Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

Depends on what YOUR definition of "freedom" is.

If by freedom you mean if a Christian DID commit murder would they still be saved. I believe the answer is yes. Just like if a Christian committed a lie, or gossip, or YOU name it, they would still be saved. Because we are saved by the blood of Christ, NOT by following Christ.

Now, it's silly to think a Christian, or anybody else, would be "free" to murder someone. First off, the Holy Spirit is working in us to conform us to Christ's likeness. So as we follow closer and closer the desire to commit such acts dissipates.
Secondly, there are ALWAYS consequences to our sin, and murder would be no exception.

Your question in and of itself seems to me to come from a carnal mind.

Well said brother. When we walk by the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. God is not holding any sins against us because of Christ.

However there are earthy consequences to walking after the flesh. Take up shooting heroin to try to find life and we will die very quickly. Or murder someone in Texas and they will "kill you back".

Why not preach and teach the love and grace of the gospel of Christ so that believers will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Christ? If we preach the "law" then that only incites sin to manifest. Preach Christ and Him crucified and us crucified with Him and we will find true life.

Taking up our cross and following Jesus has been done when we believed the message of Him. Now we need the renewing of the mind to work out in us what already is in our new creation in Christ - the new man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[Ariel82]

Matthew 5
21“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

*****

To call someone a "fool" is to tell them they don't know God and don't have the Holy Spirit within them. Its a serious accusation, but too many on CC make it daily and have yet to show any signs of remorse.


If you call someone "lost", are they lost sheep or have you already judged them in your hearts as goats and your enemy?

 

[Chris1975]

[h=1]Matthew 7:24-27New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Build on the Rock[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 

[FranC]

- Jesus gave us two new commandments (I will summary paraphrase : Love God ; Love your Neighbour).
- Murder is neither loving your neighbour, nor Loving God

Now - did Jesus nail the commandments he gave (Love God, Love your neighbour) to the cross. Was it dispensed with? Or not? Under the new covenant?

Interesting conversation
The MORAL LAW was NOT dispensed with.

We have a DIFFERENT way of following it.

BY GRACE AND FAITH.
Not by being slaves to the Law.
There is a subtle difference (not so subtle) that is very important to understand.
Later...

 

[Ariel82]

Your comment above in Red above. Care to explain that a bit more?

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Ariel82]

Interesting conversation
The MORAL LAW was NOT dispensed with.

We have a DIFFERENT way of following it.

BY GRACE AND FAITH.
Not by being slaves to the Law.
There is a subtle difference (not so subtle) that is very important to understand.
Later...

Yeah I disagree again. Jesus nailed the Law, both moral and ceremonial to the cross. BECAUSE WE WOULD BE HELD GUILTY by the Law if people truly understood what the law requires of us.

The question to me is do you focus on following the Law or following Jesus?

If you follow Jesus He will guide you and keep you from breaking any major laws, though you may still be found guilty of some smaller ones like murdering your brother in your heart.

If you focus on keeping the law, you walk in fear and don't know where to step.

 

[Grace777x70]

- Jesus gave us two new commandments (I will summary paraphrase : Love God ; Love your Neighbour).
- Murder is neither loving your neighbour, nor Loving God

Now - did Jesus nail the commandments he gave (Love God, Love your neighbour) to the cross. Was it dispensed with? Or not? Under the new covenant?

Jesus did not give us those 2 new commandments. We have been taught that by some of our church teachings and thus we when we quote that portion of scripture - we leave out the context.

He said that they were the greatest commandments in the Law of Moses when He was asked the question by the religious scribes. Reading scripture in context helps to see what is really being said.

Matthew 22:36-39 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[SUP]37 [/SUP] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] This is the first and great commandment.

[SUP]39 [/SUP] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If we could follow those 2 commandments then we wouldn't need Jesus to come and die for us.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and thus we now believe that He has loved the Lord His God with all His heart....and He has loved His neighbor as Himself."

Therefore because Christ is in us joined as one spirit for eternity - we have His life and love in us now and thus the fruit of His life manifests in loving God and others.

We love because He first loved us. Get this backwards and we create a religion of trying to save ourselves by what we do or don't do. This nullifies the grace of God in Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

 

[Chris1975]

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

These are works. We are talking about upholding the moral law or not. Murder does not fit into the category of wood, hay or stubble.

 

[Chris1975]

Yeah I disagree again. Jesus nailed the Law, both moral and ceremonial to the cross. BECAUSE WE WOULD BE HELD GUILTY by the Law if people truly understood what the law requires of us.

The question to me is do you focus on following the Law or following Jesus?

The moral law is summed up in the two commandments Jesus gave us. Love God, Love your Neighbour.
We are not JUSTIFIED by upholding the Law. We are Justified by FAITH in Jesus Christ. Now that that is settled - we look to scripture to understand the following: Romans 3v31 [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[Chris1975]

Jesus did not give us those 2 new commandments. We have been taught that by some of our church teachings and thus we when we quote that portion of scripture - we leave out the context.

He said that they were the greatest commandments in the Law of Moses when He was asked the question by the religious scribes. Reading scripture in context helps to see what is really being said.

Matthew 22:36-39 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[SUP]37 [/SUP] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] This is the first and great commandment.

[SUP]39 [/SUP] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If we could follow those 2 commandments then we wouldn't need Jesus to come and die for us.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and thus we now believe that He has loved the Lord His God with all His heart....and He has loved His neighbor as Himself."

Therefore because Christ is in us joined as one spirit for eternity - we have His life and love in us now and thus the fruit of His life manifests in loving God and others.

We love because He first loved us. Get this backwards and we create a religion of trying to save ourselves by what we do or don't do. This nullifies the grace of God in Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

See my post in #5309. We are actually saying the same thing.

 

[Ariel82]

These are works. We are talking about upholding the moral law or not. Murder does not fit into the category of wood, hay or stubble.

Murder is more than the physical act.

Anger must be judge as either justified or not. Both justified and unjustified anger must be given to God daily before sunset or you allow Satan a foothold into your mind and heart.

From that foothold, Satan builds a stronghold of anger and bitterness. He whispers lies to you about the other person and destroys your love for them, until out of your bitter heart you insult them....Jesus then says you are in need of counsel. If you don't listen to counsel, you continue and call them a "fool" which is someone who doesn't know God.

This crime is like what the Pharisees did when they told Jesus He healed because of power Satan and not God.

*****

If people want to teach the Law, then teach as Jesus did.

 

[Ariel82]

These are works. We are talking about upholding the moral law or not. Murder does not fit into the category of wood, hay or stubble.

Upholding the moral laws are works of gold.

 

[Ariel82]

See my post in #5309. We are actually saying the same thing.

Yeah, I agree. You guys are teaching the same doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 7:24-27New King James Version (NKJV)

Build on the Rock

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. *See 1 Corinthians 3:11. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

 

[Ariel82]

[h=1]Matthew 7:24-27New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Build on the Rock[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Look Jesus is talking about building..,,,wanna tell him that's just works and not about keeping the law..,,or just about the law and not works?

 

[PennEd]

Your comment above in Red above. Care to explain that a bit more?

Sure. If we could gain eternal life by following Jesus, rather than relying on His blood, or perfect sacrificial death, then why did He have to die?

Welcome to CC btw.

 

[Chris1975]

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. *See 1 Corinthians 3:11. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Whoever hears these sayings of mine and DOES them. You are changing scripture to say believes. If Christ in this sermon on the mount wanted to use the word 'believes', He would have done so.

 

[Ariel82]

Sure. If we could gain eternal life by following Jesus, rather than relying on His blood, or perfect sacrificial death, then why did He have to die?

Welcome to CC btw.

Probably gonna say folks in the OT didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit...

The old covenant never promised eternal life.

A fact most people miss.

The people under the old covenant are said to be children of Hagar and the Earthly Jerusalem. They don't get to inherit eternal life. They have the ministry of condemnation given to Moses on the stone tablets.

The new covenant of grace, established by Jesus allows us to become adopted children of God with His Holy Spirit it individually guide us and collectively mold us into His Body and Bride. Our mother is Heavenly Jerusalem. The Law showed us our need for a savior, not just once but constantly shows how we don't mesure up and need Jesus to wash us clean and show us His ways and teach us His wisdom.

Old Covenant people asked for laws so they didn't have to hear directly from God.

New covenant people are God's priests and prophets with His Holy Spirit in their hearts guiding and teaching them to,be His Ambassodors so that they can speak His life giving words to the world.

 

[Chris1975]

Sure. If we could gain eternal life by following Jesus, rather than relying on His blood, or perfect sacrificial death, then why did He have to die?

Welcome to CC btw.

You cannot have eternal life without following Jesus. I can assure you that.

Thank for the welcome. Yeah been on here just a few days.

 

[Grace777x70]

See my post in #5309. We are actually saying the same thing.

Not really because you said this below: ( which is not true ) Jesus did not give us Christians these 2 new commandments to follow.

Originally Posted by Chris1975

- Jesus gave us two new commandments (I will summary paraphrase : Love God ; Love your Neighbour).
- Murder is neither loving your neighbour, nor Loving God