Not By Works

[garee]

Um, no, you're thoroughly confused and are twisting the meaning. Either this is out of you being confused or it is purposeful.

Its purposeful.no confusion on my part.

The meaning speaks for itself no need to twist it.

Its what it reads.

Even you underlined the subject (without understanding)

If a person does not understand what they are teaching how could others understand what God is saying?

If we desire to be teachers of the law we must understand the law.

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,desiring to be teachers of the law, "without understanding" either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Its the perfect law of God as that which alone can quicken our soul giving us simply one His understanding. No law no gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

Paul nailed you and your response is to simply assert lies and implied falsities upon others?

You have no clue about the law you assert or try to affirm. In the text given, it shows you to be a false teacher, and that you are.

But back to your above response, you're bearing false witness upon another person. IOW you're lying. John 3:7.

The above is very arrogant. There is no sense of you could be sincerely following the Lord
truth and ones heart. Blasphemy is simple, because we are so self assured the enemy are
just deceived liars, who understand nothing.

Until one humbles oneself and sees through their eyes, they could be right, or even partially.

I have learnt so many things claimed, yet so close to spiritual reality. One must be careful
to know an apostate can be right in almost everything and miss it all.

Religion with no love or sorrow is nothing. Faith with no justice or integrity is nothing,
Respect where people are defines them, but also confirms how the word speaks to their
hearts.

cc hurts, interactions are difficult, but the light must shine. Make no mistake this is the
Kingdom, and His word working in His people.

 

[PeterJens]

He states that he came to fulfill. He didn't say partially fulfill, or a little fulfill. But fulfill.....ergo, it is ALL fulfilled.

Morality never goes away. Jesus came to empower our hearts so that the law is the outflow
of who we are not because it is something we learnt, but we have become children of God by
rebirth. Love is the fulfillment of the law. The two greatest commandments are LOVE
Everything flows from this.

The apostles stamped it out. We know we know God because we love. We know we have
met the king because we obey His commands.

Paul could not obtain righteousness through the law because it did not change him it just
showed his failure. In knowing Christ, he became a child of God, it flowed from him.

3 years, Jews to apostles, walking in holiness. Until they were filled with the Holy Spirit
they could not appreciate the words of Christ. A lot of authority and teaching was actually
only given in the last few days on earth. The size of this teaching is not great, but its meaning
is very profound.

Many of us in faith are very close. The test of love is will you see your brother or blaspheme him
not seeing this is a test of who you are and not them at all.

So much of life is a test of how you react when everything is one way, but the Lord has made it
another way. WOF are right a gift of faith makes you see Gods will , but not in everything we
desire, that is idolatry.

 

[Ariel82]

Its purposeful.no confusion on my part.

The meaning speaks for itself no need to twist it.

Its what it reads.

Even you underlined the subject (without understanding)

If a person does not understand what they are teaching how could others understand what God is saying?

If we desire to be teachers of the law we must understand the law.

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,desiring to be teachers of the law, "without understanding" either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Its the perfect law of God as that which alone can quicken our soul giving us simply one His understanding. No law no gospel.

So what you and maybe Peter are saying is that you both seek to be teachers of the law and the only law Jesus nailed to the cross was the oral traditions of the Pharisees?

If so. I disagree.

JESUS ,nailed the LAW embodied by the TEN commandments and ALL the old covenant to the cross.

The verses below clearly show it:

2 Corinthians 3

7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.


******

Moses teachings are called the "ministry of condemnation" and the only laws written on stone are the TEN commandments.

 

[Chris1975]

So what you and maybe Peter are saying is that you both seek to be teachers of the law and the only law Jesus nailed to the cross was the oral traditions of the Pharisees?

If so. I disagree.

JESUS ,nailed the LAW embodied by the TEN commandments and ALL the old covenant to the cross.

The verses below clearly show it:

2 Corinthians 3

7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.


******

Moses teachings are called the "ministry of condemnation" and the only laws written on stone are the TEN commandments.

Let's simplify. Let your conscience answer this question.

Under the new covenant are you free to murder?

 

[Ariel82]

Well at least God must have taught you something last night, Peter.

"The test of love is will you see your brother or blaspheme him
not seeing this is a test of who you are and not them at all."

***

You will probably say I am nitpicking on you again, but maybe you will see it's out of love to understand what you mean clearly.

I could tell others what you mean, but they (like you) will think I am being naive and that you mean what they believe you have said in the past and they misunderstood or that you might have changed what you believe.

Anyway, it's a new day and I know God teaches me every day New depths to His truth.


So clarify the following statements:

"There is no sense of you could be sincerely following the Lord
truth and ones heart."

1. Are you saying he is lost and doesn't have Jesus or are you trying to exhort him to not do quickly judge another?

If it's the later p4t has stated he doesn't judge folks salvation, just false teachings.

The current one you appear to hold is that you believe folks must have good works to maintain your salvation, which we can discuss later if you do believe this.

I do agree that we should be more like God and meet people where they are, but God gave us all different spiritual gifts. You can't expect that type of love from everyone.

"WOF are right a gift of faith makes you see Gods will , but not in everything we
desire, that is idolatry."

2. Where do you get the false notion that WOF teaches God's will? It teaches that you can command God to give you what you want like a magic genie. WOF is a false gospel, WITH FALSE DOCTRINES like "name it and claim it"

It doesn't teach its followers to seek God's will but that it's God's will that they be make lots of money (which they should donate "in faith" to their preachers) and if they don't get what they wan it's because they lack "faith" in what they are proclaiming with their mouth.

So to say that the "word of faith" movement is right, lacks serious discernment.

****

Most people would tell me to just ignore you Peter, but it's not how God has taught me to treat other people.

 

[Ariel82]

Let's simplify. Let your conscience answer this question.

Under the new covenant are you free to murder?

Let's simplify.

Did God ever command people to kill others under the Old Covenant?

 

[Chris1975]

Let's simplify.

Did God ever command people to kill others under the Old Covenant?

Please answer the question

 

[Ariel82]

Please answer the question

After you answer mine.

I asked if you believed the only laws nailed to the cross were oral traditions...no Answer.

 

[Chris1975]

After you answer mine.

Because of your doctrine, you cannot answer mine.

 

[Ariel82]

Because of your doctrine, you cannot answer mine.

Actually I can, I just wanted to see if you are honest or playing games.

 

[Chris1975]

Actually I can, I just wanted to see if you are honest or playing games.

No need to play games. The question to you stands. Under the new covenant, are you free to murder?

 

[Chris1975]

No need to play games. The question to you stands. Under the new covenant, are you free to murder?

Let's simplify even further:

Under the new covenant are your free to:
a) Break the Law
b) Uphold the Law
c) Ignore the Law.

And if your answer to the above is (c) Ignore the law ---- then are you free to Murder under the new covenant?

 

[Ariel82]

It is easy to see that God told people to kill in the Old Covenant and that GOD Makes a distinction between murder and killing someone.

JESUS defines murder to be MORE than the physical act of killing someone's body.

Under the LAW to look at someone with unjustified anger is to murder them in your hearts.

Many here would stand condemned according to this understanding of the law.

A true understanding of the law, reveals our true brokenness and a desperate need for a savior.

So can you murder under the new covenant?

Yes, you do it ever day.

Will you be chastens by God for your sins?

Yes, out of love God will teach you His ways and show you how YOU have hurt yourself and others by believing lies.

He says repent and turn to Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Why would someone that has the life and love of Christ in them murder someone? We are not under the law of Moses for anything. We have new exciting laws or principles we live by in the New Covenant.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Ariel82]

The Law that condemns many, but Jesus came to save and if you have the Holy Spirit you can see past this verse to the Love God places in your heart for even your enemies.

*note: just because you don't believe them to be your brother, doesn't mean God hasn't adopted them.
*****

1 John 3:15 ►
New International Version
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

New Living Translation
Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don't have eternal life within them.

English Standard Version
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.

Berean Literal Bible
Everyone hating his brother is a murderer; and you know that any murderer does not have eternal life abiding in him.

New American Standard Bible
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

King James Bible
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[PennEd]

Depends on what YOUR definition of "freedom" is.

If by freedom you mean if a Christian DID commit murder would they still be saved. I believe the answer is yes. Just like if a Christian committed a lie, or gossip, or YOU name it, they would still be saved. Because we are saved by the blood of Christ, NOT by following Christ.

Now, it's silly to think a Christian, or anybody else, would be "free" to murder someone. First off, the Holy Spirit is working in us to conform us to Christ's likeness. So as we follow closer and closer the desire to commit such acts dissipates.
Secondly, there are ALWAYS consequences to our sin, and murder would be no exception.

Your question in and of itself seems to me to come from a carnal mind.

 

[Ariel82]

I believe we disagree g777.

I believe God's moral laws are eternal and people don't understand the depth of them.

 

[Chris1975]

Why would someone that has the life and love of Christ in them murder someone? We are not under the law of Moses for anything. We have new exciting laws or principles we live by in the New Covenant.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

- Jesus gave us two new commandments (I will summary paraphrase : Love God ; Love your Neighbour).
- Murder is neither loving your neighbour, nor Loving God

Now - did Jesus nail the commandments he gave (Love God, Love your neighbour) to the cross. Was it dispensed with? Or not? Under the new covenant?

 

[Chris1975]

Depends on what YOUR definition of "freedom" is.

If by freedom you mean if a Christian DID commit murder would they still be saved. I believe the answer is yes. Just like if a Christian committed a lie, or gossip, or YOU name it, they would still be saved. Because we are saved by the blood of Christ, NOT by following Christ.

Now, it's silly to think a Christian, or anybody else, would be "free" to murder someone. First off, the Holy Spirit is working in us to conform us to Christ's likeness. So as we follow closer and closer the desire to commit such acts dissipates.
Secondly, there are ALWAYS consequences to our sin, and murder would be no exception.

Your question in and of itself seems to me to come from a carnal mind.

Your comment above in Red above. Care to explain that a bit more?