Not By Works

[VCO]

If this is the case, then why did Peter in Acts 2:37-38 instruct these new believers differently. Read it if you would, and comment on this passage. Thank you.

I do not see any difference there, other than it was the birthday of the Church. The Inauguration if you prefer. HERE IS THE VERSE THAT SHOWS YOU THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Yes, repentance {Conviction} is part of it, but HE is the Baptizer, that Immerses us into the body of CHRIST:


1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


See, it is a misconception that we were baptized into one Spirit.


Acts 2:37-38 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Perhaps if I list the Functions of the Holy Spirit, it will help.


HE will bring CONVICTION, leading to REPENTANCE.

HE will teach you ALL THINGS, giving understanding for the WORD.

HE will Immerse us into the Spiritual BODY of CHRIST.

HE will pour GOD's LOVE in our Hearts, to manifest Godly Love for our Brethren.

HE will gift or empower you to do the work of the Ministry, as our Pastor teaches us to do that work.

HE will indwell us forever, as it says "HE may abide with you forever."


Those are the Primary Functions of the Holy Spirit, and their are others.


How does the Holy Spirit empower us to do the work of the Ministry?



Romans 12:3-13 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Name a good work that a Christian does that an unbeliever can't do, Ralph.

(Matthew 7:24)

Live according to the Spirit.


Cast out devils, lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover.


Pray to God in Jesus name for the salvation of their house hold.


Intercede for the lost.





JPT

 

[benhur]

It isn't so. Notice in the verses you gave, they received the Holy Spirit with the laying on of hands, NOT baptism. The Holy Spirit is portrayed in Scripture as being given at different times.

In this scripture the people obviously believed, but had not received the HS (is that odd) Paul then gave them the HS by the laying on of hands, after they were water baptized. Your filter demands that as you believe, you receive the HS and after that, water baptism is optional. Do you see the difference?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In this scripture the people obviously believed, but had not received the HS (is that odd) Paul then gave them the HS by the laying on of hands, after they were water baptized. Your filter demands that as you believe, you receive the HS and after that, water baptism is optional. Do you see the difference?

so let me get this straight

you would rather base your eternal destination on the fact of whether or not you were immersed (baptized) in water by another human being

then base your eternal destination in the fact of whether or not you were baptized by the HS as John the Baptist and Jesus both promised we would?

In other words, you would rather base your salvation on being baptized by man, then being baptized by God?

 

[benhur]

Have another read.

Mark 16:14-18: "Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved ; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Did you notice in verse 16 it does not say "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned" because the focus is on believing, not baptism. Water baptism plays no role in salvation. It follows salvation.

Jesus says "he that believes and is baptized will be saved". I will follow what Jesus says, and if Paul says something that seems to contradict Jesus, I will have to work hard to reconcile the two.

Jesus also says, "he that does not believe shall be damned". He knows that if you do not believe you will not go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS, so Jesus did not have to say it.

The scripture does not empahsize belief only, it emphasizes belief and being baptized in order to have salvation. Why would Jesus say, 'believe and be baptized' if water baptism was not important to salvation?

Why would you rush over what it takes to be saved, and emphasize what it takes to be damned? Do you think because it does not mention baptism in order to be damned, that it must not be important in order to be saved?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus says "he that believes and is baptized will be saved". I will follow what Jesus says, and if Paul says something that seems to contradict Jesus, I will have to work hard to reconcile the two.

Jesus also says, "he that does not believe shall be damned". He knows that if you do not believe you will not go out and be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the HS, so Jesus did not have to say it.

The scripture does not empahsize belief only, it emphasizes belief and being baptized in order to have salvation. Why would Jesus say, 'believe and be baptized' if water baptism was not important to salvation?

Why would you rush over what it takes to be saved, and emphasize what it takes to be damned? Do you think because it does not mention baptism in order to be damned, that it must not be important in order to be saved?

Jesus did NOT say he who believes and is baptised in water. That is your view. Again, Can you answer my question about what your basing your eternal destination on? The baptism performed by Man or the one performed by God?

 

[benhur]

so let me get this straight

you would rather base your eternal destination on the fact of whether or not you were immersed (baptized) in water by another human being

then base your eternal destination in the fact of whether or not you were baptized by the HS as John the Baptist and Jesus both promised we would?

In other words, you would rather base your salvation on being baptized by man, then being baptized by God?

Not quite. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, I was also baptized of the HS. So my experience is the same as yours.

The scriptures also talk about the idea of water baptism too. So I have decided to be baptized in water also, yes, by man.

So I have based my eternal destination on what the scriptures tell me, and have done what both Jesus and Paul tells us to do:

1) believe in Jesus Christ
2) be baptized of the HS (by God)
3) be water baptized (by man, the same as Jesus was)

I think the basis of my eternal destination is firmly rooted in the scritpures and is built on the firm rock of Jesus Christ.

Tell me if I am wrong?

 

[Katy-follower]

Amen! If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Exactly, and what does that say about all those deathbed conversions, and the ones that said a prayer from the twin towers that day, because none of them had access to water. Neither did the thief on the cross.

Some would believe I'm doomed to hell, because I've yet to have a water baptism. I've just not found a church yet, and I wanted to have it done in Israel anyway, following in the footsteps (and also because I have Israeli ancestry) so have always wanted to do it over there, but I know where it takes place is not important to God.

The catholic church has driven a lot of fear into so many with that doctrine. My cousin is a hardcore catholic, and after she had her first baby she was terrified if anything happened to her baby before the baptism that God would send the baby to hell! Not to mention, she was adamant about there being a mass at my grandmother's funeral (despite her Will saying she didn't want one) because my cousin really believed her soul was at risk without it! Sad

 

[BillG]

Not quite. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, I was also baptized of the HS. So my experience is the same as yours.

The scriptures also talk about the idea of water baptism too. So I have decided to be baptized in water also, yes, by man.

So I have based my eternal destination on what the scriptures tell me, and have done what both Jesus and Paul tells us to do:

1) believe in Jesus Christ
2) be baptized of the HS (by God)
3) be water baptized (by man, the same as Jesus was)

I think the basis of my eternal destination is firmly rooted in the scritpures and is built on the firm rock of Jesus Christ.

Tell me if I am wrong?

Obviously the baptism of John is different from the baptism in the name of Jesus, by immersion and the HS.

I don't believe baptism saves.
But I do believe that when someone professes faith in Jesus they should be baptised straight away.
To me it's a spiritual marker.

Alas today the church makes baptism a hurdle as such.

It seems that a person has to prove themselves in order to be baptised.

Yet we find

Acts 8:34-38


34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not quite. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, I was also baptized of the HS. So my experience is the same as yours.

The scriptures also talk about the idea of water baptism too. So I have decided to be baptized in water also, yes, by man.

So I have based my eternal destination on what the scriptures tell me, and have done what both Jesus and Paul tells us to do:

1) believe in Jesus Christ
2) be baptized of the HS (by God)
3) be water baptized (by man, the same as Jesus was)

I think the basis of my eternal destination is firmly rooted in the scritpures and is built on the firm rock of Jesus Christ.

Tell me if I am wrong?

So your placing your eternal destiny in both the baptism of water and the baptism of the spirit.


I agree with you in one aspect. There are many baptisms Yet paul tells us in Ephesians, there is one lord, and one baptism.
So how can both be involved?

(Ps I was baptised to. However, I do not base my eternity on that baptism)

 

[benhur]

Obviously the baptism of John is different from the baptism in the name of Jesus, by immersion and the HS.

I don't believe baptism saves.
But I do believe that when someone professes faith in Jesus they should be baptised straight away.
To me it's a spiritual marker.

Alas today the church makes baptism a hurdle as such.

It seems that a person has to prove themselves in order to be baptised.

Yet we find

Acts 8:34-38


34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Yes, you are correct, baptism should not be a hurdle.

 

[benhur]

So your placing your eternal destiny in both the baptism of water and the baptism of the spirit.


I agree with you in one aspect. There are many baptisms Yet paul tells us in Ephesians, there is one lord, and one baptism.
So how can both be involved?

(Ps I was baptised to. However, I do not base my eternity on that baptism)

Jesus says this:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe that being born of the water is not your birth. I believe it is water baptism. Therefore I received both. You were wise to receive both.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus says this:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe that being born of the water is not your birth. I believe it is water baptism. Therefore I received both. You were wise to receive both.

There is no way it is baptism. If it was, Jesus would have said so in John 3: 16 (something that important should not have been left to guess)

What jesus is doing is differentiating between that which is born of flesh, vs that which is born of spirit. The water there can be either the waters of physical birth, or the HS (Water is a representative of the HS See John 4)

Now, you did not answer my question, Paul said in eph 4 there is one baptism. Is it HS baptism or is it Water? It can not be both.

 

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[h=1]2 Timothy 1:7[/h] [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.



I reject any doctrine which teaches we must come to God out of fear. God loves us and wants us to come to Him out of love for Him and what He has done for us.

 

[dcontroversal]

wrong as usual. it is BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves. His imputed righteousness makes us worthy to eneter the Kingdom. ( you know, the thing you call a neat little trick that does not work).

your salvation is not a joint operation between you and Jesus. it is all Him. Titus 3.

Amen and the Cross is enough.......faith saves a man eternally....works have nothing to do with obtaining eternal salvation.....He that BELIEVES ON THE SON is having everlasting life!

 

[dcontroversal]

so let me get this straight

you would rather base your eternal destination on the fact of whether or not you were immersed (baptized) in water by another human being

then base your eternal destination in the fact of whether or not you were baptized by the HS as John the Baptist and Jesus both promised we would?

In other words, you would rather base your salvation on being baptized by man, then being baptized by God?

What is tragic is the fact that those who believe that water immersion adds to that which is done by Christ through faith is as far from the thruth as the East is from the West......immersion is to the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T. A identifier, a testimony, a picture or painting...an act of obedience which does not facillitate or add to salvation........

 

[benhur]

There is no way it is baptism. If it was, Jesus would have said so in John 3: 16 (something that important should not have been left to guess)

What jesus is doing is differentiating between that which is born of flesh, vs that which is born of spirit. The water there can be either the waters of physical birth, or the HS (Water is a representative of the HS See John 4)

Now, you did not answer my question, Paul said in eph 4 there is one baptism. Is it HS baptism or is it Water? It can not be both.

To answer your question, I believe it refers to the water baptism.

Born of the water cannot be the waters that flow from a woman at child birth. That is not water, but is part water and mostly urine from the baby. It is called amniotic fluid. Jesus said water, not amniotic fluid (a large % of which is baby urine).

As far as the HS being represented as the water in John 4, good analogy, but it has no connection in any way to being born of the water in John 3. Besides, if Jesus thought the water in John 4 was the same water in John 3, he would be saying in essence, "a man has to be born of the HS and born of the HS. He would not say that, and he did not say that.

Being born of the water is a reference to being laid into the waters of baptism and then being raised up out of the water, or being born again as you come out of a watery grave. Your old sinful person is laid to rest, and your new person in Christ is born as you come out of that watery grave. There is a lot of symbolism attached to a water baptism. But it does fit nicely with what Jesus said in John 3. I also submit that if you are not baptized, you will not be able to fulfill all righteousness, the righteousness that Jesus talked about at his baptism. (Matthew 3:15)

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus did NOT say he who believes and is baptised in water. That is your view. Again, Can you answer my question about what your basing your eternal destination on? The baptism performed by Man or the one performed by God?

Amen....Jesus said, "He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life."

I am fairly confident that the following is easy to understand.....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE! <---this is what saves!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To answer your question, I believe it refers to the water baptism.

Born of the water cannot be the waters that flow from a woman at child birth. That is not water, but is part water and mostly urine from the baby. It is called amniotic fluid. Jesus said water, not amniotic fluid (a large % of which is baby urine).

As far as the HS being represented as the water in John 4, good analogy, but it has no connection in any way to being born of the water in John 3. Besides, if Jesus thought the water in John 4 was the same water in John 3, he would be saying in essence, "a man has to be born of the HS and born of the HS. He would not say that, and he did not say that.

Being born of the water is a reference to being laid into the waters of baptism and then being raised up out of the water, or being born again as you come out of a watery grave. Your old sinful person is laid to rest, and your new person in Christ is born as you come out of that watery grave. There is a lot of symbolism attached to a water baptism. But it does fit nicely with what Jesus said in John 3. I also submit that if you are not baptized, you will not be able to fulfill all righteousness, the righteousness that Jesus talked about at his baptism. (Matthew 3:15)

I still can not agree.

No place in John 3 did Jesus even mention baptism. If it was so important as you say, Then Jesus would not have left such an important aspect out (ie, why did he not say, For god so loved the world./ he gave his only begotten sone, that whoever believes in him and is baptised shall never perish but has eternal life) Jesus would not make that mistake.

again. Jesus is talking about 2 births. FLesh vs spirit. (That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit.) which coincide with born of water (flesh) and spirit.

Water does not always mean baptism as your suggesting

1. Eph 5. Washing water by the word
2. John 15: 3 You are already clean by the word
3. Titus 3: 5,. Washing of regeneration (new birth) done by the HS, not by our works of righteousness (here is where new birth and washing is seen together, and it is the HS who does the washing not a work of water baptism)

Now for the third time, again, your ignoring my first question, Paul said one baptism, which is it? Are you going to answer. Or admit you can not?

 

[benhur]

What is tragic is the fact that those who believe that water immersion adds to that which is done by Christ through faith is as far from the thruth as the East is from the West......immersion is to the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T. A identifier, a testimony, a picture or painting...an act of obedience which does not facillitate or add to salvation........

If water baptism is as far from the truth as the East is from the West, why did you get baptized. BTW, you do know that the East and the West do meet at the center.