Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Personally I believe that preaching the grace of God in the gospel of Christ without the other transformation part that grace brings is not right and perhaps there are some that do that - but I have not seen it.

I have seen others "accuse" them of saying it because they only hear the first part of grace being put forth which is the acceptance grace but didn't stay for the other transformational part - which is the empowering grace that brings true transformation of the life of Christ being manifested in and through us.

Thus they attack the "acceptance" part of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and call it "easy believe-ism".

Self moral reformation is not a substitute for regeneration and behavioral modification is not a substitute for transformation.

Hard believe-ism = Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved by works/continuing to believe the gospel is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow us to be snatched out of his hand.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus says only a few find the way to life.

That's because only few will place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; Ephesians 2:8,9). Many trust in works (Matthew 7:22-23).

 

[UnderGrace]

A word of caution here....

People's manner of speech and writing vary, that is called their unique voice and style.

I have seen your "voice" change back and forth several times

However, to accuse hate is to judge far beyond the words on the page ....so be vary cautious here... because sometimes what we feel is what we project to another.

The Gospel Teaches us what works we are to do.. we are to be perfect and righteous... I believe it.

Paul in Gal 1-3 is teaching the New Testament in place of the Old Testament.

call those who believe the New Testament fools and bewitched.. but blame not Paul or misuse his writings... it is your emotions and conclusion..

You push your belief with much hate for those who have Believed the Messiah... and you have many who believe as you do... according to verses that you wrestle with.

The power of GOD makes me content to believe to the saving of my soul.

 

[Grace777x70]

Self moral reformation is not a substitute for regeneration and behavioral modification is not a substitute for transformation.

Hard believe-ism = Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved by works/continuing to believe the gospel is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow us to be snatched out of his hand.

I agree.

Unfortunately some like to use the term "easy believe-ism" or "greasy grace" or "hyper" to disparage the "acceptance " part of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work.

Make no mistake about it - the gospel is scandalous to our religiously taught minds.

The renewing of our minds to the realities of Christ and what He has already done is paramount to growing up in Him but we need to have the proper foundation down first - which is Christ Himself.

 

[Bogadile]

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is saying above. It teaches a person can live unchanged, however they desire, without evidence of conversion, practice sin and still go to heaven contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:9ff; Ephesians 5:5ff, and Galatians 5:19ff.

I have read all of those verses but have you noticed how common it is to be guilty of some of the sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21? Something like "fits of anger" would be something that comes to mind, of course this depends on how one defines it.
So what do we do, when a Christian does have "fits of anger" or something else mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 like envy? Is that person not saved to begin with? Or how do you see it? I know you believe in eternal security if you are reformed, but just asking how do you see this.

 

[joaniemarie]

I don't know about deserved. Am thinking that's a wrong word. But, I can tell you with all confidence that we aren't worthy, but He has made us worthy. Those were the exact words from Holy Spirit to me when I was being tormented in mind that I wasn't worthy.

YAAAYY and AMEN!!!

 

[joaniemarie]

Tried to catch up on this thread but oh my it's tooooooooooooooo long!! Have been reading for about an hour and still can't catch up. Can no longer stay and read but wanted to say what a terrific thread!! and so full of love and encouragement for each other. This sort of thread is one of the reasons I come to CC. The Holy Spirit surely does work through the lives of His people as they love one another and freely share what He is doing in our lives. Awesome!!

 

[preacher4truth]

I have read all of those verses but have you noticed how common it is to be guilty of some of the sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21? Something like "fits of anger" would be something that comes to mind, of course this depends on how one defines it.
So what do we do, when a Christian does have "fits of anger" or something else mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 like envy? Is that person not saved to begin with? Or how do you see it? I know you believe in eternal security if you are reformed, but just asking how do you see this.

Good questions that are somewhat troublesome to many in the Kingdom.

I think it a good thing for any believer to struggle over the meaning of this text, in conscience, as all believers do fail in sin. Our attitude toward personal sin changes at conversion, we are sensitive to our failings. We thus practice a lifestyle of repentance. The reason we practice such an lifestyle is because we still will fail and sin.

The key phrase is in the words "those who do such things."

Gill comments here, and I agree wholly:

and that they which do such things, shall not inherit the kingdom of God;...that is, that live in the commission of these things, whose whole lives are employed in such work, living and dying in such a state, without repentance towards God and faith in Christ, shall never enjoy eternal life and happiness; though such who have done these things, being brought to a sense of them, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ for pardon and justification, for life and salvation; such, notwithstanding the works of the flesh done by them, shall, through the free grace of God, and the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, inherit the kingdom and glory of God.

 

[PHart]

What you fail to understand is that salvation is a one time event...

No question about it. Salvation starts when you first believe and no one gets a second chance to believe if they fall away into unbelief.

...and nothing we do after the fact can embellish it or make it secure...

Correct. Salvation is already secure by virtue of the believing that started when we first believed. That's why we are exhorted to not to stop believing. Our believing that started on day 1 is how we have the power of God for the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5).

Continuing to believe is not an added embellishment to our salvation. It's the exact same believing that we started when we first got saved. This exact same believing that continues is no more a work of self righteousness than it was the day it started.

Now if anyone wants to argue that you can never stop believing, well, then good. But ultimately, that's a question that you and you alone are going to have to struggle with when and if you are ever tempted by doubts about the gospel being true. It is at that time that you must take to heart the warnings in scripture to keep believing and hold fast the word of truth in order to be saved. There is no salvation outside of believing. All the promises are for believers, not unbelievers and former believers. Eternal life is for believers, not unbelievers.

 

[joefizz]

Tried to catch up on this thread but oh my it's tooooooooooooooo long!! Have been reading for about an hour and still can't catch up. Can no longer stay and read but wanted to say what a terrific thread!! and so full of love and encouragement for each other. This sort of thread is one of the reasons I come to CC. The Holy Spirit surely does work through the lives of His people as they love one another and freely share what He is doing in our lives. Awesome!!

if you'd like to post in a less,quick thread post in...
"Salvation and how to "know" when you receive it"!
I'm sure you could add to the thread!

 

[UnderGrace]

I need to question this a bit ( in sisterly love of course) and I know it has been discussed somewhat.

Having worked in addictions, I have witnessed people become born again and then within a short time have some huge tragedy befall them like loosing their job, family and end up on the street.

We tried to provide resources however so often the streets swallowed them up and they became filled with despair and self-loathing an emotional spiral that was very difficult to break. It is easy to see things from our middle class perspective.

This happened quite often. They never had time to really grow in grace let alone understand it so they had no works.

There was no corresponding action beyond they knew that Jesus had taken all their sins and died for them in their heart, but the trials of life were too strong.

We see things from the lens of our own lives. Honestly this breaks my heart, when I think of so many young teens on the streets who have been so abused and barely welcomed in any church, they have no access to the many things we have that help us grow in the faith.

So then are they not saved they had no works?

True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.

Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.

 

[Bogadile]

Good questions that are somewhat troublesome to many in the Kingdom.

I think it a good thing for any believer to struggle over the meaning of this text, in conscience, as all believers do fail in sin. Our attitude toward personal sin changes at conversion, we are sensitive to our failings. We thus practice a lifestyle of repentance. The reason we practice such an lifestyle is because we still will fail and sin.

The key phrase is in the words "those who do such things."

Gill comments here, and I agree wholly:

and that they which do such things, shall not inherit the kingdom of God;...that is, that live in the commission of these things, whose whole lives are employed in such work, living and dying in such a state, without repentance towards God and faith in Christ, shall never enjoy eternal life and happiness; though such who have done these things, being brought to a sense of them, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ for pardon and justification, for life and salvation; such, notwithstanding the works of the flesh done by them, shall, through the free grace of God, and the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, inherit the kingdom and glory of God.

So the difference between a Christian failing and an unbeliever doing them is that the unbeliever does not have a repentant heart.
I also got the impression from some translations that it says those who "practice" such things, meaning they continually live in them.

Thanks. I see what you mean and I agree.

 

[Stephen63]

Do you have something to add of value?

I think you could be a little more caring & loving, eh?

 

[PHart]

Hard believe-ism = Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved by...continuing to believe the gospel is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow us to be snatched out of his hand.

That's why we rely on the author and perfecter of our faith to continue to believe so that we can be saved on the Day of Salvation.

In the same way that we rely on God to empower us to slay the deeds of the flesh, we also rely on His power to sustain our faith in the gospel itself when doubts creep in. If we don't do that, that is when we are in danger of falling away into unbelief and being lost on the Day of Salvation because we did not endure to the very end.

 

[preacher4truth]

So the difference between a Christian failing and an unbeliever doing them is that the unbeliever does not have a repentant heart.
I also got the impression from some translations that it says those who "practice" such things, meaning they continually live in them.

Thanks. I see what you mean and I agree.

You're welcome bro.

Yes, I believe it does come down to the practice, a portrait of the persons life. Therefore, there will be both evidence of conversion, and evidence to the contrary, though above our pay grade to make judgment on any. Some appear to slip away only to return fully, showing conversion, ongoing sanctification, the graces of God at work and repentance. Others seem to appear converted and then go on into sin unrepentant.

 

[Stephen63]

Sure. Do some earnest, self reflection on why my comment regarding general observations to someone else, which had nothing to do with you at all, garnered such a defensive spirit in you. Additionally, whether or not you're capable of seeing the value in any given post isn't something other users can be held responsible for. It lies in a person's ability to have an open mind, their education, being resourceful and taking away what they can from it to benefit their walk with Christ. Cheers.

***You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to laura_charlotte again.***

 

[stonesoffire]

Sure. Do some earnest, self reflection on why my comment regarding general observations to someone else, which had nothing to do with you at all, garnered such a defensive spirit in you. Additionally, whether or not you're capable of seeing the value in any given post isn't something other users can be held responsible for. It lies in a person's ability to have an open mind, their education, being resourceful and taking away what they can from it to benefit their walk with Christ. Cheers.

It's his thread Laura...and he has been much critized for it. He sticks to the foundation of faith alone without works for salvation to enter the gates of heaven. It's truth. And he does not swerve. When one is critized over and over, one tends to get defensive.

and I wish I could remember how to spell critized..critizied...nope.

 

[PHart]

I also got the impression from some translations that it says those who "practice" such things, meaning they continually live in them.

I don't think the word 'practice' is in the original. I think it was added for the obvious reason of interpretation (as opposed to simple translation). We all know and agree that John was not suggesting only sinless, perfect people are born again. He just got done saying in the previous chapter, "when you sin" (or something like that). So we know he was not advocating sinless perfection.

The bottom line is, the believer is characterized by righteous living. The inside of the born again person's cup is clean, so the outside of the cup is characteristically clean too. Not so with the unrighteous. They can only fool themselves into thinking the outside of their cup is clean. Everybody else can see the greed, and lust, and pride that permeates their behavior from the inside out.

Self righteousness is a misnomer. There is no such thing as fake righteous people (that is impossible to do). Ultimately, only the person who is being self righteous thinks he is being successful at that.

 

[Stephen63]

Nothing to do with your rejection or ignorance. I joined in with an insightful observation that another member posted and I shared my own perspective of the matter. As a result of your own unresolved issues, you've become extremely defensive of what I've said which wasn't about you nor to you. Your denial hasn't changed a thing, get some help in the future, it'll do you good. Blessings.

Yeah..... what she said.

 

[UnderGrace]

I can help. ..... criticized

If you right mouse click on the word you will get the dictionary.

I also agree ...it is truth and it is the foundation and he does stick to it.

It's his thread Laura...and he has been much critized for it. He sticks to the foundation of faith alone without works for salvation to enter the gates of heaven. It's truth. And he does not swerve. When one is critized over and over, one tends to get defensive.

and I wish I could remember how to spell critized..critizied...nope.