Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

I am a Jesusist, or a christianist. Do those fit??

Another movement... I see it on the horizon... when the moon is in the 8th house, the Jesusists rise with a roar to arouse, all the fake ists who clamor, and bite at our heels, will suddenly know just how hot hell will feel.

Hey, I tried!

 

[stonesoffire]

[video=youtube;DiRIYPmvlqw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiRIYPmvlqw[/video]

Well I sympathize completely but there's nothing I can do
I am just a humble servant with a message here for you
Well I know you have good reasons and there's things you've got to do
But the boatman won't be waiting and he's leaving here with you

And you can't take it with you
No matter what you do
No you can't take it with you
Not the place you're going to
(One more mile, one more road, one last bridge, one less load)

Well I sympathize completely but there's nothing I can do
I am just obeying orders, I'm a simple soul like you
Well you really are persuasive, but I've heard it all before
And the boatman's getting restless as he stands upon the shore

And you can't take it with you
No matter what you do
No you can't take it with you
Not the place you're going to
Can't take it with you

You amaze me Magenta. Where do you find all these.

 

[Magenta]

Anything that requires effort is work.

What is your point? Faith takes work? Therefore, faith is a work?

Please clarify instead of deflecting.

 

[Magenta]

You amaze me Magenta. Where do you find all these.

As soon as you said that about me taking it with me, I thought of that song
Alan Parsons was pretty big in the music industry of my youth
That album was one of my faves
He was also involved in the production of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon
Plus a couple of Beatles albums, and Al Stewart also. Loved Al and Floyd

[video=youtube;N_ZG6tRGMYk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ZG6tRGMYk[/video][SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[Shamah]

Hmm... If your hand causes you to sin, if your eye causes you to sin, if your tongue causes you to sin, etc... You're supposed to cut them off. Have YOU followed those commands of Jesus? Why not!? Don't you love Him?
And remember, merely THINKING about lusting, or anger at your brother, or you name it IS SIN.

No. Unless YOUR righteousness EXCEEDS that of the Pharisees, who sincerely tried their darndest to follow the Law, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


THAT was the point of Matthew 5. Jesus lays out the type of heart that can receive Him with the beautitudes, then juxtaposed it with the heart that CAN'T accept Him because it is not humble, and believes THEIR works and obedience to the Law will save them.

It would be better to enter the kingom with only one eye than to burn in the fire.

and all obredience is not "believeinbg in ones own works"

that is the battle cry of the antinomians.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[Shamah]

Not even the Jews, to whom the Law was given, could keep the commandments (Romans 9:31)

Then we should give up and not seek to o anything He says?

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

also they made their own standard, they would not submit to His stanard:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

As soon as you said that about me taking it with me, I thought of that song
Alan Parsons was pretty big in the music industry of my youth
That album was one of my faves
He was also involved in the production of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon
Plus a couple of Beatles albums, and Al Stewart also. Loved Al and Floyd

[video=youtube;N_ZG6tRGMYk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ZG6tRGMYk[/video][SUB][/SUB]

I never even heard of him. The Beatles was in my time, but was diapering babies when you came into your teeny bopper years.

I was born again in my mid twenties and my music was Janny Grein, Bob Dylan(Christian era), Ted Sandquist, and you would of loved Honeytree. I still go back to her on YouTube.

Loved your song by the way.

 

[stonesoffire]

Then we should give up and not seek to o anything He says?

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

also they made their own standard, they would not submit to His stanard:

2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of יהוה their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”


Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Hiz

I believe He wants us to seek Him. Not what shall I do.

 

[Shamah]

Hiz

I believe He wants us to seek Him. Not what shall I do.

With all due respect, I say this in sinceirty, I think we should talke everything He said into accounbt, and concering our actions we should look at if He said to obey Him or not.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

Then you are living in sin. (By your logic)



I sin every day, Ralph.

As so do you.

But you are under the impression that God grades everyone's progress on some grand sliding scale. That if I sin 10 times a day, and you sin 5 times a day, that makes you more righteous, or proves you're a believer and I'm not.

One sin, or a thousand, it makes no difference if any are attributed to us.

Should a believer go out and live like the devil?

Of course not.

But no matter our sins, we are not held accountable. They are gone, never to be remembered again, as far as the east is from the west. Your "progress scale" is absolutely meaningless in the eyes of God, because we have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We will never be condemned for even our future sins, for to condemn us is to condemn Jesus.

We are, and will remain, as sinless as Jesus is.

I'll take that as a yes. Galatians 5:21 does describe you. That means you're not going to inherit the kingdom. That's what it says.

Born again people sin but they don't 'live in' sin. If you want to argue that there is no difference between the believer and the unbeliever when it comes to sin, except that you're saved and they're not, then you believe that grace is a license to sin.

You made the distinction in sin in your comment about 'living like the devil'. But you insist there is no difference between the sin of the unbeliever and the believer. Galatians 5:21 is living like the devil. If you're doing that, you are not saved. You will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

That is why Martin Luther wanted to kick the book of James out of the Bible. HE THOUGHT JAMES WAS ADVOCATING YOU WERE SAVED BY FAITH, PLUS WORKS. He did not realize that JAMES believed that you are saved by Grace through faith the very moment you believe, and the evidence that IT REALLY HAPPENED is in your obedience, and the HOLY SPIRIT IS STILL AT WORK IN YOUR HEART, is your LOVE FOR GOD as it manifests itself in your Christian Lifestyle.

The problem is when people think that faith that is alone will save them at the return of Jesus. If they really have the faith that justifies apart from works they won't have a faith that is alone when Jesus comes back.

It's important that we know which end of the argument someone is arguing when they say 'faith alone'. Faith alone means a confession of faith that does not produce works. Faith apart from works means you are justified apart from the merit of works. To be saved when Jesus comes back you can not have faith 'alone'-James 2:24. It has to have works attached or it isn't the faith that saves 'apart from works'-Romans 4:6.

 

[Ariel82]

The question is what and who you have faith in.

Faith alone does save. The Bible is quite clear.

The work we will have to show is not our own but God's work in our lives.

Unless people understand what that means then they have not reach maturity in faith but still strive for justification through works of their own hands.

 

[Ariel82]

Anything that requires effort is work.

What do you define as effort?

Let's take breathing for example.

Some days it comes naturally and without effort or thought. Yet when I am sick every breath is a chore.

Would breathing be considered work?

For me doing what God tells me is like breathing.,,sometomes it comes easy and nature. Sometimes it's hard and takes a toil.

I don't consider either "work" just a part of being a child of God and moving acording to the leading of the Holy spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

"believeth" what? Which gospel?

The "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 13:24-30, “Another parable He put before them, saying, “The reign of the heavens has become like a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) among the wheat and went away. And when the blade sprouted and bore fruit, then the darnel (tares) also appeared. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where then does it have the darnel (tares)?’ And he said to them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ And the servants said to him, ‘Do you wish then, that we go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the darnel (tares) you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I shall say to the reapers, “First gather the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]speak to one another, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."[/FONT]

 

[mailmandan]

I would not be so quick to label Shamah's views as wrong.

Of course you wouldn't because you also teach salvation by works through your 5 step plan of salvation.

Your take on what is faith and how that faith must be accepted can easily be seen as works also.

Oh really? Why don't you explain how my view on "salvation through faith, not works" can easily be seen as works also.

 

[Shamah]

Can one disobey Yahshua the Messiah/Jesus the Christ and have eternal life?

 

[mailmandan]

The only text that talks about "faith only" denies that it is by faith only:
James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yet James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." So faith in "faith only" here is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. This is what works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp. *Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Now I am in complete agreement that James is not saying it is faith plus works, but he does say it is not "faith only".

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Paul in Ephesians 2 says we are saved "by grace through faith": so we can surely add grace into the equation of what brings salvation.

Yet grace is God's part and faith is our part. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

I am just arguing that to say "salvation is by faith alone" is at the best inadequate and incomplete; and we might even say that it is Biblically incorrect. I would rather hear someone say simply that we are saved by faith than to say that we are saved by faith alone.

To be specific, we are saved through faith IN CHRIST ALONE (by trusting in Christ alone for salvation and not in works). Saved through faith, not works. Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

My quibble is with the word alone, not with the faith.

We are either saved through faith in Christ alone or through faith in Christ + works. I believe that we are saved through faith in Christ alone. Authentic faith in Christ is not a dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" because it's a living faith, but nonetheless, we are saved through faith, not works.

 

[TMS]

Some one please describe sanctification.
Everyone seems to agree about justification. But some are going into sanctification and others are not and arguing about faith and works.

 

[mailmandan]

Can one disobey Yahshua the Messiah/Jesus the Christ and have eternal life?

Only genuine believers obey Jesus Christ. Can one refuse to do the will of the Father by beholding the Son and believing in Him to receive eternal life? John 6:40 - For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Sadly, many people will find out the hard way one day that their "alleged" obedience will not save them (Matthew 7:21-23).