Not By Works

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Ralph-

Guest
Not only that, but you are rejecting what Scripture plainly states, which is contrary to what you said, but you will probably not acknowledge that either.
Don't take it out on me. If you are pricked in conscience by the fact that ultimately saved people live righteous lives and don't remain in their old ways then you need to take it up with God, not change doctrine to salve your conscience.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
I realize you are convinced you are right even though Scripture proves you wrong.
And I'm guessing you are convinced that you can continue to live in your old life and you saved, right?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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No you don't. You should prove your good works, like you just finished saying we should, by apologizing to me, but you would rather pretend you are right and I am wrong.

Ralph,
I think she has a point.

If you aren't saved unless you can prove your good works, then I think you may not be saved.

If you can't prove your good works by apologizing to Magenta, then I think that's proof you're not saved.


And if YOU aren't saved, why should we be listening to you tell us about being saved?
 
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Ralph-

Guest
I was going make a serious post on this topic,
but since this thread is already over 2,000 pages,
I can't imagine anything which hasn't already been said at least 50 times...

and ignored every time, lol.
Nobody's reading what's been posted. You have to keep it fresh for new people reading.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Ralph,
I think she has a point.

If you aren't saved unless you can prove your good works, then I think you may not be saved.

If you can't prove your good works by apologizing to Magenta, then I think that's proof you're not saved.


And YOU aren't saved, why should we be listening to you tell us about being saved?
She can't understand my posts. It's futile to explain anything to her. This isn't a matter of me needing to apologize to her. If she understood what I'm saying she'd know there is no offense here.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,906
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Don't take it out on me. If you are pricked in conscience by the fact that ultimately saved people live righteous lives and don't remain in their old ways then you need to take it up with God, not change doctrine to salve your conscience.
LOL. You don't even know what you are talking about. You claimed something that is patently false and I gave a Scripture to prove it, but you want to pretend it is I who does not understand, and so you go off on all these tangents and refuse to admit you were wrong or that I did indeed certainly understand what you said. You just can't admit you were wrong, nor do you practice what you preach.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
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She can't understand my posts. It's futile to explain anything to her. This isn't a matter of me needing to apologize to her. If she understood what I'm saying she'd know there is no offense here.

Ralph,

I think if your sister feels offended then you need to do the GOOD WORK of apologizing.

I think if you can't do your good work, then you have no proof you're saved.

I'm starting to think you're not saved because you can't do your good work tonight.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
When a person says they are created in Christ Jesus unto good works but then they don't have those works how can they insist they have been created in Christ Jesus? The person who says they have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works but who doesn't have those good works may well not be created in Christ Jesus at all.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
LOL. You don't even know what you are talking about. You claimed something that is patently false and I gave a Scripture to prove it, but you want to pretend it is I who does not understand, and so you go off on all these tangents and refuse to admit you were wrong or that I did indeed certainly understand what you said. You just can't admit you were wrong, nor do you practice what you preach.
There is no offense here. I'm not wrong that the position you are defending is what many Christians defend. Your thinking is not unique.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,906
29,288
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Ralph,

I think if your sister feels offended then you need to do the GOOD WORK of apologizing.

I think if you can't do your good work, then you have no proof you're saved.

I'm starting to think you're not saved because you can't do your good work tonight.
Thank you, and exactly. Ralph was wrong to say salvation and works cannot be separated, and I gave a Scripture to prove it. Rather than admit he is wrong he pretends to know my thinking to cover for the fact that he rejects what Scripture explicitly says. He makes up all kinds of crap to cover his error, goes off on all these tangents rather than deal with the issue at hand, and tries to stick it on me. LOL. What a joke.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,906
29,288
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There is no offense here. I'm not wrong that the position you are defending is what many Christians defend. Your thinking is not unique.
You are clueless as to the position I am defending, which is what Scripture explicitly states and you reject. You are obviously too thick to comprehend simple truths.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
I am becoming nicer. That may sound insignificant but for a very long time I was a very mean person.

Works are great but for me the real "proof" of my salvation is God working on my heart. He changed and continues to change me. I pray and speak to Him often and when moved I pray with others or help out strangers but it is more by just being in a good mood and practicing patience that I reflect the love He has shown me.
That's the works we're talking about. What were you thinking works meant? Faith in Christ changes us. If we're still stuck in our old hateful, hurtful, unrighteous, defensive, contentious ways then we have to test to see if we're really in the faith at all.

These kinds of life changes must occur in the believer. Because that's what justification through the forgiveness of sin produces in a person. If that's not happening we have to do as Paul said and test ourselves to see if we're really in the faith. We have to make our calling and election sure to ourselves as the Bible says. We do that by acting out our faith by obeying God's commands. If we can't act out the faith you say you have then you may not have the faith you say you do.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Thank you, and exactly. Ralph was wrong to say salvation and works cannot be separated, and I gave a Scripture to prove it. Rather than admit he is wrong he pretends to know my thinking to cover for the fact that he rejects what Scripture explicitly says. He makes up all kinds of crap to cover his error, goes off on all these tangents rather than deal with the issue at hand, and tries to stick it on me. LOL. What a joke.
Just show us the scripture that says the unchanged person is a saved person. Do you know the Bible says the unchanged person is not saved? That is how salvation and works can not be separated.
 

Pipp

Majestic Llamacorn
Sep 17, 2013
5,542
2,720
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Georgia
I was going make a serious post on this topic,
but since this thread is already over 2,000 pages,
I can't imagine anything which hasn't already been said at least 50 times...

and ignored every time, lol.
Didn't stop me :p
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,906
29,288
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Just show us the scripture that says the unchanged person is a saved person. Do you know the Bible says the unchanged person is not saved? That is how salvation and works can not be separated.
I gave a Scripture that proved you wrong. All these red herrings about providing non existent Scriptures do nothing for me; your pompous sermonizing is unwarranted. They were not part of the conversation I was having, but simply your smoke screens and irrelevant tangents to the point at hand. You pretend to know my thinking when you have proved you do not. What you have proved is that you are a hypocrite, and willing to make up fairy tales about Jesus rather than deal with a simple issue.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
I gave a Scripture that proved you wrong. All these red herrings about providing non existent Scriptures do nothing for me; your pompous sermonizing is unwarranted. They were not part of the conversation I was having, but simply your smoke screens and irrelevant tangents to the point at hand. You pretend to know my thinking when you have proved you do not. What you have proved is that you are a hypocrite, and willing to make up fairy tales about Jesus rather than deal with a simple issue.
If what you post is not what you are thinking then we are at an impasse here.

Help us all know what you are thinking and show us in the Bible that the person who is still living their old life can be a saved person, if that's what you're thinking. Then I will show you where it says the person living in their old life is not saved.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,906
29,288
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If what you post is not what you are thinking then we are at an impasse here.

Help us all know what you are thinking and show us in the Bible that the person who is still living their old life can be a saved person. Then I will show you where it says the person living in their old life is not saved.
I already gave the Scripture that proves what you said wrong. Salvation and works are separate, and can be separated. You said they could not be. Why don't you deal with that instead of pretending I am not posting what I think? Your insinuations show very poor character, as does your refusal to admit you are wrong on many points now.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
I already gave the Scripture that proves what you said wrong. Salvation and works are separate, and can be separated. You said they could not be.
Salvation and works of righteousness are inseparable--1 John 3:10, Romans 8:9.

You show us where it says the person without works is saved. That will prove that salvation and works can be separated as you say.

Justification is where works are not necessary. But the salvation that results from justification must cause a person to grow up into righteous living or they don't have the justification they claim to have. That is how salvation and works are inseparable. Even the Ephesians 2 passage you posted says the person created in Christ Jesus is created in Him to good works. How can the person who can't and doesn't do those good works say he is created in Christ Jesus? He can't. You can't separate being created in Christ Jesus to good works from those good works. John and Paul say the person who does that is not saved.