will tell you after years of study on this topic. It's referring to the work done in the Spirit. It's referring to us being joined in Spirit. So when Paul says things like: I can do all things through Christ he's talking about the new creation reality we now enjoy. This is why he says the body is a "tent". I can give you continual references to this understanding. Paul also says he knows no one according to the flesh. Why? Because to Paul the new person in the Spirit is more real than the person in the flesh.

And so while people DO struggle it's because they don't truly understand who they are. But when people do understand who they are in Christ. Wow. Everything that people are taught to "do" suddenly begins to flow. They love, they live, they have joy, and they express Christ as His witnesses on Earth.

Telling people they can lose their salvation. Makes life about them. Hence, why we have so many self-centered believers because they focus on themselves instead of the Father. We can't even define what "good works" are, yet, we spend hours and hours debating it. And sadly those who debate we need them the most. From my experience are the ones who lack them the most.

C.
if your a new creation how do you lose salvation is your question.....


I have a question for you how can you lose something you havent recieved yet ?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Once again you misunderstand what we who hold to the works of Jesus are saying Meggido.

We brag on Him not on self. That does not mean that we passively sit and do nothing. We sit down with Him in the heavenlies in His victorious resurrected life, and do as He ordains for us. Those works He intended before creation began.
Now there are various degrees yet of understanding. Offense however, will not draw anyone to what one is preaching. An offended man is hard to win, true? Seems to me I read that somewhere.
Hi Stonesoffire, this is such a wonderful post that I hope its okay to add to the point you have already stated; "and do as He ordains for us. Those works He intended before creation began."

Who was the parable of the Talents directed to:
To new Jewish believer's; to Jesus disciples; and finally to you and I today.
What was the purpose of Jesus telling His audience this parable: “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property." Matt25:14.

It is late in Jesus ministry and He is preparing His disciples and followers to understand their responsibilities prior to His journey. In chapter twenty eight Jesus give's His final command to His disciple's; "Go and make disciples of all nations,"Matt28:16-20

Application: We are all servant's of Jesus's Christ today, and all of us participate in the great commission; He gave talents; "to each according to his ability."

"For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"Matt25:29,39

Is this passage saying that God will cast away one of His very own - may it never be; or why would He search for the one sheep that is lost. It is a stern warning from Jesus to participate in the Great Commission. This is not a warning that I can lose my salvation - we all have something to contribute. Thank you and God bless.