Not By Works
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Look at the first line in my post #57139.
To me there are a lot of requirements to being saved. The first and most important of all of them is that you believe in Jesus Christ. If you don't get past that hurdle, the game is over. There is no need to talk further about any of the other requirements. So John 3 emphasizes this massively important beginning of your salvation. Not that the others are not important, but believing is so important that Jesus emphasizes it several times in the scriptures, without regard to the others, which he does give time to all through the gospels.
Bottom line is: The most important thing is to believe, but you cannot ignore other requirements that Jesus mentions either. Otherwise you may come up short of making it into heaven. That is why, with all your rhetoric about how useless and unnecessary it is to be baptized, you did go out and do that good work because you wanted to make sure you had all your bases covered. But I really hope you got baptized because you are a good obedient child of God, and you wanted to follow Jesus, and keep his commandments because you love him.
To me there are a lot of requirements to being saved. The first and most important of all of them is that you believe in Jesus Christ. If you don't get past that hurdle, the game is over. There is no need to talk further about any of the other requirements. So John 3 emphasizes this massively important beginning of your salvation. Not that the others are not important, but believing is so important that Jesus emphasizes it several times in the scriptures, without regard to the others, which he does give time to all through the gospels.
Bottom line is: The most important thing is to believe, but you cannot ignore other requirements that Jesus mentions either. Otherwise you may come up short of making it into heaven. That is why, with all your rhetoric about how useless and unnecessary it is to be baptized, you did go out and do that good work because you wanted to make sure you had all your bases covered. But I really hope you got baptized because you are a good obedient child of God, and you wanted to follow Jesus, and keep his commandments because you love him.
E
There is only one requirement to be saved. Not many, and that is to have faith in Jesus (john 3: 16 and many other places) which means you have to repent (if you do not repent you can not have true saving faith)
Adding any work, no matter what it is (water baptism, churhc membership. Taking communion, Giving to the poor. Obeying Gods commands) are adding ones work to the equation of grace through faith. And is a false gospel. Period.
Baptism (HS) is a result of the gospel being applied to our lives
Baptism (water) is an act of obedience to the God who SAVED (yes past tense) us and the ability to give a testimony of God to whoever is witnessing your baptism)
Again, Paul said it best, Not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism IS a work of righteousness) But by his mercy, He saved us by the washing (water) and renewal (new birth) OF The HOLY SPIRIT (the one who does the washing and gives us new life)
If I have to do the work of water baptism to be saved, Salvation is NOT by grace, but by works. And if your going to obey one command, You better follow them all. Because if it is of works. We better be perfect.
the penalty of sin is death, It is not being water baptised. The payment can only be paid by death (the cross) Water baptism has NO PART in salvation. Period.
Have you considered "living water?"
In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect Harmony*
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit." He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water.
If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again
In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect Harmony*
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit." He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water.
If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again
Salvation is a one off event based upon faith....it is eternally given at the moment of belief....it is not a process of hoops to jump through, is not losable and is based entirely upon Christ, his work, his shed blood, his promises, his power, his mediatorship and he will finish every work of FAITH he begins in All who are genuinely saved by faith without the added baggage of men and religion!
Again, you are being quite authoritative about this by writing 'Period'. So again, I am going to say, for your sake I hope you are right. I'm covered because I am teaching people that water baptism is important to their salvation. You OTOH are teaching that it is not important to your salvation, but is an act of obedience, but like all acts of obedience, choose for yourself, totally unnecesary if you don't want to get wet all over, for Jesus has you covered by his death on the cross. Many may decide to not get baptized.
If it turns out that baptism is important to their salvation and you helped them decide not to be baptized, there will have to be someone who will have a hard talk with Jesus. So good luck.
If it turns out that baptism is important to their salvation and you helped them decide not to be baptized, there will have to be someone who will have a hard talk with Jesus. So good luck.
There is something ironic here. You must not add anything to faith, except here
is someone adding a negative to faith. You must not do this or believe that or
have this approach.
This is denying the very things it is trying to assert, putting conditions on faith,
while denying one should do this. Faith is faith, without dependency, and applies
irrespective of behavior or even later belief or position. It is like the temporary
lock and load idea, except God decides who locks and loads, because none of this is
us. So if nothing is of us, why even the idea any human can stop Gods working
or even any belief system could oppose Him? It is because though they feel great
antagonism against some, and feel value in applying terms like false teacher etc.
their own belief system denies this has any value.
So any argument is used from either end, not because it is consistent in their
belief system, but as a way of undermining biblical understanding of God.
Once one says God does not care about purity and holiness in believers, you can
live how you want, because you are in the driving seat. They will claim God does
care, which is why He looks at Jesus, but this is just nonsense and a distraction.
Believers are not Holy or cleansed or walking in obedience. It is this why it is a faith
of the world put in christian clothing.
I have faith in Christ and a desire to walk as He walks, and in their theology I am saved.
If they say I am not saved, they already deny their own belief system which is how
absurd they are. It is only their personal conviction and emotional dedication to sound
sensible while speaking this double speak as if it makes any sense or means anything
other than excusing their own sinful behavior.
Let me illustrate double speak. Do not be impure and live a Holy life means, Christ is
our purity by faith, and He is our holiness by faith, so we do not have to be any of
these things, just believe. Except this is not what Paul is saying or the apostles, but
once you can become someone else, you can put all the good stuff as statement of
Christ our shield. This is a form of universalism, God does everything and we have to
do nothing and take no responsibility or change in our lives.
In a nice world, they can live with themselves. If persecution comes and life becomes
hard, they will just fall apart, because they have never entered in and been cleansed in
their hearts. It is this brutal and this false. It is the fruit of wealth and an easy life,
where true testing has passed them by.
Hi Decon, yesterday I made a post about the benefits of attending a, "Fundamentals of the Faith" class, after you are born again. It is highly beneficial for your spiritual growth to learn about your precious new faith. I believe that many of the false teaching that goes on in this forum is a result of a poor understanding of what the bible teaches about eternal salvation. Only Jesus can remove the veil from their eyes that they may see and believe the glory of the gospel.
Some people on this forum may have been raise in a christian cult and they are not rooted and grounded in the Truth. Christian cults are highly legalistic and that may be where all of their indoctrination emerges from. Like you said in your post; "those in error will only see what they want to see....just like the Pharisees of old." Most seem like very angry people struggling to understand the truth, Jesus can remove the veil from their eyes if they will only repent and believe the Good News.
2Corinthians3:15,16
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Some people on this forum may have been raise in a christian cult and they are not rooted and grounded in the Truth. Christian cults are highly legalistic and that may be where all of their indoctrination emerges from. Like you said in your post; "those in error will only see what they want to see....just like the Pharisees of old." Most seem like very angry people struggling to understand the truth, Jesus can remove the veil from their eyes if they will only repent and believe the Good News.
2Corinthians3:15,16
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
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READ IT AGAIN:
John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit,he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.
READ VERSE 7, HE DID NOT CHANGE SUBJECT IN MID STREAM.
He is comparing the need to be both born naturally, to the EXTREME need to have your dead human spirit to be born again, into eternal life.
Climbing into a Baptistery, will accomplished two main things.
1. You will automatically become eligible for church membership.
2. You will go into that Baptistery a dry sinner, and you will come out a wet sinner.
Yes we walk in Obedience, but that is not what John 3:5 is talking about. Salvation is the Immersion of the Believer into the Body of Jesus Christ. But it is NOT SALVATION, that happen the MOMENT you truly believed.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body, {including the thief on the cross} --whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
It is spiritual baptism that SAVES, the Immersion into the body of Christ. All Christian Water Baptism is really an after thought of publically identifying with Jesus Christ.
What did Jesus say?
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
Matt 7:24-25
A wise man - hears words, puts them into practice builds their house upon a rock.
Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, said we hear His words, we put them into practice and we have
a firm foundation.
Where did Jesus say, God listens to the words, God puts them into practice,
God builds us on this firm foundation?
Somehow you people are not listening to Jesus, the one you claim is your Lord.
If you are not listening to Him, you are not part of Him. Are you really this deaf and
blind? Does this brain washing and assumption, that God does not believe in you
and your ability to listen, understand and move, that you deny what He is saying?
It appears so. God who made you clean through the cross, empowers you to walk
in His ways. But maybe you are not actually clean and not empowered. Maybe
you are destitute orphans playing in a playground without the master?
If you cannot hear Him, then I understand. The more you write, the more your
lostness and impurity shines through. We know we know the Lord because we obey
His commands and love His people, Amen.
The cross speaks to our hearts and brings us into new life, putting to death the ways
of this world and leading us into the Holy Spirit.
Someone mentioned anger. The free grace group over time have expressed such anger
and frustration, just interacting makes them so annoyed and ballistic, they literally cannot
continue sharing, and have to leave such forums to calm down. Continuous mention of
ignore lists, illustrates this continual anger which they find impossible to come to terms with,
ironic that.
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
Matt 7:24-25
A wise man - hears words, puts them into practice builds their house upon a rock.
Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, said we hear His words, we put them into practice and we have
a firm foundation.
Where did Jesus say, God listens to the words, God puts them into practice,
God builds us on this firm foundation?
Somehow you people are not listening to Jesus, the one you claim is your Lord.
If you are not listening to Him, you are not part of Him. Are you really this deaf and
blind? Does this brain washing and assumption, that God does not believe in you
and your ability to listen, understand and move, that you deny what He is saying?
It appears so. God who made you clean through the cross, empowers you to walk
in His ways. But maybe you are not actually clean and not empowered. Maybe
you are destitute orphans playing in a playground without the master?
If you cannot hear Him, then I understand. The more you write, the more your
lostness and impurity shines through. We know we know the Lord because we obey
His commands and love His people, Amen.
The cross speaks to our hearts and brings us into new life, putting to death the ways
of this world and leading us into the Holy Spirit.
Someone mentioned anger. The free grace group over time have expressed such anger
and frustration, just interacting makes them so annoyed and ballistic, they literally cannot
continue sharing, and have to leave such forums to calm down. Continuous mention of
ignore lists, illustrates this continual anger which they find impossible to come to terms with,
ironic that.