Not By Works
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All of us can be guilty of confirmation bias at some point or another, but in most cases it comes from those who are still spiritually immature. Many will not post on particular subjects that they do not feel confident about adequately defending, while others will jump into the fray without having a clue what they are talking about and are incapable of coherently refuting the opposition.
Opinions are one thing, but again, truth is not a subjective thing when dealing with the Christian worldview. Scripture clearly defines and reveals objective truths of God that cannot be disputed. I understand that there are peripheral subjects that we can agree to disagree on, but then there are other "core" truths that are undeniable and must be defended. This thread is in defense of one of those indisputable truths.
We have to look at scripture as a whole and not a little verse here, a little verse there, just because it looks nice and confirms our presuppositions. We can very easily make scripture contradict itself this way and abuse it. We have to look at the whole picture. Most who want to jump on here and make claims haven't even read through the entire bible once, or at lest the New Testament for that matter. I was guilty of it when I first came here. In fact I wasn't even saved yet when I started here, but felt I knew enough to make claims. Wow, was that an embarrassing and shameful experience.
You yourself have made some pretty bizarre claims but in the light of legitimate opposition resort to "well we all have different opinions" and in several posts imply that some of us only believe what we believe because some man said it, while refusing to address scripture that backs up legitimate opposing views.
What's funny is seeing the people who accuse others of hanging on the words of men as their source of truth, quickly run to websites of people who confirm their own presuppositions and use their material as their defense. If someone doesn't understand the subject being discussed enough to defend their own point of view, it might be a good idea to remain quiet and learn from those who can.
And for the record, I don't identify as a Calvinist for this very reason and prefer the words Monergist or Reformed.
Opinions are one thing, but again, truth is not a subjective thing when dealing with the Christian worldview. Scripture clearly defines and reveals objective truths of God that cannot be disputed. I understand that there are peripheral subjects that we can agree to disagree on, but then there are other "core" truths that are undeniable and must be defended. This thread is in defense of one of those indisputable truths.
We have to look at scripture as a whole and not a little verse here, a little verse there, just because it looks nice and confirms our presuppositions. We can very easily make scripture contradict itself this way and abuse it. We have to look at the whole picture. Most who want to jump on here and make claims haven't even read through the entire bible once, or at lest the New Testament for that matter. I was guilty of it when I first came here. In fact I wasn't even saved yet when I started here, but felt I knew enough to make claims. Wow, was that an embarrassing and shameful experience.
You yourself have made some pretty bizarre claims but in the light of legitimate opposition resort to "well we all have different opinions" and in several posts imply that some of us only believe what we believe because some man said it, while refusing to address scripture that backs up legitimate opposing views.
What's funny is seeing the people who accuse others of hanging on the words of men as their source of truth, quickly run to websites of people who confirm their own presuppositions and use their material as their defense. If someone doesn't understand the subject being discussed enough to defend their own point of view, it might be a good idea to remain quiet and learn from those who can.
And for the record, I don't identify as a Calvinist for this very reason and prefer the words Monergist or Reformed.
AMEN....there are core doctrinal truths that cannot be disputed in light of scripture......I have always said...ONE absolute truth concerning everything that can be found in the word of GOD......the Holy Spirit will lead all who are honest with the truth to the same conclusions concerning said foundational doctrinal truths......
And what is Faith dccontroversal? Faith is the substance of the unseen and evidence of what is yet to come. Can you explain faith from scripture? It's not magic or belief. It's not heresy to say faith is what Messiah Yeshua did and the way he walks. To say faith is just to believe is warping scripture to fit our needs and not what God wants of us which is obedience. Don't you see the Father honestly desires us to worship him in spirit and Truth. His word says the law is of the spirit for us in Messiah and His whole word is truth. Your negating the law of the spirit by continued rebellion against the word of YHWH Elohim and as such you are making Messiah to be a lier as well. Taking something by faith is just taking God's word for it...
The point is pre election is just not true other than the fact God pre elected all who will believe. I may not explain it best but i doubt anyone does.
To say a infant child who passed away is pre chosen to go to hell or heaven is just against a logical Loving God who honor free will and choice to love him or not.
To say a infant child who passed away is pre chosen to go to hell or heaven is just against a logical Loving God who honor free will and choice to love him or not.
Denial of God's foreknowledge and omniscience. Misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the camp you are debating as it relates to man's responsibility for their fall and transgression of the law (you think we blame God and you think that we think and promote we are just God's puppets). Denial of God's sovereign will over his own creation.
False accusations without scriptural refutation.
It appears you believe people can lose their salvation if they "don't remain in the faith", making God's promises of no effect as well as denying his power to keep those who have believed. I admit I may have misunderstood this comment so correct me if I'm wrong.
Pitting scripture against itself as you refuse to contrast verses that support your belief with those that contradict it. We have no choice. God changes our heart, scripture is clear. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God. God commands us to do impossible things all the time. He commands us to be perfect. Are you perfect? Why not? God said to be.
More misrepresentation of those you are debating. Undermining God's omniscience and saying time is fluid and changeable and God has to readjust based on what we choose. This isn't the Christian God, it's an impotent god that is subject to man. Misrepresenting God is a dangerous thing. I'd challenge you to back up your statement here about infinite choices and the end process changing with scripture. God is a God of order and created all things with one possible outcome for his own purposes. You are still pitting scripture against itself here as you have no understanding of God's sovereign will opposed to man's bound will.
Very harsh judgments and more misunderstandings and misrepresentations.
False accusations without scriptural refutation.
It appears you believe people can lose their salvation if they "don't remain in the faith", making God's promises of no effect as well as denying his power to keep those who have believed. I admit I may have misunderstood this comment so correct me if I'm wrong.
Pitting scripture against itself as you refuse to contrast verses that support your belief with those that contradict it. We have no choice. God changes our heart, scripture is clear. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God. God commands us to do impossible things all the time. He commands us to be perfect. Are you perfect? Why not? God said to be.
More misrepresentation of those you are debating. Undermining God's omniscience and saying time is fluid and changeable and God has to readjust based on what we choose. This isn't the Christian God, it's an impotent god that is subject to man. Misrepresenting God is a dangerous thing. I'd challenge you to back up your statement here about infinite choices and the end process changing with scripture. God is a God of order and created all things with one possible outcome for his own purposes. You are still pitting scripture against itself here as you have no understanding of God's sovereign will opposed to man's bound will.
Very harsh judgments and more misunderstandings and misrepresentations.
I didnt deny Gods all knowing and seeing. I deny your interpretation. I posted scripture which you tried to make it fit your beliefs and then couldn't explain why God was being patient for all. You skipped that one and posted a few of your favorite scripture to promote pre election and then try to say we are mere puppets in Gods hands.
I use my phone a lot so i cant get into heavy detail. But frankly i didnt feel the need to care because there is no point in debating you. What would it prove?
Ill explain why you misinterpreted and you will explain why i misinterpreted. So i finding things to another day under the sun, same opposition with same crazy beliefs who say my beliefs are crazy too.
Well maybe we are all crazy
I use my phone a lot so i cant get into heavy detail. But frankly i didnt feel the need to care because there is no point in debating you. What would it prove?
Ill explain why you misinterpreted and you will explain why i misinterpreted. So i finding things to another day under the sun, same opposition with same crazy beliefs who say my beliefs are crazy too.
Well maybe we are all crazy
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
I can post a ton more if you need me to.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
I can post a ton more if you need me to.
I refuted the "all" statement with scripture. Go back and look, I'm not going back through the thread again.
But here is one to ponder:
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Does all here mean the entire world? Are you a universalist?
But here is one to ponder:
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Does all here mean the entire world? Are you a universalist?
Nothing there about man's choice.
Here is another one from Jesus himself:
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Notice here that Jesus says you do not believe because you are not among my sheep, not you are not among my sheep because you don't believe. He continues to say that his sheep are given to him by the Father. Nothing about free will here. Choice seems to be God's, no?
Here is another one from Jesus himself:
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Notice here that Jesus says you do not believe because you are not among my sheep, not you are not among my sheep because you don't believe. He continues to say that his sheep are given to him by the Father. Nothing about free will here. Choice seems to be God's, no?